You did not chose Me, I chose you.

[Uber Genius]

@Uber Genius

I suppose my question to you is: How does libertarian free will (or limited free will) differ from the kind of free will in Molinism? Prevenient grace (or enabling grace) is a Christian theological concept rooted in Arminian theology. So regardless of what Arminius thought, his followers also taught "Prevenient Grace" (Which is an enabling or illumination from God at the right time or times in a person's life to hear the gospel message so as to either accept it or reject it of their own free will).

Source:
Prevenient grace - Wikipedia

Just as Calvinism, Arminianism and Molinism agree that God is completely sovereign over his creation, Molinism and Prevenient grace are not in conflict. God is a free agent whom may choose to act in the affairs of this world and does so regularly throughout scripture and in the lives of just about every Christian I know. And a large number of non-Chritians as well.

So distinctions would lay elsewhere.

 

[aiki]

Calvinism, Molinism and Armenianism are not the only games in town:

www.soteriology101.com

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

Calvinism, Molinism and Armenianism are not the only games in town:

www.soteriology101.com

Yes there is also pelagianism , semi- pelagianism, Gnosticism , Unitarianism, legalism, Judaism, and many other ism’s as well.

hope this helps !!!

 

[aiki]

Yes there is also pelagianism , semi- pelagianism, Gnosticism , Unitarianism, legalism, Judaism, and many other ism’s as well.

hope this helps !!!

Yup. I am aware. I wanted to draw particular attention to Provisionalism, however.

 

[CharismaticLady]

No. The statement was in context of our discussion. I didn’t realize that needed spelling out.

Me neither. The fact is, Peter is addressing born again Christians who don't sin. Unlike you, Peter is not expecting them to either. So now what does a born again Christian do to keep growing in the Spirit toward glorification? That is what Peter is addressing.

Because of your defeatist beliefs, I'm sure this does need to be spelled out to you.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

That was from John 15:16, but...


I hope you read all of chapter John 15.

2. Every branch in Me that does not bear fruit He takes away

14 You are My friends if you do whatever I command you.

Jesus died for the whole world, but not all of the world will remain and not be lopped off because they did not keep the commands of Jesus.

Partial truths taking one verse out of the context of the whole like many have done produces heresies. Two heresies in the Church are Universalism and OSAS.

This error is so old that the Apostle Paul dealt with it: "Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" (Galatians 3:3)

 

[CharismaticLady]

Apparently you have OSAS confused with antinomianism or universalism, which is what your OP implies. Your argument "You CAN'T lose your salvation no matter what you do" is a straw man, as Biblical truth makes it obvious:

1. Salvation from sin means we are dead to sin, therefore how can we live therein? (Rom. 6:7). Your statement presumes the saved person is not free from sin, and so he is "free" to live in it after being saved from it. This logic is irrational, in view of the teachings of the NT.

2. Since a saved person has the Holy Spirit, such person is being led by the Spirit (Rom. 8:14). Your statement presumes that such a person chooses to reject the Spirit's leading, and become unsaved again, not being led by the Spirit. Such an idea is preposterous, since that kind of choice would not be led by the Spirit, so the implication is that the promise to be led by the Spirit is a "yes and no" to you, when Paul states clearly that the promises of God are "yes and amen." (2 Cor. 1:20). Since to you it's a "maybe," you are in error.

3. Your statement implies that the faith of the person saved is precarious - maybe believing, maybe not. This also is ludicrous, since Paul wrote "he who believes in him shall not be disappointed." Your "maybe" faith anticipates disappointment.

I'll stop here, as I'm wondering if this is too much for you, since you apparently have an agenda to claim OSAS is heresy, no matter how Biblical my explanations. If you don't want to believe that you are kept by the power of God, that's your prerogative.

My reading of the NT tells me that God is in control of my salvation, and thus in control of me, which is contrary to the "free will" salvation idea which implies that people are in control of their own salvation. It is the nature of that teaching. If you are in control of your salvation, your faith has to be in yourself, that is, in your "free will" ability to make right choices. My faith is in God who is in control, since the Bible tells me that God is able to keep me from falling.
TD

I know what you are trying to say and I commend you. We are on the same page. I just wish those who believe grace is a license to sin knew the truth as well as you do. Because what they bring to the table is heresy. And because a large percentage of people believe the latter, it is too big a risk to endorse OSAS.

However, I do not endorse Arminianism either. The idea you must repent everyday because you have no assurance at all, is also heresy.

I prefer the Biblical assurance of 1 John 3:18-24. Walking in the Spirit we go to bed with a clear conscience daily, and do that the next day too until the end. I KNOW this is the only Biblical choice and is neither Calvinisim nor Arminianism. It is a balance, and the truth. And, of course, the proof is in the pudding. My prayers have all been answered for 42 years. Every Christian should walk the straight and narrow in the Spirit. And if they have trouble with sin, like I did for the first 30 years of my life, then repent in order to receive the Holy Spirit and a nature that keeps us righteous.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

This error is so old that the Apostle Paul dealt with it: "Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" (Galatians 3:3)

A born again believer has a deep desire to please God by obeying Him. The result is the fruit of the spirit manifested in their life. We are Gods workmanship created in Christ Jesus to do good works.

hope this helps !!!

 

[CharismaticLady]

This error is so old that the Apostle Paul dealt with it: "Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?" (Galatians 3:3)

Oh Jimmy, you don't know what you are talking about - again. If you knew what it is like to be born again with a different nature, you would know that it is Christ in you keeping the righteous requirements of the law through you. I don't live in my old carnal flesh from before I was born again. And I have no desire to. Maybe this will help.

Here is my analogy of what it is like when our carnal nature is baptized in the Holy Spirit and born again: "It is like being born with the nature of a lion, loving to kill, and having only a taste for blood and fresh meat. But the law says to not kill and only eat grass. Then that lion becomes born again into a divine new creature, a lamb. The lamb never desires to kill and loves to only eat fresh green grass. Therefore that law to not kill and eat only grass is very easy for the lamb, but impossible for the lion." You see, the lamb couldn't kill and eat meat and blood even once, 1 John 3:9. It has no desire to. It is not in their nature. We do what comes naturally: either that of a lion, or that of a lamb. You can’t be both.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I see how this passage applies to OSAS but how does it apply to Universalism?

Isn't Universalism that Jesus died for the whole world, so it doesn't matter what you do, the whole world is saved?

 

[CharismaticLady]

Which is implied in my use of the word "us."



These are all about the sinner being unable to contribute anything to the perfect, finished atoning work of Christ. God accepts us - and continues to accept us - only because the believer is in Christ, redeemed, clothed in his perfect righteousness and fully sanctified by his cleansing blood shed at Calvary (1 Corinthians 1:30). There is no other basis upon which God will accept any of us.

It is specious reasoning of the highest order to pretend that works-salvation is not what you are espousing. If a believer only remains saved so long as s/he performs good works, s/he is essentially saved by those good works.

The difference is our "good works" are done by Christ in us and through us, because we obey the Spirit's leading. You must keep thinking that a Christian still has a carnal nature. No, we don't. We are partaking of the divine nature that doesn't have any desire to sin.

Like mistreating animals. It is not my good works to not abuse an animal. It is just not in my nature in the first place.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

A born again believer has a deep desire to please God by obeying Him. The result is the fruit of the spirit manifested in their life. We are Gods workmanship created in Christ Jesus to do good works.

hope this helps !!!

It doesn't help.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

It doesn't help.

Why not ?

Do you desire to please your Lord and Savior ? Yes or no

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Oh Jimmy, you don't know what you are talking about - again. If you knew what it is like to be born again with a different nature, you would know that it is Christ in you keeping the righteous requirements of the law through you. I don't live in my old carnal flesh from before I was born again. And I have no desire to. Maybe this will help.

Here is my analogy of what it is like when our carnal nature is baptized in the Holy Spirit and born again: "It is like being born with the nature of a lion, loving to kill, and having only a taste for blood and fresh meat. But the law says to not kill and only eat grass. Then that lion becomes born again into a divine new creature, a lamb. The lamb never desires to kill and loves to only eat fresh green grass. Therefore that law to not kill and eat only grass is very easy for the lamb, but impossible for the lion." You see, the lamb couldn't kill and eat meat and blood even once, 1 John 3:9. It has no desire to. It is not in their nature. We do what comes naturally: either that of a lion, or that of a lamb. You can’t be both.

I like proof. May I come to live in your house and record everything you say and do for one month? I've never met a sinless person before.

*BTW, I would never report it, but you just stated that I was not a Christian which is against forum rules.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Why not ?

Do you desire to please your Lord and Savior ? Yes or no

It's a straw man.

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

It doesn't help.

What do these passages mean to you ?

Try to learn what pleases the Lord. (Ephesians 5:10)

No one can please God without faith, for whoever comes to God must have faith that God exists and rewards those who seek him. (Hebrews 11:6)

So then, my friends, because of God’s great mercy to us I appeal to you: Offer yourselves as a living sacrifice to God, dedicated to his service and pleasing to him. This is the true worship that you should offer. (Romans 12:1)

More than anything else, however, we want to please him, whether in our home here or there. (2 Corinthians 5:9)

 

[Jesus is YHWH]

It's a straw man.

Define straw man since what I said has nothing whatsoever to do with one.

And post your source for its definition .

hope this helps !!!

 

[CharismaticLady]

I like proof. May I come to live in your house and record everything you say and do for one month? I've never met a sinless person before.

*BTW, I would never report it, but you just stated that I was not a Christian which is against forum rules.

Can you tell me why you believe Christ working through you is works? He is the one doing the work. What do you have against that?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Can you tell me why you believe Christ working through you is works? He is the one doing the work. What do you have against that?

Your emPHASis on the wrong sylLABle

 

[CharismaticLady]

Your emPHASis on the wrong sylLABle

It is not MY emphasis, but Paul's.