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Featured You must be born again to be saved?

Discussion in 'Controversial Christian Theology' started by mathinspiration, Jan 25, 2018.

  1. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

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    Do you sin?
     
  2. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

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    What does that matter? Again, Jews as well as converts use the Mikveh numerous times. Yeshua makes NO mention of converts or baptism to Nakdimon, who was a Jew AND a Pharisee. Yet if that were the case it would have been easy for Him to do so...
     
  3. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    It matters because you apparently have been missing my point and talking about things I have not. Again, my entire point has been on the use of the mikveh as part of the process of converting. Every other use of the mikveh is outside the scope of the point I've been making and so bringing it up has been non-sequitur.

    If someone asks me one way they can get to Los Angeles, and if I say that you can take Highway 101 to reach Los Angeles, then someone saying that you can also take Highway 101 to reach San Francisco is irrelevant when the whole point is getting to Los Angeles, not San Francisco. It's an entirely different conversation altogether.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  4. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

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    I understand what you are saying. Yes the Mikveh was used for conversion. My point that you do not seem to grasp, is that YOU are trying to push this into the conversation between Yeshua and Nakdimon. I am saying it has nothing to do with the Mikveh or converts or baptism.

    He plainly says to enter The Kingdom, you must be born of water and or the Spirit. What has been born from the flesh is flesh, and what has been born from the spirit is spirit. Flesh and blood can NOT enter. He then goes on to explain everlasting life...not conversion, not baptism and not the Mikveh...
     
  5. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    So where can one find a birth of "water and the Spirit", in your opinion? Seeing as you are arguing against two thousand years of consistent and unanimous Christian teaching on this matter; it seems that you should have a very good argument to support your position here if you are going to argue against what has been believed since the beginning.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  6. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

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    I understand that. I am not arguing against baptism. I am saying that is NOT what Yeshua was discussing with Nakdimon. We have a physical birth and a physical death...correct? We ALL do. We also have a spiritual birth (born again) and for those who do not believe, a second death, a spiritual one. So we must be born of water AND the Spirit before we can enter The Kingdom. Flesh and blood can NOT enter. Mortal MUST put on immortality to enter. Born again.

    In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death
     
  7. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

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    Thank you and forgive me if I have offended you in any way.
     
  8. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    So your position is that the kingdom refers exclusively to the Age to Come? So how do you deal with, for example, Titus 3:5 which says we have been washed by the waters of regeneration (i.e. new birth)? Or the fact that throughout the Gospels Christ teaches us that the kingdom is "at hand" and even "in your midst"? In the beginning of Mark's Gospel we read that Christ came saying, "The kingdom of God is at hand, repent and believe the good news!" and in Luke's Gospel when Jesus is surrounded by His opponents He says "The kingdom does not come with observation ... the kingdom is in your midst." Because the kingdom certainly has a fullness that is found at Christ's Parousia and in the Age to Come, but the kingdom has a present reality as well: for Christ the King has come and He reigns at the right hand of the Father, and we, in Christ, are even now "seated in heavenly places with Christ Jesus" as St. Paul says.

    All who have been made new in Jesus are in the kingdom of God, even now. That is why the new birth cannot refer to the future resurrection of the body, but refers to where God makes us new. Where does God make us new? We are not awaiting a new birth, we have received it by God's grace by the Holy Spirit even now, which is precisely why St. Paul says we have been washed by the water of regeneration and renewal of the Holy Spirit; and also that when we were dead in our transgressions and the uncircumcision of our flesh He made us alive together with Him; for we have received a circumcision made without hands in our Baptism (Colossians 2:11-15).

    -CryptoLutheran
     
  9. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

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    There is nothing I need to deal with there in Titus (YOU added "the new birth"). Yeshua said "My Kingdom is not of this world". Yes the Kingdom IS a reality! Well, no, flesh and blood can NOT enter...
     
  10. JacksBratt

    JacksBratt Searching for Truth

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    Well, I think that is a bit of a technicality...I have never heard that one before. I, 100%, believe that this thief was saved by the blood of Christ and his belief in who Christ was.

    I disagree. God is quite unmoved by the beliefs of men. If you need baptism to be saved... then you need baptism to be saved... you cannot cherry pick who is given a pass or jumps the que.

    It could be argued that every human has had ample time to accept Christ and be baptized... just because your dying on a battle field doesn't mean you get special treatment...and can skip this step... if it is a prerequisite.

    The people of these obscure tribes that never hear the gospel, will still be judged to see if they are saved. Only God can do this. He gives us a glimpse of the way they will be held accountable with this verse:

    Romans 1:20King James Version (KJV)

    20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:



    Other than the thief on the cross... we ALL have had the knowledge and capacity and time, in our lives, to act according to this rule of being baptized.


    Well, only God knows their heart. Are they saved because they have already made the decision? Are they not saved because they didn't go forward at the actual event?
    A lot of questions of the sort that only God knows for sure.

    What if, after the alter call, they all "planned" to get baptized?
    What if anyone "planned" to get baptized but the church was booked for other special services? The Baptismal tank was being repaired? The person had to go out of town for business and had to delay it?

    The list of "what ifs" is huge.

    Salvation is simple and it's not any physical action or ceremony. Salvation is a change of heart and acceptance of Christ...


    There are many verses that speak of salvation and totally ignore the mention of baptism.

    Baptism is the implementation of a Law that is imposed by men. Why is it that men always have to make some "rule" or "event" or some act of "doing"?

    Of course we have to "do" things. However the connection is "doing" something that "earns" the reward.

    Acceptance of a gift is "doing" but, as I said, accepting the keys to a car is not "doing" any action that could be accepted as justification for "earning" the car.

    We, as humans, are incapable of ever "doing" enough to earn our salvation. Certainly "accepting" Christs gift is not "doing" anything considering the magnitude of the gift.

    Yes, lots of scripture... not all include baptism.


    Some here believe that "believing" is "doing" something.

    Ya, that's some pretty cryptic scripture. I'll have to go through that slowly, later, when I have time to digest it.


    I agree, and thank you too.
     
  11. ViaCrucis

    ViaCrucis Evangelical Catholic of the Augsburg Confession

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    Regeneration, or in Greek παλιγγενεσία, literally means "again-birth", "regeneration" is a literal translation of παλιγγενεσία. Regeneration is new birth, or being born again.

    Your right, Christ's kingdom is not of this κόσμος, because the kingdom is a very different thing than the kingdoms of this world. In God's kingdom might doesn't make right, but instead the least is greatest and the last is first. The upside-down kingdom of God is where the prostitute, tax-collector, the sinner, the leper, the widow, the orphan, and all the rejected, unloved, and unlovely of the world have a place at God's Table. Flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom, that is true; because this mortal must put on immortality and the corruptible must put on the incorruptible.

    The kingdom is both now and not yet. That the kingdom is in all its fullness at our Lord's coming in glory, the resurrection of the dead, and the renewal of all things doesn't mean that the kingdom does not have present reality of which we are partakers by the grace of God through faith. Because we are, because the kingdom does not come with observation, the kingdom is manifest in the King Messiah, Jesus our Lord; by His life, death, resurrection, ascension, reign at the right hand of the Father, and coming again on the Last Day to make new all things.

    There is the now and the not yet of the kingdom.

    -CryptoLutheran
     
    Last edited: Jan 29, 2018
  12. Darrel Slugoski

    Darrel Slugoski Member Supporter

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    I agree some Catholics are not saved because they have no relationship with Christ , I have that fear too. . But at the same time, we , the Baptised , need to respond through Faith and works . Works alone wont save us . This really is the Catholic understanding . It is not faith verses works, but Faith and works and Gods Grace working together . We cooperate with Gods grace or we can turn our backs on Gods free gift . Many Catholics do . Weeds among the wheat . I believe you are saved by the way .
     
  13. Darrel Slugoski

    Darrel Slugoski Member Supporter

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    I agree
     
  14. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Senior Member Supporter

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    Hi Mathinspiration, I thought the title of today's message from Dr. Sproul's daily broadcast called Renewing Your Mind seemed like something you might want to listen to.

    It's called:

    Born of the Spirit
    A Broadcast with R.C. Sproul

    Why must people be born again to see the kingdom of God? In this message from his series The Person and Work of the Holy Spirit, R.C. Sproul describes why rebirth is necessary and corrects some common misconceptions about being born of the Spirit.

    And you can listen to it here. (it's about 23 minutes long, I believe) Enjoy :)

    Yours and His,
    David
    Renewing Your Mind | Born of the Spirit | Jan 29, 2018
     
    Last edited: Jan 31, 2018
  15. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

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    Well Yeshua uses the same term in Matthew 19:28 ...and in that context it has nothing to do with baptism. Here He is absolutely speaking regarding The Kingdom.
     
  16. Yeshua HaDerekh

    Yeshua HaDerekh Men can dream of truth, but then cant live with it

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    Well Yeshua uses the same term (παλιγγενεσία) in Matthew 19:28 ...and in that context it has nothing to do with baptism. Here He is absolutely speaking regarding The Kingdom.
     
  17. Brokenhill

    Brokenhill Praise God, i'm satisifed.

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    I'm looking at the entire book. Vs. 10 implies that the Word would have been previously in them. And then vs. 1-2 of chapter 2 clarifies it:
    "My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and He Himself is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for those of the whole world."

    "My little children" and the fact that he makes a distinction between "we" and "the whole world" leads us to believe he's speaking to people who are already saved in chapter 1.
     
  18. 1stcenturylady

    1stcenturylady Spirit-filled follower of Christ Supporter

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    It is the Semitic style of writing, which depicts contrasts. 5, 7, and 9 are about God and light. 6, 8, and 10 are about those in darkness without Christ. The same contrasts can be seen in chapter 3. And chapter 4:1-3 is about those false teachers who have infiltrated the church. Happy studying! :)
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2018
  19. Brokenhill

    Brokenhill Praise God, i'm satisifed.

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    Sure it is, but what's wrong with that?

    I don't disagree with what you're saying. That's why I would never bank on potential exceptions or lead anyone else to believe that. My main point is that Jesus was clear on what it takes to become a child of God, and that includes baptism. Period.
    I was just saying if there was an exception, I can't say one way or the other--that's 100% in God's hands.
    I don't disagree with this.
    It sounds like you're now agreeing with my original point towards you.

    Exactly.
    This is why we just stick to what we know from Holy Scripture.

    I will say that are plenty of ways to be baptized, and in Churches of Christ (where I attend), I have heard multiple stories of people getting baptized in a swimming pool in the middle of the night.
    Our preachers are HAPPY to do whatever it takes for you to respond to the gospel.

    According to scripture, it involves a combination of things. I would agree, by way of summary, that a change of heart and acceptance of Christ is what salvation entails...but those things include confession and baptism.

    I already answered this point. Just because baptism isn't always mentioned specifically in the context of salvation every time, doesn't mean it's not essential. We have to take ALL scripture as a whole to understand what the will of God is.
    Although my guess is that more often than not, baptism is indeed mentioned in these passages. If you read through the book of Acts, conversion story after conversion story involves baptism...and it takes place ASAP.
    On the contrary, why do men have to ignore clear commandments straight from Jesus because they are so afraid of anything remotely close to "legalism"?
    The baptism of John was "from Heaven", as Jesus pointed out in Luke 20:1-8.
    Baptism into Christ is a commandment FROM Christ--from the very beginning. Mark 16:16
    The apostles simply CONTINUED Jesus' teaching, which is why when the "first gospel sermon" was preached in Acts 2, vs. 38 mentions baptism along with repentance.

    Yes, faith/hope/love/compassion/inner spirituality/etc. are all emphasized with he New Covenant, over the largely physical and ritualistic nature of the Law of Moses--However, physical things are still mentioned all throughout the NT. We are told to sing, pray, give thanks, etc.
    So why is baptism so ludicrous?

    And this is exactly my point!

    The grabbing the keys don't earn you the car, but THEY ARE NECESSARY TO DRIVE.

    Likewise, baptism does not earn salvation, but it's necessary to be in the body of Christ.
    I'm sorry, but you're not really making a valid point here.

    Not all include faith.
    Not all include repentance.
    Not all include a description of what the gospel is.

    Do you need faith even though it's not specifically mentioned in every passage regarding salvation? Yes.
    Do you need to repent? Yes.
    Do you need to understand what the gospel is? Yes.

    It's obvious that believing is doing something. Believing is a free-will action. No one can force you to believe.

    Sure, 1 Peter 3 is fairly dense overall and mentions some unique things, but I think the statement regarding baptism is clear.
    In the way that water "saved" Noah and his family because it kept the boat afloat while the evil people drowned...likewise, water "saves" us not by removing dirt, but because it is symbolically washing away our sins through the blood of Jesus...and the fact that we know that is an appeal to a good conscience.
     
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2018
  20. St_Worm2

    St_Worm2 Senior Member Supporter

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    Hi again Mathinspiration, I believe there are a couple more lectures available from Renewing Your Mind now that you may be interested in hearing (parts 2 & 3 from the same series .. see post #234 above for part 1)


    Enjoy :)

    --David
     
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