You did not chose Me, I chose you.

CharismaticLady

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That was from John 15:16, but...


I hope you read all of chapter John 15.

2. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away

14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.

Jesus died for the whole world, but not all of the world will remain and not be lopped off because they did not keep the commands of Jesus.

Partial truths taking one verse out of the context of the whole like many have done produces heresies. Two heresies in the Church are Universalism and OSAS.
 

Uber Genius

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So you have presented one passage, filled with figurative language, and told us how to interpret that passage with out any exegesis.

Why should we think this passage, "Remain in me," or "Keep my commands," has to do with maintaining a sin-free life?

In systematic theology ALL the passages that relate to a topic are examined exegetically then brought together to determine abductive lay which view best explains the data of the scripture.

Romans 5:1 "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Romans 3:28 "Therefore, we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the Law."

Romans 3:30 "Since indeed God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."

Gal 2:16 "Nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus...by the works of the Law shall no flesh justified."

Dikaioma, dikaioo, dikaiosis, are the greek words for justified. A study of the passages in the New Conant would be most important.

The passage in John is unclear with respect to new covenant salvation or maintenance, stands in stark contrast to Paul and Peter's teaching, and is NOT even in the New Covenant!
 
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1 Peter 1:1-2 says God the Father elects according to His foreknowledge. Meaning, if somebody accepts Jesus, God the Father was aware of this fact and thereby He chose them before the saint was able to do so in real time. In other words, God is one step ahead of us. Granted, God wants all to be saved, but He knows not everyone will be saved. Only God knows ultimately who will repent in the end before they die.

John 15:16 does not mean God chooses some to be saved, and He chooses others to not be saved (against their own free will). Somebody has to force that kind of meaning into the text based on outside teachings (eisegesis).
 
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BBAS 64

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That was from John 15:16, but...


I hope you read all of chapter John 15.

2. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away

14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.

Jesus died for the whole world, but not all of the world will remain and not be lopped off because they did not keep the commands of Jesus.

Partial truths taking one verse out of the context of the whole like many have done produces heresies. Two heresies in the Church are Universalism and OSAS.


Good Day,


Love John 15 keeps me rooted in the Vine for with out Him I can do nothing....

Jesus Is the True Vine (John 15:1-8)

These things I have spoken to you, that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be full.

Joy unspeakable... life that will never end a Savior that saves to the uttermost.

In Him,

Bill
 
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Uber Genius

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1 Peter 1:1-2 says God the Father elects according to His foreknowledge. Meaning, if somebody accepts Jesus, God the Father was aware of this fact and thereby He chose them before the saint was able to do so in real time. In other words, God is one step ahead of us. Granted, God wants all to be saved, but He knows not everyone will be saved. Only God knows ultimately who will repent in the end before they die.

John 15:16 does not mean God chooses some to be saved, and He chooses others to not be saved (against their own free will). Somebody has to force that kind of meaning into the text based on outside teachings (eisegesis).
Agree with your point. But it seems that the the idea of election through foreknowledge is itself a controversial subject with four separate inferences: Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism (which actually denies that God has anything like foreknowledge).

I think we can get to the intent of the original authors, but the process is tedious and complicated. And forums don't lend themselves to that process.
 
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Hammster

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That was from John 15:16, but...


I hope you read all of chapter John 15.

2. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away

14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.

Jesus died for the whole world, but not all of the world will remain and not be lopped off because they did not keep the commands of Jesus.

Partial truths taking one verse out of the context of the whole like many have done produces heresies. Two heresies in the Church are Universalism and OSAS.
Who is responsible for us bearing fruit? It looks to me to be the Vinedresser.
 
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Agree with your point. But it seems that the the idea of election through foreknowledge is itself a controversial subject with four separate inferences: Calvinism, Arminianism, Molinism, Open Theism (which actually denies that God has anything like foreknowledge).

I think we can get to the intent of the original authors, but the process is tedious and complicated. And forums don't lend themselves to that process.

I think Arminianism explains things just fine. It is a harmonization of God's will or sovereignty vs. Man's will or sovereignty. So what alternative way do you suggest?

Oh, and in Calvinism, God may appear to "elect" based on foreknowledge (i.e. the end goal of how He wants things to be), but this is not really a based on any knowledge of what a person will do in regards to accepting Christ. Calvinists think that a person is unable to come to God on their own ability and thus God is the One who chooses some to be saved and others to not be saved based upon no conditions within the individual. This is wrong (In my opinion) because it makes it appear like God is decreeing some to be damned (When He had the power to flip the switch and save them at any time). He simply does not want to save some. He simply wants some to suffer for all eternity in hell fire for no real good reason but for the fact that He sovereignly decrees it. At least, this is my understanding of how I view Calvinism. No offense if anyone here is a Calvinist.
 
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Hammster

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At least, this is my understanding of how I view Calvinism. No offense if anyone here is a Calvinist.
Which is strange because I know you’ve been corrected on this over the years. Not sure why you still think that.
 
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tdidymas

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That was from John 15:16, but...


I hope you read all of chapter John 15.

2. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away

14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.

Jesus died for the whole world, but not all of the world will remain and not be lopped off because they did not keep the commands of Jesus.

Partial truths taking one verse out of the context of the whole like many have done produces heresies. Two heresies in the Church are Universalism and OSAS.
Just because OSAS has been used to support antinomianism doesn't negate the truth of it. What if I said that Arminianism leads to Open Theism, and that Open Theists claim they are honest Arminians? I think if you knew what Open Theism taught, you would deny it.

But Peter wrote that we are "kept by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." Do you believe that faith is the gift of God? Do you believe in God's power to keep us? Do you believe that we have died to sin?

It seems to me that your statement "Partial truths taking one verse out of the context of the whole like many have done produces heresies" also applies to you.
TD:)
 
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Uber Genius

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I think Arminianism explains things just fine. It is a harmonization of God's will or sovereignty vs. Man's will or sovereignty. So what alternative way do you suggest?

Oh, and in Calvinism, God may appear to "elect" based on foreknowledge (i.e. the end goal of how He wants things to be), but this is not really a based on any knowledge of what a person will do in regards to accepting Christ. Calvinists think that a person is unable to come to God on their own ability and thus God is the One who chooses some to be saved and others to not be saved based upon no conditions within the individual. This is wrong (In my opinion) because it makes it appear like God is decreeing some to be damned (When He had the power to flip the switch and save them at any time). He simply does not want to save some. He simply wants some to suffer for all eternity in hell fire for no real good reason but for the fact that He sovereignly decrees it. At least, this is my understanding of how I view Calvinism. No offense if anyone here is a Calvinist.
I agree with your assessment so far.

I get that Arminianism explains how God knows everything that will happen but it doesn't explain God's hypothetical knowledge. Namely in 1 Sam. 23:10-13, we find God telling David what WOULD HAPPEN IF David and his men remained in Keilah. As a result they leave Keilah and Saul never comes to Keilah. So God seems to have knowledge of future "counter factuals," (How humans would freely choose in future events that are never acualized).

I think we need something to explain God's future knowledge of what would be the case if humans acted in hypothetical ways.
 
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26 biblical reasons man cannot choose or come to God in his own free will( whatever that unbiblical concept means)

1-Man by nature is deceitful (Jer. 17:9),
2-Man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
3-Man loves darkness (John 3:19),
4-Man does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12),
5-Man is ungodly (Rom. 5:6),
6-Man is dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1),
7-Man by nature is a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3),
8-Man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14),
9-Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20)
10-Man is sinful at birth, sinful from the time of conception (Psalm 51:5)
11-Man is like a filthy rag his garments stained by sin and is unrighteous ( Is 64:6)
12-Man is hostile towards God and cannot submit to Him or His law ( Rom 8:7)
13-Man cannot do good and is completely incapable of such an act ( Rom 3:12)
14-Man is not born with faith so everything is done in sin ( Rom 14:23)
15-Man has not one single thing that is good in him ( Rom 7:18)
16-Man is born condemned ( John 3:18)

10 reasons semi pelagians are wrong !

1)man is deceitful (Jer. 17:9)
2)man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
3)man loves darkness (John 3:19),
4)man does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12),
5)man is ungodly (Rom. 5:6),
6)man is dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1),
7)man by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3),
8)man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14),
9)man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20)
10)man is sinful in the womb and conceived in sin(Psalm 51:5)

Salvation is of, by, through the Lord period end of story.

hope this helps !!!
 
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DamianWarS

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That was from John 15:16, but...


I hope you read all of chapter John 15.

2. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away

14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.

Jesus died for the whole world, but not all of the world will remain and not be lopped off because they did not keep the commands of Jesus.

Partial truths taking one verse out of the context of the whole like many have done produces heresies. Two heresies in the Church are Universalism and OSAS.

16 is the verse in question saying "You did not choose me, but I chose you and appointed you so that you might go and bear fruit—fruit that will last..." keeping with theme in the text it opens showing us that branches are cut down that don't bear fruit and those that do bear fruit are pruned. Implicit in this is choosing a branch over another based on the amount of fruit it bears.

However, if we want to stick strictly with the metaphors presented verse 1 establishes who has what role saying "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener." So the vine is Christ, Christ doesn't identify himself with the role of the gardener that cuts down branches or prunes he is the vine. So who are we? Our role is identified in v5 saying "I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing."

So the Father is the gardener, Christ is the vine and we are the branches. When Christ speaks of choosing us in context, based on the themes presented in the text, his choice is based on the roles of the vine to the branches (not gardener to branch). And we see that if we want fruit we need to remain in Christ and he in us.

So here is a summary:
Our role as the branches are to remain in the vine.
The vine's role is to remain in the branches so that if they remain also in the vine they will bear fruit.
the gardener's role is to cut down the branches that are not bearing fruit and to prune those that are.

Christ's "choosing" is likened to Christ remaining in the branches. If he does not remain in the branches the branches cannot produce any fruit (apart from me you can do nothing) and will be cut down by the gardener. So how does Christ choose? There is a lot of parallels going on in the text and Christ slowly unravels it leaving us with more and more information as he goes on. v9 is part of the unravelling saying "As the Father has loved me, so have I loved you. Now remain in my love" this "remain in my love" part is paralleled with "remain in me and I in you" and gives us further clues as to how we can remain in him. so what does it mean to remain in his love? v10 tells us "If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father’s commands and remain in his love" so to remain in Christ and he in us we must keep Christ's commandments.

This seems simple enough except it is still carefully worded saying "If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love..." It's not "when you keep..." it's "if you keep..." What this reveals is that Christ loves us first and in order to remain in that love we need to keep his commandments. We don't draw Christ to us through our obedience (works based) because Christ already loves us and he already has chosen us, But in order to remain in him, we must keep his commandments.

So back to the question... how does Christ choose us? The text may not tell us. The text tells us that branches that do not remain in Christ will not bear fruit and will be cut down by the gardener. The text tells us that Christ's choosing is first and our obedience is the condition to remain in his love but it is not based on Christ selecting us. What can be argued is that Christ implicitly chooses us using language that can be widely applied and indicate to the hearer that they are the ones chosen. I would agree with this too as this is the gospel, the good news, and written in a way to be widely received and personal upon hearing it, if not, this passage is written misleading the person receiving the gospel that they are chosen too.
 
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CharismaticLady

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So you have presented one passage, filled with figurative language, and told us how to interpret that passage with out any exegesis.

Why should we think this passage, "Remain in me," or "Keep my commands," has to do with maintaining a sin-free life?

In systematic theology ALL the passages that relate to a topic are examined exegetically then brought together to determine abductive lay which view best explains the data of the scripture.

Romans 5:1 "Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ."

Romans 3:28 "Therefore, we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the Law."

Romans 3:30 "Since indeed God, who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith is one."

Gal 2:16 "Nevertheless knowing that a man is not justified by works of the Law but through faith in Christ Jesus...by the works of the Law shall no flesh justified."

Dikaioma, dikaioo, dikaiosis, are the greek words for justified. A study of the passages in the New Conant would be most important.

The passage in John is unclear with respect to new covenant salvation or maintenance, stands in stark contrast to Paul and Peter's teaching, and is NOT even in the New Covenant!

Paul's teaching on the Jewish Law went from Romans 1 through Romans 8. You chose scriptures in the middle out of context of the whole and naturally came up with one of the heresies. Jesus freed us FROM sin, not TO sin. The conclusion? Jesus gave us His Spirit to fulfill the righteous requirements of the law of God and have written them on our heart. It is called being born again. We are freed from the laws written on stone, and now in Jesus, walk after the Spirit, which are actually deeper laws than the surface laws of the Ten Commandments. So if you think you are free from LAW, think again. Only in how you accomplish it keeping them - through Jesus' Spirit inside of you.

Romans 6:
What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound? 2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

7 For he who has died has been freed from sin.

15 What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? Certainly not! 16 Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one’s slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?

Romans 8:
. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death. 3 For what the law could not do in that it was weak through the flesh, God did by sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, on account of sin: He condemned sin in the flesh, 4 that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.
 
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CharismaticLady

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Who is responsible for us bearing fruit? It looks to me to be the Vinedresser.

Yes, we must be born again which is done by the Spirit that Christ gives those who have repented of their sin nature. Jesus gives us a new nature that Peter in 2 Pt. 1 calls the divine nature. You cannot walk after the flesh bearing bad fruit and claim you are IN Jesus. John says in 1 Jn 3 of those that sin, they never knew Jesus.
 
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CharismaticLady

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Just because OSAS has been used to support antinomianism doesn't negate the truth of it. What if I said that Arminianism leads to Open Theism, and that Open Theists claim they are honest Arminians? I think if you knew what Open Theism taught, you would deny it.

But Peter wrote that we are "kept by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time." Do you believe that faith is the gift of God? Do you believe in God's power to keep us? Do you believe that we have died to sin?

It seems to me that your statement "Partial truths taking one verse out of the context of the whole like many have done produces heresies" also applies to you.
TD:)

That depends on how far you take being kept. Does it mean that "when you sin God only 'sees' righteousness because Jesus blood covers us while we sin" that is heresy. But if you mean that Jesus places His Spirit in us so we fulfill the righteous requirements of the law and hate even the thought of sin, then I agree. In fact, our true assurance is written in 1 John 3:18-24

18 My little children, let us not love in word or in tongue, but in deed and in truth. 19 And by this we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before Him. ... 21 Beloved, if our heart does not condemn us, we have confidence toward God. 22 And whatever we ask we receive from Him, because we keep His commandments and do those things that are pleasing in His sight. 23 And this is His commandment: that we should believe on the name of His Son Jesus Christ and love one another, as He gave us commandment. 24 Now he who keeps His commandments abides in Him, and He in him. And by this we know that He abides in us, by the Spirit whom He has given us.
 
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I agree with your assessment so far.

I get that Arminianism explains how God knows everything that will happen but it doesn't explain God's hypothetical knowledge. Namely in 1 Sam. 23:10-13, we find God telling David what WOULD HAPPEN IF David and his men remained in Keilah. As a result they leave Keilah and Saul never comes to Keilah. So God seems to have knowledge of future "counter factuals," (How humans would freely choose in future events that are never acualized).

I think we need something to explain God's future knowledge of what would be the case if humans acted in hypothetical ways.

There is Unconditional Molinism (Calvinism Lite) and Conditional Molinism (Arminianism).

Unconditional Molinism basically says that God unconditionally elects what world (out an infinite possibility of worlds); He sovereignly chooses that world out of an infinite number of worlds for those individuals to be saved. The problem that the Molinist does not understand is that those who were saved at Sodom and Gomorrah under a different scenario is that the Lord knew that these individuals would not endure to the end to salvation. A person can be saved for a time. So then why does God allow for believers to fall away in other instances? Because God needs to warn the believer to endure to the end. The Molinist is saying that there are others in another possible universe or world that could have endured to the end to salvation and been eternally saved, but God simply sovereignly decrees that they were not saved and He chooses the world he wants.

Unconditional Molinism is a lite version of Calvinism. It makes for an allowance for free will of man in choosing God, but in certain instances, some will not be saved because God may choose a world where a person is not permanently saved for all time (When they could have been). Molinists adhere to Unconditional Election because God sovereignly decrees which world is best for people to be saved but some will not make it (when they could have made it in another world). Unconditional Election means God is not choosing anyone based on any conditions within the individual. Yet, Molinists recognize that a believer has to respond to God in order to have salvation out of the illumination of God under Prevenient Grace.

Arminianism is not inconsistent with middle knowledge or possibilities. 1 Peter 1:1-2 says God the Father elects according to His foreknowledge. God is good. God is love. So God would not allow for a world where one believer would perish (if he could have been saved for all time in another world).
 
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CharismaticLady

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26 biblical reasons man cannot chose or come to God in his own free will( whatever that unbiblical concept means)

1-Man by nature is deceitful (Jer. 17:9),
2-Man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
3-Man loves darkness (John 3:19),
4-Man does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12),
5-Man is ungodly (Rom. 5:6),
6-Man is dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1),
7-Man by nature is a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3),
8-Man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14),
9-Man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20)
10-Man is sinful at birth, sinful from the time of conception (Psalm 51:5)
11-Man is like a filthy rag his garments stained by sin and is unrighteous ( Is 64:6)
12-Man is hostile towards God and cannot submit to Him or His law ( Rom 8:7)
13-Man cannot do good and is completely incapable of such an act ( Rom 3:12)
14-Man is not born with faith so everything is done in sin ( Rom 14:23)
15-Man has not one single thing that is good in him ( Rom 7:18)
16-Man is born condemned ( John 3:18)

10 reasons semi pelagians are wrong !

1)man is deceitful (Jer. 17:9)
2)man is full of evil (Mark 7:21-23)
3)man loves darkness (John 3:19),
4)man does not seek for God (Rom. 3:10-12),
5)man is ungodly (Rom. 5:6),
6)man is dead in his sins (Eph. 2:1),
7)man by nature a child of wrath (Eph. 2:3),
8)man cannot understand spiritual things (1 Cor. 2:14),
9)man is a slave of sin (Rom. 6:16-20)
10)man is sinful in the womb and conceived in sin(Psalm 51:5)

Salvation is of, by, through the Lord period end of story.

hope this helps !!!

But man is still capable of hearing.

Romans 10:17
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Sorry J, we have free will; it is just that not all will listen to what they HEAR. It is still up to us and the sovereignty God gave man when He made us in His likeness.
 
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Hammster

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But man is still capable of hearing.

Romans 10:17
17 So then faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.

Sorry J, we have free will; it is just that not all will listen to what they HEAR. It is still up to us and the sovereignty God gave man when He made us in His likeness.
If you are correct, then everyone who hears the gospel has faith.
 
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CharismaticLady

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If you are correct, then everyone who hears the gospel has faith.

God gives all a measure of faith. It is up to us what we do with it. If we choose darkness over light, there we will remain.

Revelation 22:11 our state when we die.
 
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