You Can't be a Christian and Vote for. . .

[Extraneous]

2 John 1:9 Whoever transgresses[d] and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; 11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.

Hebrews 12:14 Follow peace with all men, and holiness, without which no man shall see the Lord:

Revelation 18 After these things I saw another angel coming down from heaven, having great authority, and the earth was illuminated with his glory. 2 And he cried mightily[a] with a loud voice, saying, “Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and has become a dwelling place of demons, a prison for every foul spirit, and a cage for every unclean and hated bird! 3 For all the nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth have become rich through the abundance of her luxury.”

4 And I heard another voice from heaven saying, “Come out of her, my people, lest you share in her sins, and lest you receive of her plagues. 5 For her sins have reached to heaven, and God has remembered her iniquitie



2 Corinthians 6:14 Do not be unequally yoked together with unbelievers. For what fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness? And what communion has light with darkness? 15 And what accord has Christ with Belial? Or what part has a believer with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement has the temple of God with idols? For you[a] are the temple of the living God. As God has said:

“I will dwell in them
And walk among them.
I will be their God,
And they shall be My people.”
17 Therefore

“Come out from among them
And be separate, says the Lord.
Do not touch what is unclean,
And I will receive you.”[c]
18 “I will be a Father to you,
And you shall be My sons and daughters,
Says the Lord Almighty.”[d]

 

[Caretaker]

Yes - seems to me the scriptures are more than clear on this point. I don't think Martin Luther's "two kingdom" theology was in accordance with the Word of God as set forth in the New Testament.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Hmmmm .... Presbyterian .... dual citizenship .... sounds like we may be getting a dose of Martin Luther's two kingdom theology, yes/no?

No. Just common sense.

Believe me, if I could convince the IRS that I don't owe them any money because I am a citizen of Heaven, not the US, I would try.

I've also been crucified with Christ, yet I am still alive, and just ate dinner. I set my mind on things above, yet I think about my work here. The Father supplies my daily bread, yet I wake up and head to work. . .

We must not read the Bible like fundies. It's neither correct nor healthy. We must hold the tension inherent in all doctrine.

We live in the already and not yet.

 

[Extraneous]

No. Just common sense.

Believe me, if I could convince the IRS that I don't owe them any money because I am a citizen of Heaven, not the US, I would try.

I've also been crucified with Christ, yet I am still alive, and just ate dinner. I set my mind on things above, yet I think about my work here. The Father supplies my daily bread, yet I wake up and head to work. . .

We must not read the Bible like fundies. It's neither correct nor healthy. We must hold the tension inherent in all doctrine.

We live in the already and not yet.

Surely the scriptures teach us to pay our taxes. They don't however tell us to follow politicians, or to be like them, nor to share in their sins. If you vote for any politician you're voting for rebellion against God. We are called to be separate, holy. The politicians are there to judge the world and God doesnt need our vote for that. He alone has authority and he alone established kings and nations. To follow a politician, and vote for one, is to lack faith in God.

 

[Caretaker]

No. Just common sense.

Believe me, if I could convince the IRS that I don't owe them any money because I am a citizen of Heaven, not the US, I would try.

I've also been crucified with Christ, yet I am still alive, and just ate dinner. I set my mind on things above, yet I think about my work here. The Father supplies my daily bread, yet I wake up and head to work. . .

We must not read the Bible like fundies. It's neither correct nor healthy. We must hold the tension inherent in all doctrine.

We live in the already and not yet.

So, then, when your earthly kingdom requires you to muster in with the military and bear arms against it's enemies you'll go along? And if it ordered you to slay a prophet you would?

Are you sure you really are submitting to an earthly king? If so, you can't submit to God. Render unto Caesar what is Caesar's, and render unto God what is God's. My soul is God's.

You're going to have to decide who is supreme.

If you pick God, then you'll no longer have dual citizenship.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I gave you quite a sufficient, logical, and biblical answer, so I'll do no more. Your reply was a bit OTT, odd, judgmental, and insulting, so forgive me if I don't respond to you further.

 

[Extraneous]

James 1:5 If any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all liberally and without reproach, and it will be given to him. 6 But let him ask in faith, with no doubting, for he who doubts is like a wave of the sea driven and tossed by the wind.

 

[Extraneous]

I gave you quite a sufficient, logical, and biblical answer, so I'll do no more. Your reply was a bit OTT, odd, judgmental, and insulting, so forgive me if I don't respond to you further.

His/Her reply sounded like Revelation to me.

 

[Caretaker]

I gave you quite a sufficient, logical, and biblical answer, so I'll do no more. Your reply was a bit OTT, odd, judgmental, and insulting, so forgive me if I don't respond to you further.

Sorry you are copping that attitude. I'm thinking your reticence has more to do with being faced with a difficult choice that you're not prepared to deal with at the moment, and are lashing out at me.

Remember, as someone pointed out earlier, it was Jesus who said it is not possible to follow two masters. That is the problem with Luther's "two kingdom" theology. In order to obey the earthly government one must disobey the commandments of Jesus.

The attempt by some to straddle that fence places them in a very uncomfortable position, which is I suspect, why you seem to be getting a bit grumpy!

Peace, brother. I'm looking forward to further dialogue with you when you're ready.

 

[RDKirk]

I agree we are not dual citizens, but that does not mean we are not to minister and witness to those in power. What of Joseph, Daniel, and John the Baptist? What of Israel's prophets? Where in the New Testament are government officials excluded from the "Great Commission"?

What does that have to do with participation in their activities? Even Billy Graham had more sense that that. As I've said, note that Daniel was not so wedded to the government of Babylon that he could not slide right into the same job working for Persia.

Likewise, someone who claimed to be a "minister and witness to those in power" would not be so wedded to any particular political party that he could not continue to witness to whoever came to power.

 

[RDKirk]

Le


Let's not be so quick to abandon God's creation to the devil. God has not:
"The earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein." -- Psalm 24:1

What does that have to do with economic and political entities created by men? The Lord created the earth, the Lord created mankind. The Lord did not create mankind's follies.

 

[RDKirk]

I'm sure. April 15th is just around the corner, and I'll be writing a check to the IRS. They tax US citizens.

Christians must live in a tension on every single point of doctrine e.g. is Jesus God or man? Refuse to accept that tension, and you are off in error. We live in this world and we are to be stewards of the earth, which was the first work God gave Adam. However, we know that this earth, in it's current state, is not our home. There will be a new Earth and we will have new bodies. Until then, we are dual citizens.

We are therefore Christ's ambassadors... 2 Corinthians 5

An ambassador is not a dual citizen. An ambassador owes his entire loyalty every waking moment to only one king, never to the country he is assigned to.

 

[RDKirk]

No. Just common sense.

Believe me, if I could convince the IRS that I don't owe them any money because I am a citizen of Heaven, not the US, I would try.

There's no "common sense" about it. In fact, it conflicts with even the common sense of man's government.

As I've said before, when I was in the military stationed overseas, we were required by our commander to pay whatever taxes the host country levied on us. In the same way, diplomatic staff under certain circumstances also have to pay taxes to the host nations. But in no case do deployed soldiers or diplomats ever think they are dual citizens because their own commanders and kings directed them to honor the host nation.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

The material world was made by God, and He instructed Adam (therefore mankind) to subdue it. It's not optional. Christians especially have a responsibility to actively rule and subdue, and that happens through government and through gospel.

We do not, and never will, have some ethereal existence. We live and act within a material realm, again, God's plan.

 

[Caretaker]

What does that have to do with participation in their activities? Even Billy Graham had more sense that that. As I've said, note that Daniel was not so wedded to the government of Babylon that he could not slide right into the same job working for Persia.

Likewise, someone who claimed to be a "minister and witness to those in power" would not be so wedded to any particular political party that he could not continue to witness to whoever came to power.

OK, so you're arguing that Christians should not participate in politics at all, i.e., not vote, not campaign, not run for office, not accept appointment? If so, I can respect that, while noting the OT counter examples of Joseph, Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednigo.

 

[Caretaker]

What does that have to do with economic and political entities created by men? The Lord created the earth, the Lord created mankind. The Lord did not create mankind's follies.

I agree. My caution had to do with imagining that the devil is ultimately sovereign over the earth as opposed to God.

 

[Caretaker]

The material world was made by God, and He instructed Adam (therefore mankind) to subdue it. It's not optional. Christians especially have a responsibility to actively rule and subdue, and that happens through government and through gospel.

We do not, and never will, have some ethereal existence. We live and act within a material world, again, God's plan.

"Christians especially have a responsibility to actively rule and subdue ...."

I've got to tell you that sounds pretty much like "manifest destiny". Is that what you intended?

 

[Extraneous]

OK, so you're arguing that Christians should not participate in politics at all, i.e., not vote, not campaign, not run for office, not accept appointment? If so, I can respect that, while noting the OT counter examples of Joseph, Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednigo.

They are not counter examples. Christ didn't come to rule on earth, but in His kingdom instead. To vote for politicians is to vote for Cesar. Politics assumes that it can rule the world, as if God needed our vote to do what he is going to do anyway. All politics will do is cause us to become unfruitful. We will not be living in peace with all men but contention and strife instead. We will vote for men who will kill our enemies. We will be lead into covetousness with Health Care and economic concerns. We will not be seeking Christs kingdom, not be loving others, not living in peace with them, and we will lead others down the same worldly path. Its not holiness.

Look at the works of flesh, and what it means to seek Gods kingdom as well, and you will see that politics are a great deception, which blind leaders will lead the blind into.

 

[Sketcher]

If we vote for any politician, we will agree with their wars, there abortions, their rebellion against God. It doesnt matter which side you vote for, you will be voting for rebellion against God.


2 John 1:9 Whoever transgresses[d] and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; 11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.

Revelation 13:9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Matthew 26:52 “Put away your sword,” Jesus told him. “Those who use the sword will die by the sword.

Does your church take any votes for its leaders or policies among members, deacons, or elders?