"You are Peter, and upon this rock..."

[Meowzltov]

Splendid! ,'The Church in England',?? Good girl, you'r learning!
best wishes.

Yes, I'm always careful to distinguish between the Church IN England (prior to Henry breaking with Rome, also known as the Catholic Church) and the Church OF England (set up by Henry, also known as the Anglican Church).

 

[Root of Jesse]

In the early 17th Century when persecution of ,left footers was at its height, one of our clergy was travelling in his coach past an inn. Outside the inn was a table and a gang of drinkers partying. They were discussing Roman Theology at the top of their voices,he stopped and I think joined in with them. After leaving he wrote a well known book, or , tract to put the Traditionalist point of view. The the Calvinist /protestants put him on trial for heresy, or some such.
That was Anglican Persecution for you in the dangerous times in Britain. Your lot could discuss ouside in the air , with passing foot and horse traffic, while partying Jesuits invited passers by to debate with them! Nothing wrong with that you might say and I would agree, but Anglican persecution was nothing compared with the Inquisition.
I must say that I'm glad to hear your views.

What is your understanding of the Inquisition?

 

[Root of Jesse]

"Nevertheless, the best estimate from Wikipedia is that approximately 70,000 people were executed (for all offenses) during the reign of Henry VIII. Another critic suggests that there may have been 4,000 Catholics killed under Henry VIII, not “judicially” executed, but killed by agents of the Crown, soldiers and the like."
​

In the lowest case, that of 4,000, that is still more than twice as many as the Inquisition.

And in much less time. The Inquisition lasted 700 years or so.

 

[JustHisKid]

"And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it" Mat 16:18

How do Protestants explain the continuity of the Church as promised to Peter (and the disciples, presumably), that "the gates of Hell will not overcome it", when the Church seems to have faced a serious rupture, assuming the various Protestant sects are true. What kind of continuity does Luther or Calvin have with Thomas Aquinas or Anselm, for instance? Were people in the middle ages saved through the sacraments of the Church and their faith, such as they had it? If so, why the need for schism?

I'm not a protestant, but I can tell you what I believe.

Matthew 16
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

What God revealed to Peter is the foundation of the church. That was the point of Jesus saying it right after God revealed to Peter who Jesus is. The 'church' believes Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. Those whom God reveals this truth to are the church. The gates of hell cannot hold back (prevail against) the coming of Christ's church. We storm the gates of hell and bring the truth of the gospel!

 

[Root of Jesse]

I'm not a protestant, but I can tell you what I believe.

Matthew 16
14 And they said, Some say that thou art John the Baptist: some, Elias; and others, Jeremias, or one of the prophets.
15 He saith unto them, But whom say ye that I am?
16 And Simon Peter answered and said, Thou art the Christ, the Son of the living God.
17 And Jesus answered and said unto him, Blessed art thou, Simon Barjona: for flesh and blood hath not revealed it unto thee, but my Father which is in heaven.
18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

What God revealed to Peter is the foundation of the church. That was the point of Jesus saying it right after God revealed to Peter who Jesus is. The 'church' believes Jesus is the Christ, the Son of the living God. Those whom God reveals this truth to are the church. The gates of hell cannot hold back (prevail against) the coming of Christ's church. We storm the gates of hell and bring the truth of the gospel!

Right. But that does not preclude the fact that he made Peter the head of the visible Church on Earth.

 

[JustHisKid]

Right. But that does not preclude the fact that he made Peter the head of the visible Church on Earth.

I definitely don't read that into that passage.

 

[Alithis]

Right. But that does not preclude the fact that he made Peter the head of the visible Church on Earth.

it doesn't say he did .. thats for sure .
peter isn't the head of the church .. Christ is the head of his body the church . none other .

 

[JustHisKid]

it doesn't say he did .. thats for sure .
peter isn't the head of the church .. Christ is the head of his body the church . none other .

Exactly. Anyone who puts man at the head of the church has got it all wrong.

 

[Meowzltov]

peter isn't the head of the church .. Christ is the head of his body the church . none other .

This is a non sequitor. No one says he isn't. Christ is the King, but the King has a prime minister who represents him while he is away.

 

[JustHisKid]

This is a non sequitor. No one says he isn't. Christ is the King, but the King has a prime minister who represents him while he is away.

No, He doesn't. He isn't away. He is right here, the acting head of His church.

 

[Meowzltov]

No, He doesn't. He isn't away. He is right here, the acting head of His church.

No, Jesus is not here on earth. He is in heaven with the Father. That is why he sent the holy spirit. It's also why he needs a vicar here on earth to act for him.

 

[JustHisKid]

No, Jesus is not here on earth. He is in heaven with the Father. That is why he needs a vicar here on earth to act for him.

Jesus is absolutely here on earth, inside of all those who belong to Him. He neither needs a vicar nor does He have one. He speaks directly to His people. HE is our head. HE is our only mediator. HE is not absent. HE IS RIGHT HERE. It is unfortunate that some people miss out on that. It is vitally important that you know it.

 

[Meowzltov]

Jesus is absolutely here on earth, inside of all those who belong to Him. He neither needs a vicar nor does He have one. He speaks directly to His people. HE is our head. HE is our only mediator. HE is not absent. HE IS RIGHT HERE. It is unfortunate that some people miss out on that. It is vitally important that you know it.

It is the holy spirit who is inside of us, and the holy spirit does not rule. Jesus does not speak directly to us, he nudges us with a still small voice. He is NOT right here, you are fooling yourself. Jesus does not, for example, tell us what to do about climate change. We need a real live voice to speak to us about things like that.

 

[Root of Jesse]

it doesn't say he did .. thats for sure .
peter isn't the head of the church .. Christ is the head of his body the church . none other .

So if it's not explicit, you don't believe it? Like the table of contents of the Bible, it's not explicit, so how do you know you can trust it, and that the Catholic one isn't the right one? Also, the doctrine of the Trinity is not in the Bible, explicitly, so do you discount it?

 

[Root of Jesse]

Exactly. Anyone who puts man at the head of the church has got it all wrong.

Christ is the head, Peter is His representative, and those who were chosen pope after him. Christ didn't leave a rudderless ship.

 

[Root of Jesse]

No, He doesn't. He isn't away. He is right here, the acting head of His church.

I love it! "We don't know who is, but we know it ain't him." And yet the Church believed what Jesus said for 1500 years before anyone thought to question it. And the Church still does believe what Jesus said.

 

[JustHisKid]

It is the holy spirit who is inside of us, and the holy spirit does not rule. Jesus does not speak directly to us, he nudges us with a still small voice. He is NOT right here, you are fooling yourself. Jesus does not, for example, tell us what to do about climate change. We need a real live voice to speak to us about things like that.

Yes, Jesus' Spirit. HIM. Jesus speaks directly to me. I'm sorry He doesn't speak to you. If you try speaking directly to Him, He will respond. He is not silent. Most people are just not listening.

 

[JustHisKid]

Christ is the head, Peter is His representative, and those who were chosen pope after him. Christ didn't leave a rudderless ship.

Wrong. Christ is the head and I am His representative, as are all His Body, born-again believers. I am certainly not rudderless.

 

[JustHisKid]

I love it! "We don't know who is, but we know it ain't him." And yet the Church believed what Jesus said for 1500 years before anyone thought to question it. And the Church still does believe what Jesus said.

You don't know who Jesus is? There is no pope. He is man-made. Jesus is my head, as He is the head of all of His people.

 

[Root of Jesse]

Yes, Jesus' Spirit. HIM. Jesus speaks directly to me. I'm sorry He doesn't speak to you. If you try speaking directly to Him, He will respond. He is not silent. Most people are just not listening.

How do you know He doesn't speak to her, or us? We listen to Him, but there's a leader on Earth. This was Jesus' direct teaching. "Who hears you (he said to Peter) hears me. What you open, no one can shut, what you shut, no one can open."