You Can't be a Christian and Vote for. . .

[Caretaker]

Seems as if politics can be a "stumbling block" that divides those who express interest in following Jesus. Perhaps it would be better - and more in line with the New Testament - if those who strive to follow Christ would abstain from politics?

How central is politics to striving to follow Jesus' direction in the Great Commission (Matthew 28:16-20)?

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Seems as if politics can be a "stumbling block" that divides those who express interest in following Jesus. Perhaps it would be better - and more in line with the New Testament - if those who strive to follow Christ would abstain from politics?

How central is politics to striving to follow Jesus' direction in the Great Commission (Matthew 28:16-20)?

That's a common sentiment; however, I think it's wrong. We are dual citizens, so we are to be involved in all aspects of this life in order to be good stewards and help create or keep governance that allows Christianity and Christians to thrive.

 

[RDKirk]

That's a common sentiment; however, I think it's wrong. We are dual citizens, so we are to be involved in all aspects of this life in order to be good stewards and help create or keep governance that allows Christianity and Christians to thrive.

My daughter was born in the Philippines, and thus the Republic of the Philippines considers her a citizen of their nation. But when she was born, I took her Filipino birth certificate along with my wife's and my passports down to the American consulate and got her certified as an "A citizen of the United States of America born abroad."

Regardless of the laws of the Philippines, no American document anywhere identifies my daughter as a citizen of the Philippines. None. Not a single one. Every US document calls her a citizen of the United States. Absolutely nowhere does the United States recognize any Philippine citizenship for my daughter. None. Anywhere.

And the same is true of Christians. There is no identification in Heaven of a "dual citizenship" of any Christian on earth. The Book of Life has nobody listed as "American Christian" or "Japanese Christian" or "Nigerian Christian."

Rather, what scripture explicitly says is that we are "citizens of Heaven" and "aliens" in these earthly countries. It calls us "pilgrims and sojourners." You don't see anywhere in scripture where the Body of Christ is called to fix the Roman Empire. That's a mission that men invented, not God.

Nor is it necessary. The Body of Christ is counting a thousand new Christians a week in China. The number of Christians even in North Korea has risen from about 5,000 in 1995 to about 50,000 today--so many that Kim Jong Un has abandoned attempts to exterminate the Church and is now trying to co-opt it. "Thriving" is nicer than being burned at the stake, but it's not necessary for the mission, and if China and North Korea are comparisons to the state of Christianity in the US, "thriving" may be a hindrance to evangelism.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

My daughter was born in the Philippines, and thus the Republic of the Philippines considers her a citizen of their nation. But when she was born, I took her Filipino birth certificate along with my wife's and my passports down to the American consulate and got her certified as an "A citizen of the United States of America born abroad."

Regardless of the laws of the Philippines, no American document anywhere identifies my daughter as a citizen of the Philippines. None. Not a single one. Every US document calls her a citizen of the United States. Absolutely nowhere does the United States recognize any Philippine citizenship for my daughter. None. Anywhere.

And the same is true of Christians. There is no identification in Heaven of a "dual citizenship" of any Christian on earth. The Book of Life has nobody listed as "American Christian" or "Japanese Christian" or "Nigerian Christian."

Rather, what scripture explicitly says is that we are "citizens of Heaven" and "aliens" in these earthly countries. It calls us "pilgrims and sojourners." You don't see anywhere in scripture where the Body of Christ is called to fix the Roman Empire. That's a mission that men invented, not God.

Nor is it necessary. The Body of Christ is counting a thousand new Christians a week in China. The number of Christians even in North Korea has risen from about 5,000 in 1995 to about 50,000 today--so many that Kim Jong Un has abandoned attempts to exterminate the Church and is now trying to co-opt it. "Thriving" is nicer than being burned at the stake, but it's not necessary for the mission, and if China and North Korea are comparisons to the state of Christianity in the US, "thriving" may be a hindrance to evangelism.

Ironically, although I mentioned "dual", your's is the dualistic view. You pit earth against Heaven. Both are the Lord's.

This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says to all those I carried into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon: “Build houses and settle down; plant gardens and eat what they produce. Marry and have sons and daughters; find wives for your sons and give your daughters in marriage, so that they too may have sons and daughters. Increase in number there; do not decrease. Also, seek the peace and prosperity of the city to which I have carried you into exile. Pray to the Lord for it, because if it prospers, you too will prosper.” (Jeremiah 29:4-7)​

 

[RDKirk]

Ironically, although I mentioned "dual", your's is the dualistic view. You pit earth against Heaven. Both are the Lord's.

This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says to all those I carried into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon: “Build houses and settle down; plant gardens and eat what they produce. Marry and have sons and daughters; find wives for your sons and give your daughters in marriage, so that they too may have sons and daughters. Increase in number there; do not decrease. Also, seek the peace and prosperity of the city to which I have carried you into exile. Pray to the Lord for it, because if it prospers, you too will prosper.” (Jeremiah 29:4-7)​

No! I do not pit heaven against earth. Yes, the planet is the Lord's; the political and economic inventions of men are not of God. God does not claim them, God will destroy them.

And he [Satan] said to him [Jesus], "I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. -- Luke 4:6

I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. -- John 14:13

Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. -- 2 Corinthians 4

A lot of people who call themselves Christians nevertheless greatly treasure being citizens of the United States, but:

"...where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." Matthew 6

 

[Extraneous]

That's a common sentiment; however, I think it's wrong. We are dual citizens, so we are to be involved in all aspects of this life in order to be good stewards and help create or keep governance that allows Christianity and Christians to thrive.

We are not duel citizens. What you describe is trying to serve two masters.

We cant walk in politics because its a work of the flesh. Its full of lies, contention, division, slander, hypocrisy, war, covetousness and all manner of worldliness.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

No! I do not pit heaven against earth. Yes, the planet is the Lord's; the political and economic inventions of men are not of God. God does not claim them, God will destroy them.

And he [Satan] said to him [Jesus], "I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. -- Luke 4:6

I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. -- John 14:13

Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. -- 2 Corinthians 4

A lot of people who call themselves Christians nevertheless greatly treasure being citizens of the United States, but:

"...where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." Matthew 6

There is no authority on earth that is not by God's doing, or out of His control. "The earth is the Lord's and everything in it" (Psalm 24:1)

"Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God." (Romans 13:1)

 

[RDKirk]

Ironically, although I mentioned "dual", your's is the dualistic view. You pit earth against Heaven. Both are the Lord's.

This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says to all those I carried into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon: “Build houses and settle down; plant gardens and eat what they produce. Marry and have sons and daughters; find wives for your sons and give your daughters in marriage, so that they too may have sons and daughters. Increase in number there; do not decrease. Also, seek the peace and prosperity of the city to which I have carried you into exile. Pray to the Lord for it, because if it prospers, you too will prosper.” (Jeremiah 29:4-7)​

Regarding the passage in Jeremiah:

Then Ezra the priest stood up and said to them, “You have been unfaithful by marrying foreign women, adding to Israel’s guilt.

Therefore, make a confession to Yahweh the God of your fathers and do His will. Separate yourselves from the surrounding peoples and your foreign wives.” -- Ezra 10

At no point did God intend the Israelites to "go native" in Babylon. They were always to retain their cultural, moral, and national identity and peculiarity as citizens of Israel.

 

[RDKirk]

There is no authority on earth that is not by God's doing, or out of His control. "The earth is the Lord's and everything in it" (Psalm 24:1)

"Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God." (Romans 13:1)

True, even Satan himself is under God's control.

Does the fact that Satan is under God's control mean he's okay to follow?

 

[Caretaker]

That's a common sentiment; however, I think it's wrong. We are dual citizens, so we are to be involved in all aspects of this life in order to be good stewards and help create or keep governance that allows Christianity and Christians to thrive.

Hmmmmm ....."dual citizens"?? Are you sure? "In the world but not of the world" does not sound to me like dual citizenship ...

 

[Caretaker]

My daughter was born in the Philippines, and thus the Republic of the Philippines considers her a citizen of their nation. But when she was born, I took her Filipino birth certificate along with my wife's and my passports down to the American consulate and got her certified as an "A citizen of the United States of America born abroad."

Regardless of the laws of the Philippines, no American document anywhere identifies my daughter as a citizen of the Philippines. None. Not a single one. Every US document calls her a citizen of the United States. Absolutely nowhere does the United States recognize any Philippine citizenship for my daughter. None. Anywhere.

And the same is true of Christians. There is no identification in Heaven of a "dual citizenship" of any Christian on earth. The Book of Life has nobody listed as "American Christian" or "Japanese Christian" or "Nigerian Christian."

Rather, what scripture explicitly says is that we are "citizens of Heaven" and "aliens" in these earthly countries. It calls us "pilgrims and sojourners." You don't see anywhere in scripture where the Body of Christ is called to fix the Roman Empire. That's a mission that men invented, not God.

Nor is it necessary. The Body of Christ is counting a thousand new Christians a week in China. The number of Christians even in North Korea has risen from about 5,000 in 1995 to about 50,000 today--so many that Kim Jong Un has abandoned attempts to exterminate the Church and is now trying to co-opt it. "Thriving" is nicer than being burned at the stake, but it's not necessary for the mission, and if China and North Korea are comparisons to the state of Christianity in the US, "thriving" may be a hindrance to evangelism.

I agree we are not dual citizens, but that does not mean we are not to minister and witness to those in power. What of Joseph, Daniel, and John the Baptist? What of Israel's prophets? Where in the New Testament are government officials excluded from the "Great Commission"?

 

[Caretaker]

Ironically, although I mentioned "dual", your's is the dualistic view. You pit earth against Heaven. Both are the Lord's.

This is what the Lord Almighty, the God of Israel, says to all those I carried into exile from Jerusalem to Babylon: “Build houses and settle down; plant gardens and eat what they produce. Marry and have sons and daughters; find wives for your sons and give your daughters in marriage, so that they too may have sons and daughters. Increase in number there; do not decrease. Also, seek the peace and prosperity of the city to which I have carried you into exile. Pray to the Lord for it, because if it prospers, you too will prosper.” (Jeremiah 29:4-7)​

I understand that as being in the world, but not being of the world, and also of witnessing to the world. That's what Jesus and his disciples are all about.

 

[Caretaker]

Le

No! I do not pit heaven against earth. Yes, the planet is the Lord's; the political and economic inventions of men are not of God. God does not claim them, God will destroy them.

And he [Satan] said to him [Jesus], "I will give you all their authority and splendor; it has been given to me, and I can give it to anyone I want to. -- Luke 4:6

I will not say much more to you, for the prince of this world is coming. -- John 14:13

Satan, who is the god of this world, has blinded the minds of those who don’t believe. -- 2 Corinthians 4

A lot of people who call themselves Christians nevertheless greatly treasure being citizens of the United States, but:

"...where your treasure is, there your heart will be also." Matthew 6

Let's not be so quick to abandon God's creation to the devil. God has not:
"The earth is the Lord's, and the fulness thereof; the world, and they that dwell therein." -- Psalm 24:1

 

[Caretaker]

There is no authority on earth that is not by God's doing, or out of His control. "The earth is the Lord's and everything in it" (Psalm 24:1)

"Let every person be subject to the governing authorities. For there is no authority except from God, and those that exist have been instituted by God." (Romans 13:1)

Yup! Hadn't seen that when I made a similar post.

Agreed!

 

[Caretaker]

Regarding the passage in Jeremiah:

Then Ezra the priest stood up and said to them, “You have been unfaithful by marrying foreign women, adding to Israel’s guilt.

Therefore, make a confession to Yahweh the God of your fathers and do His will. Separate yourselves from the surrounding peoples and your foreign wives.” -- Ezra 10

At no point did God intend the Israelites to "go native" in Babylon. They were always to retain their cultural, moral, and national identity and peculiarity as citizens of Israel.

Agreed! They, too, were intended to be separate.

 

[Extraneous]

Revelation 13:9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Matthew 26:52 “Put away your sword,” Jesus told him. “Those who use the sword will die by the sword.

 

[Caretaker]

True, even Satan himself is under God's control.

Does the fact that Satan is under God's control mean he's okay to follow?

Absolutely not!

 

[Extraneous]

If we vote for any politician, we will agree with their wars, there abortions, their rebellion against God. It doesnt matter which side you vote for, you will be voting for rebellion against God.


2 John 1:9 Whoever transgresses[d] and does not abide in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. He who abides in the doctrine of Christ has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this doctrine, do not receive him into your house nor greet him; 11 for he who greets him shares in his evil deeds.

Revelation 13:9 If anyone has an ear, let him hear. 10 He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Matthew 26:52 “Put away your sword,” Jesus told him. “Those who use the sword will die by the sword.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

Hmmmmm ....."dual citizens"?? Are you sure? "In the world but not of the world" does not sound to me like dual citizenship ...

I'm sure. April 15th is just around the corner, and I'll be writing a check to the IRS. They tax US citizens.

Christians must live in a tension on every single point of doctrine e.g. is Jesus God or man? Refuse to accept that tension, and you are off in error. We live in this world and we are to be stewards of the earth, which was the first work God gave Adam. However, we know that this earth, in it's current state, is not our home. There will be a new Earth and we will have new bodies. Until then, we are dual citizens.

 

[Caretaker]

I'm sure. April 15th is just around the corner, and I'll be writing a check to the IRS. They tax US citizens.

Christians must live in a tension on every single point of doctrine e.g. is Jesus God or man? Refuse to accept that tension, and you are off in error. We live in this world and we are to be stewards of the earth, which was the first work God gave Adam. However, we know that this earth, in it's current state, is not our home. There will be a new Earth and we will have new bodies. Until then, we are dual citizens.

Hmmmm .... Presbyterian .... dual citizenship .... sounds like we may be getting a dose of Martin Luther's two kingdom theology, yes/no?