You Can't be a Christian and Vote for. . .

[Extraneous]

Does your church take any votes for its leaders or policies among members, deacons, or elders?

America is not the Church, but instead she is a worldly and ungodly nation, just like they all are. America is not the Kingdom of Christ either.

We are called by God to come out of the world, be separate (holy). We cant serve the world and God at the same time. They are like spirit and flesh, they appose each other.

 

[Sketcher]

America is not the Church, but instead she is a worldly and ungodly nation, just like they all are. America is not the Kingdom of Christ either.

So? Either way, you're voting for a flawed and not-fully-sanctified person. If the person you vote for within your church walls screws up, does that mean you voted for his or her sin? If not, why would voting for a politician be voting for that politician's sin?

 

[Extraneous]

So? Either way, you're voting for a flawed and not-fully-sanctified person. If the person you vote for within your church walls screws up, does that mean you voted for his or her sin? If not, why would voting for a politician be voting for that politician's sin?

Did you read any of the scripture i posted? Paul teaches us that we judge those inside the Church but not outside it. He said that he has nothing to do with judging those outside the Church, and that God judges them. Furthermore, i don't believe in following any man, not even in the Church. That's how we go wrong. We follow the apostles in scripture, those are the men the Lord sent to teach us. Show me a Church that teaches that and i'll call them my Church. Let God be true and every man a liar.

 

[Extraneous]

Actually, i didn't post, in this thread, all the scripture i am referring to. But this post says it all however.

http://www.christianforums.com/thre...ian-and-vote-for.7936397/page-3#post-69415589

 

[Extraneous]

We are supposed to be one in Christ. That doesn't mean anything goes, but it means that Christ is all things to us. Hes our helper, king, teacher, salvation and his kingdom is our nation. We are not "one" in politics but we are instead divided. That alone is reason to flee from politics. Politics will not bear fruit in us because we cannot abide in Christ and politics at the same time.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

So? Either way, you're voting for a flawed and not-fully-sanctified person. If the person you vote for within your church walls screws up, does that mean you voted for his or her sin? If not, why would voting for a politician be voting for that politician's sin?

Exactly. To imagine that we are keeping ourselves free from the filthy world by having nothing to do the the governance of it, is naive at best and hypocritical at worst. Sin is present in my own heart. I don't escape it by sitting in a church with stained glass windows. Why is the world the mess it is? Who is to blame? ME. It's not *those* filthy godless people over there. It's me. It's not the Left or the Right. Let all mention of sin be self-referential.

God directly governed Israel as a state, but He is not directly the king of the US or anywhere else. We have structures of government that, in the US, we are fortunate to take part in, and we must.

 

[Caretaker]

They are not counter examples. Christ didn't come to rule on earth, but in His kingdom instead. To vote for politicians is to vote for Cesar. Politics assumes that it can rule the world, as if God needed our vote to do what he is going to do anyway. All politics will do is cause us to become unfruitful. We will not be living in peace with all men but contention and strife instead. We will vote for men who will kill our enemies. We will be lead into covetousness with Health Care and economic concerns. We will not be seeking Christs kingdom, not be loving others, not living in peace with them, and we will lead others down the same worldly path. Its not holiness.

Look at the works of flesh, and what it means to seek Gods kingdom as well, and you will see that politics are a great deception, which blind leaders will lead the blind into.

Again, I am not in violent disagreement with your perspective. However, I think there is an argument to be made for lighting our candles in all dark corners, including politics. "In the world but not of the world." How can one witness to Christ where Christ is most needed if one avoids the areas where Christ is most needed?

 

[Caretaker]

Exactly. To imagine that we are keeping ourselves free from the filthy world by having nothing to do the the governance of it, is naive at best and hypocritical at worst. Sin is present in my own heart. I don't escape it by sitting in a church with stained glass windows. Why is the world the mess it is? Who is to blame? ME. It's not *those* filthy godless people over there. It's me. It's not the Left or the Right. Let all mention of sin be self-referential.

God directly governed Israel as a state, but He is not directly the king of the US or anywhere else. We have structures of government that, in the US, we are fortunate to take part in, and we must.

I tend to agree with that, but with a healthy respect for those who abstain.

 

[Caretaker]

America is not the Church, but instead she is a worldly and ungodly nation, just like they all are. America is not the Kingdom of Christ either.

We are called by God to come out of the world, be separate (holy). We cant serve the world and God at the same time. They are like spirit and flesh, they appose each other.

We serve God and we serve people. People are in this world. Jesus went where he was needed - among the rejected, the tax collectors, the unclean, the prostitutes. People are desperately in need of good government and good, Godly people in government. If all God's people abstain from government we are only guaranteed a government with no influence from God's people.

 

[Extraneous]

We serve God and we serve people. People are in this world. Jesus went where he was needed - among the rejected, the tax collectors, the unclean, the prostitutes. People are desperately in need of good government and good, Godly people in government. If all God's people abstain from government we are only guaranteed a government with no influence from God's people.

.

 

[RDKirk]

OK, so you're arguing that Christians should not participate in politics at all, i.e., not vote, not campaign, not run for office, not accept appointment? If so, I can respect that, while noting the OT counter examples of Joseph, Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednigo.

Absolutely none of those men voted, campaigned, or ran for office (and, yes, even in monarchies there are political machinations used to put certain people into office). Nor did they have any choice in whether they accepted their appointments, except to be executed for refusing a royal command.

The main thing to note is that none of them linked themselves to any of those political machinations, so that however power changed hands, they were always neutral.

 

[RDKirk]

The material world was made by God, and He instructed Adam (therefore mankind) to subdue it. It's not optional. Christians especially have a responsibility to actively rule and subdue, and that happens through government and through gospel.

We do not, and never will, have some ethereal existence. We live and act within a material realm, again, God's plan.

Man's worldly government was not God's plan, nor is it the method God gave to Adam for stewardship of the planet. If that had been the case, God would never have had a problem with Nimrod, nor would God have had a problem with Israel having a king.

 

[RDKirk]

We serve God and we serve people. People are in this world. Jesus went where he was needed - among the rejected, the tax collectors, the unclean, the prostitutes. People are desperately in need of good government and good, Godly people in government. If all God's people abstain from government we are only guaranteed a government with no influence from God's people.

And yet in China where Christians have no role in government, they are making disciples at the rate of 1,000 a week. In North Korea--where the government has been actively attempting to exterminate the church with a ferocity not seen since Domitian--Christians have increased their number 10-fold over the last 20 years.

Or look back at the rule of Domitian, who also tried to exterminate Christianity. Under Roman oppression, the Church grew until its influence in the pagan Roman nation was impossible to ignore. But Domitian (and earlier emperors) had failed so clearly that his successor --like Kim Jong Un in North Korea today, for the same reason--attempted to co-opt the Church after failing to exterminate it.

 

[RDKirk]

We are supposed to be one in Christ. That doesn't mean anything goes, but it means that Christ is all things to us. Hes our helper, king, teacher, salvation and his kingdom is our nation. We are not "one" in politics but we are instead divided. That alone is reason to flee from politics. Politics will not bear fruit in us because we cannot abide in Christ and politics at the same time.

Yes. Here is the thing: Does politics benefit our connection with Christian Palestinians in Israel? With Christians in China? With Christians in Cuba? With Christians in North Korea? With Christians in Nigeria?

Who are our true fellow countrymen? Who do we mean when we as Christians say "our nation" or "our culture?" If "our nation" does not include the Christian in Japan and the Christian in Nigeria, that's the wrong nation. If "our culture" is not defined by the Sermon on the Mount, that's the wrong culture.

 

[Extraneous]

Yes. Here is the thing: Does politics benefit our connection with Christian Palestinians in Israel? With Christians in China? With Christians in Cuba? With Christians in North Korea? With Christians in Nigeria?

Who are our true fellow countrymen? Who do we mean when we as Christians say "our nation" or "our culture?" If "our nation" does not include the Christian in Japan and the Christian in Nigeria, that's the wrong nation. If "our culture" is not defined by the Sermon on the Mount, that's the wrong culture.

I dont know anymore. Why is it ok to bomb our enemies? What president can we vote for that wont kill our enemies? I just dont understand how i can vote for any politician. Maybe i should just kill myself instead, and not worry about it.

 

[RDKirk]

I dont know anymore. Why is it ok to bomb our enemies? What president can we vote for that wont kill our enemies? I just dont understand how i can vote for any politician. Maybe i should just kill myself instead, and not worry about it.

What did I just say about Christians in North Korea?

North Korea has been horrendously hostile to Christianity for more than half a century (and was only awfully hostile to Christians before that). They imprison entire families for life in prison camps and commit torture atrocities on women and children that can't be related in a forum like this. But in the mid 90s, I provided to my boss an intelligence report that documented the torture practices of North Korean prison guards on Christian women (the guards actually got military awards for inventiveness in torture methods). My boss was a Marine colonel who had an entire row of Purple Hearts from Vietnam. His head looked like Frankenstein with so many scars running through his face and scalp.

He read three pages into that report, turned white as a sheet, pushed it away and said, "I can't read any more of that #@#&*."

A few years ago, a North Korean government official visited China. A Chinese Christian pastor spoke the gospel to him, and that North Korean government official became a believer. He went back to North Korea and started a small home congregation--with full knowledge that his government would execute him without mercy if he were ever discovered. He knew that every person he approached with the gospel could be the one who would turn him in.

Yet he did it. And yes, he was eventually turned in. And yes, he was quickly executed. His congregation was hunted down and imprisoned.

But the Church in North Korea grows.

 

[Extraneous]

What did I just say about Christians in North Korea?

North Korea has been horrendously hostile to Christianity for more than half a century (and was only awfully hostile to Christians before that). They imprison entire families for life in prison camps and commit torture atrocities on women and children that can't be related in a forum like this. But in the mid 90s, I provided to my boss an intelligence report that documented the torture practices of North Korean prison guards on Christian women (the guards actually got military awards for inventiveness in torture methods). My boss was a Marine colonel who had an entire row of Purple Hearts from Vietnam. His head looked like Frankenstein with so many scars running through his face and scalp.

He read three pages into that report, turned white as a sheet, pushed it away and said, "I can't read any more of that #@#&*."

A few years ago, a North Korean government official visited China. A Chinese Christian pastor spoke the gospel to him, and that North Korean government official became a believer. He went back to North Korea and started a small home congregation--with full knowledge that his government would execute him without mercy if he were ever discovered. He knew that every person he approached with the gospel could be the one who would turn him in.

Yet he did it. And yes, he was eventually turned in. And yes, he was quickly executed. His congregation was hunted down and imprisoned.

But the Church in North Korea grows.

Im ready to die brother, you think im joking but im not. I cant handle anymore religion, nor myself either. Its ok to bomb our enemies, as long as you go to church on sunday. Im having a hard time with all this. Who wants to live like this?


Romans 7:24 O wretched man that I am! Who will deliver me from this body of death? 25 I thank God—through Jesus Christ our Lord!

So then, with the mind I myself serve the law of God, but with the flesh the law of sin.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I live in a representative republic, not a communist state (at least, not yet), so I deal the hand God has given me. I don't act as if I am in a communist state if I am not in one. I vote, as a Christian, because I can and should.

Governments bear the sword to protect citizens and implement justice on behalf of God. And, governments go to war to stop evil men from killing and severely oppressing people. Leave a Hitler alone to fulfill his dreams and millions die.

Whether or not governments knowingly or willingly serve God, they do so nonetheless. "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God." (Romans 13:1)

All this is not to say that they main objective or strategy of the Christian is found through political power. The only lasting hope for mankind is reconciliation to God through Christ; however, we participate in a lot of temporal actives while we are here in this temporal world.

 

[Extraneous]

I live in a representative republic, not a communist state (at least, not yet), so I deal the hand God has given me. I don't act as if I am in a communist state if I am not in one. I vote, as a Christian, because I can and should.

Governments bear the sword to protect citizens and implement justice on behalf of God. And, governments go to war to stop evil men from killing and severely oppressing people. Hitler left alone to fulfill his dreams and millions more would have been killed.

Whether or not governments knowingly or willingly serve God, they do so nonetheless. "Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God." (Romans 13:1)

All this is not to say that they main objective or strategy of the Christian is found through political power. The only lasting hope for mankind is reconciliation to God through Christ; however, we participate in a lot of temporal actives while we are here in this temporal world.

Dont be scared. After being around this mess im ready to die. Dont fear it brother, embrace it, it makes a lot of sense.

 

[Extraneous]

Seriously, to be martyred would be a blessing.