You did not chose Me, I chose you.

[aiki]

The difference is our "good works" are done by Christ in us and through us, because we obey the Spirit's leading. You must keep thinking that a Christian still has a carnal nature. No, we don't. We are partaking of the divine nature that doesn't have any desire to sin.

Well, the apostle Paul disagrees with you. Here's what he wrote to the Christians at Corinth:

1 Corinthians 3:1
And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

Though Paul calls the Corinthian Christians "carnal" in this verse, twice in this verse he confirms that he is talking to fellow believers. He refers to the carnal Corinthians as both "brethren" and those who are "in Christ."

1 Corinthians 3:3
3 ...for you are still fleshly...

Here Paul asserts again the fleshliness - or carnality - of the Corinthian believers, though only a few verses later Paul describes these same carnal Christians as "God's building" and "field." (vs. 9)

Paul isn't done with the Corinthian Christians but spends a significant portion of his first letter to them criticizing and rebuking them for their sinfulness. (See chapters 5, 6 and chapter 11). I don't see, then, how you can legitimately assert that Christians have no carnal nature. Paul clearly indicates the opposite.

 

[Hammster]

Me neither. The fact is, Peter is addressing born again Christians who don't sin. Unlike you, Peter is not expecting them to either. So now what does a born again Christian do to keep growing in the Spirit toward glorification? That is what Peter is addressing.

Because of your defeatist beliefs, I'm sure this does need to be spelled out to you.

Peter never addressed Christians who don’t sin since there’s no such a person.

 

[Hammster]

I just wish those who believe grace is a license to sin...

I’m not sure who this is in reference to, but just in case, I will assure you that it does not describe my view.

 

[Oldmantook]

Isn't Universalism that Jesus died for the whole world, so it doesn't matter what you do, the whole world is saved?

Universalism is a broad term with different meanings to different people so one must define it from a biblical perspective. Jesus did die for the sins of the whole world. He is the only way. No one comes to the Father except through Jesus Christ alone. Only the blood of Jesus makes for sufficient atonement. The lake of fire is a literal, physical place where those who do not believe in Jesus and obey are condemned. In this sense evangelical universalism is no different from the evangelical gospel message. The primary difference is evangelical universalism believes that those sinners who end up in the lake of fire, do eventually get saved and are not tormented forever nor are they annihilated. Thus there is still a need to evangelize and make disciples or else people still end up in the lake of fire, though not forever.

 

[Mark Quayle]

We will be saved, if we endure to the end. There is a heaven for the righteous and holy. Rev. 22:11. But it is a daily status of being saved. Jesus prayed for His disciples, specifically, and then He prayed for those who would believe their word. Jesus has given us His Holy Spirit to walk in daily, not to go in and out of. Paul commanded us to not quench the Spirit. We can't just put on a religious face on Sunday, and live like the devil the rest of the week.

There is a test to assure our hearts of whether or not we are in good standing, but it scares many in the Church, so preachers don't want to empty their pews to teach it. I doubt it is even taught in seminary. It is found in 1 John 3:18-24. It is called receiving what you pray for. And the key to answered prayer is being lead by the Spirit and only praying what He tells you to pray. So, of course, we must have the Spirit in order to be led by the Spirit. For me, I had already been going to church for 30 years before I truly repented and was filled with the Spirit. The difference between the first 30 years and the last 42 years is night and day. And I recall when I was growing up wondering if there really was a God because none or my prayers were answered.

I no longer have to wonder.

cc: @Hammster

According to Scripture, the key is found in obedience. Not in prayer answered according to your specifications.

But then, to the evangelist, the reason we are here on earth is to win souls. Oh well.

 

[Dan1988]

So, read Olsen's point above again.

If saving is only a function of God's will then we would expect entering the kingdom of God would be EQUALLY EASY FOR ALL MEN!

Not hard for some (rich), and easier for others (say poor).

Either Jesus is giving us a false statement or a human attribute (richness) somehow limits God's will. If indeed Peter's idea that God wants all to come to a knowledge of him and none to perish, is true.

My understanding of what Jesus was saying about the rich entering heaven, is Gods sovereign power over things which seem impossible with men.

We know that the vast majority of rich people reject the gospel, as they have no need of God. Their money and power provides them with everything they need, but God can save them as well.

You stated in reply to another member that folks can cherry pick the scriptures to make them conform to their view. I hope I'm not doing this but it's just my honest take on this particular Bible passage.

Most Christians change their view several times over, during their walk. I don't think our understanding of the scriptures is all that important. If a person turns from their sin, repents and trusts in Christ for the forgiveness of their sin they are saved.

We see several instances in the NT where people were saved on the spot, without even having their theology correct. Jesus said, "as many as believe in Me shall be saved. The thief on the cross didn't even have time to study theology, or be baptized but he was saved.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

I am not familiar with these two extremes inside molinism.

Wikipedia mentions it.

On Molinism God elects those who freely choose him! They were elected before the foundation of the world because God knew they would freely choose to respond to his gift of salvation!

I believe that according to 1 Peter 1:1-2 without the Molinism name or label.

So both views above are conflating how God elects under Molinism.
He elects the same way he determines by creating this world. After creation free creatures choose to follow or reject God freely. Now some Molinist have hypothesized that the people God puts in the Europe or America are the ones he knew would respond positively to the gospel but that view is pure conjecture and has no scriptural data in support.

Are you referring to Calvinistic like Molinism vs. Arminian like Molinism?
If so, I do not see the determinism as being the same in those views in Molinism umbrella.

As to Charozin, who knows? Some have theorized that God as a result of his maximal loving nature would have produced a world with the least suffering and the most number of people freely choosing a relationship with him.

I believe God at His core is good and moral and unchanging His moral character. So there would have been no alternate possibility where things were easier for mankind overall.

The whole area of how God administers his world is extremely complex, Incomprehensible by human minds, and not unfolded in scripture even when directly asked.

True. We cannot fathom all the quations and variables like God can. We can only make the best educated guess. For we look through a glass darkly.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Well, the apostle Paul disagrees with you. Here's what he wrote to the Christians at Corinth:

1 Corinthians 3:1
And I, brethren, could not speak unto you as unto spiritual, but as unto carnal, even as unto babes in Christ.

Though Paul calls the Corinthian Christians "carnal" in this verse, twice in this verse he confirms that he is talking to fellow believers. He refers to the carnal Corinthians as both "brethren" and those who are "in Christ."

1 Corinthians 3:3
3 ...for you are still fleshly...

Here Paul asserts again the fleshliness - or carnality - of the Corinthian believers, though only a few verses later Paul describes these same carnal Christians as "God's building" and "field." (vs. 9)

Paul isn't done with the Corinthian Christians but spends a significant portion of his first letter to them criticizing and rebuking them for their sinfulness. (See chapters 5, 6 and chapter 11). I don't see, then, how you can legitimately assert that Christians have no carnal nature. Paul clearly indicates the opposite.

What you don't understand is that salvation is awarded at the end of your life, not assured at the beginning of accepting Christ. That puts you on the path, but you must grow from there, and Christ had given them all the gifts to help them grow. But the Corinthians weren't growing, they were even backtracking and allowing sins going on that were even repulsive to the heathens. He gave them a scathing talking to.

But by the time of Paul's next letter they had repented. And look what he writes.

2 Corinthians 7:
8 For even if I made you sorry with my letter, I do not regret it; though I did regret it. For I perceive that the same epistle made you sorry, though only for a while. 9 Now I rejoice, not that you were made sorry, but that your sorrow led to repentance. For you were made sorry in a godly manner, that you might suffer loss from us in nothing. 10 For godly sorrow produces repentance leading to salvation, not to be regretted.

Don't you see that if they stayed on the path they were on they would not have stood up to sin and would have lost all the ground they had once had, and some of them would have been lost forever.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Peter never addressed Christians who don’t sin since there’s no such a person.

You do not give Jesus much credit do you? He accomplished what He came to do, but I don't think you've ever been taught what that was.

Why did Jesus die for us? What did it accomplish?

 

[CharismaticLady]

I’m not sure who this is in reference to, but just in case, I will assure you that it does not describe my view.

That was about anyone and everyone who believes that.

You may be using your phone so I understand if it is hard to write long posts, so frankly, I don't know what you believe, except that you are "Reformed," so probably hold Calvinist views. But the one liners you've shared I can shoot full of holes. They are not doctrinally sound. Whether or not you run in the right circles where people's lives confirm scripture, I don't know.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Universalism is a broad term with different meanings to different people so one must define it from a biblical perspective. Jesus did die for the sins of the whole world. He is the only way. No one comes to the Father except through Jesus Christ alone. Only the blood of Jesus makes for sufficient atonement. The lake of fire is a literal, physical place where those who do not believe in Jesus and obey are condemned. In this sense evangelical universalism is no different from the evangelical gospel message. The primary difference is evangelical universalism believes that those sinners who end up in the lake of fire, do eventually get saved and are not tormented forever nor are they annihilated. Thus there is still a need to evangelize and make disciples or else people still end up in the lake of fire, though not forever.

Well that doctrine is very unsound. No where does the Bible teach there is a chance to leave hell.

 

[Hammster]

You do not give Jesus much credit do you? He accomplished what He came to do, but I don't think you've ever been taught what that was.

Why did Jesus die for us? What did it accomplish?

I give Jesus all of the credit. He lived the perfect life in my place. I’m in Him. So His righteousness is imputed to me.

As to His death,


For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
— 1 Corinthians 15:3

This means


When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
— Colossians 2:13-14

So to sum up, He loved the life I could not live, and died the death that I deserved.

 

[Oldmantook]

Well that doctrine is very unsound. No where does the Bible teach there is a chance to leave hell.

That's a subject all by itself - which is what you (and I) were taught. But we have an obligation to search the scriptures for ourselves don't we? I did my due diligence. You can do yours if you wish.

 

[Hammster]

That was about anyone and everyone who believes that.

You may be using your phone so I understand if it is hard to write long posts, so frankly, I don't know what you believe, except that you are "Reformed," so probably hold Calvinist views. But the one liners you've shared I can shoot full of holes. They are not doctrinally sound. Whether or not you run in the right circles where people's lives confirm scripture, I don't know.

Feel free to try to shoot them full of holes. I just ask that you stop jumping all over the place when you respond, ie your response in post 149.

 

[DamianWarS]

The text does tell us. The entire message was given to the Apostles minus one, Judas. who He did not choose.
" I speak not of you all: I know whom I have chosen: but that the scripture may be fulfilled, He that eateth bread with me hath lifted up his heel against me."

that's still not how

 

[CharismaticLady]

According to Scripture, the key is found in obedience. Not in prayer answered according to your specifications.

But then, to the evangelist, the reason we are here on earth is to win souls. Oh well.

It is not just obedience, but abiding in Him and He in you. It is the difference between an acquaintanceship and a marriage. But the rest of the scripture is true. I don't know that you believe the scripture.

1 John 3:21-24
21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.

John 15:7
7 If you abide in Me, and My words abide in you, you will ask what you desire, and it shall be done for you.

Both show answered prayer as the sign that you are abiding in Him, and one shows that it is keeping His commandments that shows that we are abiding in Him.

And Jesus has made keeping his commandments very easy. He gave us His Spirit that naturally keeps all God's righteous requirements and gives us a non-carnal nature.

Some believe that sanctification is a lifelong process to overcome our desire to sin, but Jesus already took care of that at the beginning when He took away our sin. But there IS a process that continues, but it is glorification, becoming more and more like Christ towards perfection.

2 Peter 1:5-7
giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue, to virtue knowledge, 6 to knowledge self-control, to self-control perseverance, to perseverance godliness, 7 to godliness brotherly kindness, and to brotherly kindness love.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Feel free to try to shoot them full of holes. I just ask that you stop jumping all over the place when you respond, ie your response in post 149.

I have been, one at a time.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I give Jesus all of the credit. He lived the perfect life in my place. I’m in Him. So His righteousness is imputed to me.

As to His death,


For I delivered to you as of first importance what I also received, that Christ died for our sins according to the Scriptures,
— 1 Corinthians 15:3

This means


When you were dead in your transgressions and the uncircumcision of your flesh, He made you alive together with Him, having forgiven us all our transgressions, having canceled out the certificate of debt consisting of decrees against us, which was hostile to us; and He has taken it out of the way, having nailed it to the cross.
— Colossians 2:13-14

So to sum up, He loved the life I could not live, and died the death that I deserved.

So in other words Jesus didn't change a thing about you. He has put an invisibility cloak of Himself over you so the Father cannot see the sins you have no power not to commit.

 

[CharismaticLady]

That's a subject all by itself - which is what you (and I) were taught. But we have an obligation to search the scriptures for ourselves don't we? I did my due diligence. You can do yours if you wish.

I've looked at the subject of in hell forever, as opposed to instant annihilation.

There are more scriptures to instant annihilation, but then you find that one stand alone scripture that implies forever. When that happens, it goes on the shelf of "what will be will be."

 

[Maria Billingsley]

that's still not how

How He chose the Apostles? He is God.