You Are Not Going To Heaven

[Mikecpking]

Paradise "was" in the heart of the earth, not in heaven. Mat 12:40..."For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
Read the account of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16...Paradise was beside Hades.

Hi,
Luke 16 was a parable. It certainly is not 'literal' as Jesus was having a dig at the pharisees.

 

[jds1977]

Hi,
Luke 16 was a parable. It certainly is not 'literal' as Jesus was having a dig at the pharisees.

Luke 16:19-31 is no parable. Either there was a man named Lazarus or Jesus lied. Either there was a rich man in hell, or Jesus lied. Is Abraham also not literal? Of course not. When specific names are named, it's no parable, it's a literal account. What purpose would it be to allegorize this passage, just to get a "dig at the Pharisees"? Or is Jesus telling an actual account as a warning. Most people claim this passage as a parable because they can't conceive God punishing sinners in the torments of hell.
Here's another thought...where is the heart of the earth? Is it a tomb in Jerusalem? No. The heart of the earth is the center of the earth. Jesus said He would go there for 3 days. If it wasn't the heart of the earth, He'd have said: "Even so must the Son of Man be just under the upper portion of the crust of the earth".

 

[jds1977]

Paridise is in the grave??? Good luck with that line...LOL

It's odd you think that's funny. Jesus was not being a comedian in Luke 16:19-31. Where is the heart of the earth in Matthew 12:40, " For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth". Is a grave the heart of the earth? You fail to realize the word Hades has more than one meaning.
In Biblical Greek it is associated with Orcus, the infernal regions, a dark and dismal place in the very depths of the earth, the common receptacle of disembodied spirits. Usually Hades is just the abode of the wicked, Luk 16:23, Rev 20:13, 14; a very uncomfortable place. (TDNT)
Explain this passage, Ephesians 4:8-10,
Therefore it says, "WHEN HE ASCENDED ON HIGH, HE LED CAPTIVE A HOST OF CAPTIVES, AND HE GAVE GIFTS TO MEN."
(Now this {expression,} "He ascended," what does it mean except that He also had descended into the lower parts of the earth?
He who descended is Himself also He who ascended far above all the heavens, so that He might fill all things.)

 

[Gary51]

Luke 16:19-31 it's no parable, it's a literal account.

The Meaning of Lazarus and the Rich Man

Surely some will ask, “What about Lazarus and the rich man? Didn’t they both die and go to heaven and hell, respectively? Isn’t this the lesson of the story?” Sadly, the account of Lazarus and the rich man is almost universally misunderstood. Nearly everyone asserts that it is not a parable but rather a literal representation of the afterlife. This statement cannot withstand the scrutiny of facts. All one must do is start with the assumption that it is literal and then attempt to explain the elements in it as though they can only be taken literally. The difficulty in doing this will be made clear by this exercise.
For those who remain unconvinced that it is a parable, turn to Mark 4:33-34. These two verses describe the pattern Christ always used to teach His disciples: “And with many such parables spoke He the word unto them, as they were able to hear it. But without a parable spoke He not unto them: and when they were alone, He expounded all things to His disciples.” Christ continually used parables to teach. In Mark 4, prior to these verses, He had just spoken three parables. The New Testament contains dozens of others. A parable is a story designed to illustrate a point. Apparently, in one way or another, Christ always used parables, for “without a parable spake He not unto them.” Remember—accept the Bible at face value. The story of Lazarus and the rich man is a parable and must be accepted as such.
The account of this parable is found in Luke 16:19-31. Take the time to read it—and get a complete picture of this story in your mind. Does it really say that when people die, they immediately go to either heaven or hell? We will see that it says no such thing!
We have only briefly touched on the subject of Christians (the meek) “inheriting the earth” as being the truth of the reward of the saved and how it supplants the common belief that heaven is their reward. This included a short examination of those who will awaken to immortality with God’s likeness at the time of the resurrection. Of course, we much more thoroughly discussed the subject of hell. Therefore, it will be considerably easier to clarify—to harmonize—the real fate of the rich man than that of Lazarus. The rich man suffered hell fire and Lazarus was saved. While this much is plain, what does it mean?
The account is best studied verse by verse with an open Bible. The explanation may periodically reference verses out of order so that we may sometimes examine a verse, phrase by phrase. Be prepared to take careful note of what the account does not say as well as what it does say. Also, look up each verse referenced (but not quoted) in the explanation.
Verses 19-21: These verses set the stage. They describe the parable’s two principal characters. Obviously, one is very wealthy and the other pitifully poor and miserable. One of the purposes of the parable is to demonstrate that Lazarus is a type of all Gentile Christians, who become Abraham’s children upon conversion. Read Galatians 3:7, 29.
Verse 22: Both men die. From this point forward, most people reading the account jump the track by making false assumptions. Most conclude that Lazarus is pictured as immediately arriving in heaven and the rich man as immediately arriving in an ever-burning hell. The account says neither of these things!
Notice! The verse says nothing whatsoever about either heaven or an ever-burning hell—period! Try to find these terms. They are not there. This verse states that Lazarus arrives at “Abraham’s bosom”—with no mention of when this occurs. The rich man is “buried!” That is all it says. Remember the rule: Take the verse for what it says—without adding to it or subtracting from it.
Lazarus’ presence at Abraham’s bosom depicts a very close, loving relationship. The apostle John is recorded as having reclined on Christ’s bosom as “the disciple whom Christ loved” (John 13:23). (Though John does not identify himself, probably because of modesty, it is clear whom the verse refers to.) So a special relationship is shown between Abraham and Lazarus, with no reference to either time or place. Describing a conversation during the time of Christ’s ministry, John 8:52-53 states (twice), “Abraham is dead.” At that point, Abraham had been dead for nearly 2,000 years. He is still dead! He is not waiting in heaven for people to come, immediately after death, and recline on his bosom. The meek inherit the earth when Christ returns to establish His kingdom! Abraham and Lazarus will be resurrected into the kingdom of God at Christ’s Second Coming. This is the meaning of the phrase.
Another rule of Bible study is found in II Peter 1:20. It cautions that “no…scripture is of any private interpretation.” Reviewing other essential scriptures makes this clear. Compare Daniel 7:18, 22, 27; Jude 14-15; and Revelation 5:10 with many other verses and it is obvious that the saints reign on the earth with Christ. Then notice that Matthew 25:31 shows that Christ returns with “the holy angels.” Recall that Lazarus was “carried by the angels” to Abraham’s bosom. Finally, compare this with Matthew 24:31 for further proof of the angels’ role in this way. (Read our free booklets Do the Saved Go to HEAVEN? and Just what is SALVATION?)
Verse 23: The rich man is obviously in hell. However, the word translated “hell” here is hades. This makes sense because hades is the grave and we read that the rich man had been “buried.” This means that he was put into a grave. There is no mystery about what happened to him. Therefore, the phrase “he lift up his eyes” also makes sense as no more than a reference to the resurrection described in John 5:29. We have previously examined this verse. This phrase is consistent with a resurrection, when people awaken—or “lift up their eyes.”
The rich man was also in “torments.” What does this mean? The Greek word translated “torments” is basanos. It is found in only one other place in the Bible. Its meaning is fascinating. It means “a touchstone, having to do with touching pure gold, against the particular stone, to test its purity and validity…to be under a severe trial, torture.” We will see that the rich man was, in fact, mentally tortured and in a severe trial. He was facing the lake of fire! Try to imagine a more serious trial than this. He had missed out on salvation and could clearly see Abraham and Lazarus in the kingdom of God.
Verse 24: This verse is usually cited to justify the classic version of hell where people burn but never completely burn up. Read it carefully. The rich man requests that Lazarus “cool his tongue” with a tiny amount of water—no more than a few drops on the tip of a finger. If you were roasting in a condition involving walls of fire all around you, would you merely ask for a few drops of water—and only for the purpose of cooling your tongue? Would you not rather ask for a whole pool of water to be dumped on you? I would! The rich man is again described as “tormented.” Understanding this word (“tormented&#8221 is the key to explaining the rich man’s condition. It is not basanos.
The word translated “tormented” is odunao. It means, “to grieve, sorrow, torment, duress, distress, strain.” No reference to roasting or burning is included in its definition. The rich man is described as being in mental torment because he is facing the lake of fire. Fear has seized him and given him the condition commonly referred to as “cotton mouth.” Great fear and distress often dry up the mouth. The rich man was hoping for Lazarus to moisten his tongue. We might also ask the following question of all those who believe in the immortality of the soul and who wish to take this parable literally. Do immortal souls have tongues? The reader may ponder this.
The phrase “in this flame” is mistranslated. The actual meaning in the Greek is “by reason of this flame.” This critical mistranslation entirely changes the scenario. The rich man was not yet “in the flame” but was tormented by fear because he saw it coming. He had good “reason” to be in mental anguish and torment.
Verse 25: This verse reinforces the element of the passing of time to properly understand the parable. Abraham answers the rich man by saying, “Son, remember that in your lifetime…” What would be the point of using the word “remember” if the rich man’s lifetime had ended just a few seconds prior to this conversation? Typically, people use the word remember when they are speaking of events that happened long ago! The passing of much time, since the rich man’s death, is confirmed at the end of the verse, when Abraham says, “but now he [Lazarus] is comforted.” It is apparent that the two words remember and now are contrasted to one another because significant time has passed. Both men had lain in the grave for a great while, until the time of their respective resurrections from the dead.
Verse 26: This verse describes what is called “a great gulf fixed” between where Abraham and Lazarus were and where the rich man was. Some believe this is a picture of a great physical distance between the locations of heaven and hell. It certainly does not say that. What exactly is this “great gulf fixed?”
Notice: “Behold, the Lord’s hand is not shortened, that it cannot save; neither His ear heavy, that it cannot hear: But your iniquities [lawlessness] have separated between you and your God, and your sins have hid His face from you, that He will not hear” (Isa. 59:1-2). Also Jeremiah 5:25: “Your iniquities have turned away these things, and your sins have withheld good things from you.” Now read Hebrews 10:26: “For if we sin willfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins.”
These verses show that sin, in all of its forms, cuts people off from God! God cannot bless, protect, heal, guide or save people who do not repent of and forsake sin. God is holy—He does not have contact with sin. Because of His perfect righteousness, He cannot! The rich man’s sins had cut him off from God. This is why Abraham said that no one on either side of this “gulf” was able to cross to the other side. It was impossible, literally!
Verses 27-28: These two verses can be taken together because they both describe the rich man’s request to send Lazarus to warn his brothers. This would be a natural request for any man concerned about his family. The rich man would have been unaware of how much time had passed since his death. He would have had no way of knowing unless he asked—and the account does not record that he did.
Verse 29: Abraham’s answer to this question is extremely important because it says what everyone alive today should do in their own lives. He warns that the five brothers (and, by inclusion, everyone else who has ever lived) should listen to “Moses and the prophets.” Abraham is emphatic—“let them hear them.” This is Christ’s instruction to an entire world that ignores the Bible, in general, and the words of Moses and the Old Testament prophets, in particular! This warning is here for you, the reader, to consider!
Verses 30-31: These two verses are also tremendously instructive, but in a slightly different way. They represent an amazing insight into the careless neglect and general disregard of God’s word that is so typical of human nature. When taken together, these verses demonstrate that people who are determined not to obey God—who are determined not to heed Moses and the prophets—won’t even be moved to action by a well-known person resurrected “from the dead”! What a stunning indictment of human stubbornness in the face of the plain truths of God. These verses contain a warning. Will you hear them?
The rich man had been given his opportunity in his lifetime. He realized that he had missed out on salvation. He also recognized that Lazarus had been resurrected “from the dead.” The scripture does not say that he was resurrected “from life”—it says that he had been resurrected “from the dead.” The entire account of this parable was used by Christ to teach the resurrection of the dead! This account was never intended to teach the idea of immediately going to heaven or hell upon death.

 

[jds1977]

Wow, Gary...big post...If you're going to copy and paste, please give credit to the writer. I'll try to answer in pieces and make this as simple as possible.

First, is a parable based upon reality or fantasy? Every parable Jesus gave was told in realistic settings and events. Even if it was a parable (which is a big "if"), then you're going to have to explain why Jesus would condone using Jewish fables/ myths, read Titus 1:14, "Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth."

Secondly, give me an example of Jesus giving a parable w/ specific names. Either there really was a man named Lazarus or Jesus lied and broke the 8th commandment.

One of the purposes of the parable is to demonstrate that Lazarus is a type of all Gentile Christians, who become Abraham’s children upon conversion. Read Galatians 3:7, 29.

And who's interpretation is this? Did Jesus specifically state this? Did Paul specifically state this? No on both accounts. Galatians is not and was not written to explain Luke 16. Paul was correcting the galatian believers trying to put Christians back under the law. It would do you good to read the WHOLE chapter.

(the meek) “inheriting the earth” as being the truth of the reward of the saved and how it supplants the common belief that heaven is their reward.

Heaven is not a reward...rewards are earned. You can't earn your way to heaven.

let me ask again...where is the heart of the earth?
Where is Jesus now?

 

[jds1977]

This verse states that Lazarus arrives at “Abraham’s bosom”—with no mention of when this occurs

Read the verse...it's very plain...
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
It's a succession of events; he died and was carried. Don't try to place a gap where there is none.

 

[jds1977]

So a special relationship is shown between Abraham and Lazarus, with no reference to either time or place. Describing a conversation during the time of Christ’s ministry, John 8:52-53 states (twice), “Abraham is dead.” At that point, Abraham had been dead for nearly 2,000 years. He is still dead! He is not waiting in heaven for people to come, immediately after death, and recline on his bosom.

I'm glad your article mentions this passage...read John 8:58; Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
This would make Jesus God wouldn't it?
John 8:56 is a good one too...it says Abraham saw His day, how does a dead Abraham see Jesus' day?

 

[Mikecpking]

Hi JDS,
The passage in Luke 16 is a parable. The reason is Jesus was speaking to the pharisees who believed in the the immortality of the soul. This was never a Hebrew belief as this idea came from speculation with the philosophers from the Greek and Babylonian invasions and the exile. The pharisees believed in something quite different to the Saduccees. Jesus was using their own belief system to bring a point about injustice. Nowehere will you find 'Abbraham's bosonm mentioned anywhere in the standard bible. You will however get get an idea if you have read the Apochrypha how these concepts came to pollute Jewish thinking at this time.

 

[Gary51]

First, is a parable based upon reality or fantasy?

A parable is not based on reality, it's point is to convey a message. Or do you think a mustard seed is really like heaven?

Every parable Jesus gave was told in realistic settings and events.

No they are not, they are wildly exaggerated stories to convey a message. A plank in the eye sounds wildly exaggerated to me. Or do you think that was real also?

Even if it was a parable (which is a big "if"),

Which it most absolutely is, and most regonised that fact.

then you're going to have to explain why Jesus would condone using Jewish fables/ myths, read Titus 1:14, "Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth."

Again, Jesus used a wildly exaggerated story to convey a message about justice on the day of judgement.

Secondly, give me an example of Jesus giving a parable w/ specific names.

How will that change to story telling of this parable.

Either there really was a man named Lazarus or Jesus lied and broke the 8th commandment.

Was Jesus lying about the mustard seed being like heaven? Remember the plank... was he lying? Also you might like to know that the name Lazarus was common in those days... therefore many men were named Lazarus.

And who's interpretation is this? Did Jesus specifically state this?

Obviously not yours.

Did Paul specifically state this? No on both accounts. Galatians is not and was not written to explain Luke 16. Paul was correcting the galatian believers trying to put Christians back under the law. It would do you good to read the WHOLE chapter.

Getting personal now. Why? Did I upset you in some way?

Heaven is not a reward...rewards are earned. You can't earn your way to heaven.

Agreed

let me ask again...where is the heart of the earth?

The earth does not have a heart.

Where is Jesus now?

Your point?

 

[Gary51]

Read the verse...it's very plain...
And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
It's a succession of events; he died and was carried. Don't try to place a gap where there is none.

See post #108

 

[Gary51]

I'm glad your article mentions this passage...read John 8:58; Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am.
This would make Jesus God wouldn't it?
John 8:56 is a good one too...it says Abraham saw His day, how does a dead Abraham see Jesus' day?

I fail to see what this has to do with the parable.

 

[Gary51]

Luke 16:19-31 is no parable.

Funny, in the the back of my Bible is a list of parables, and guess what.... the rich man and Lazarus is among the list.

 

[Colabomb]

Funny, in the the back of my Bible is a list of parables, and guess what.... the rich man and Lazarus is among the list.

While I agree that the Rich man and Lazarus is a Parable, just because the printers of your bible think it is, doesn't make it necessarily so.

 

[Gary51]

While I agree that the Rich man and Lazarus is a Parable, just because the printers of your bible think it is, doesn't make it necessarily so.

You agree... so do the printers of the Bible... So what's your point?

 

[Zecryphon]

You agree... so do the printers of the Bible... So what's your point?

I think his point is, that the people who printed your Bible are not the best judges of whether or not that story is a parable.

 

[Gary51]

I think his point is, that the people who printed your Bible are not the best judges of whether or not that story is a parable.

I doubt that the printers cared not one way or the other.

However, the people that put the list together were quite good judges I would imagine.

 

[Zecryphon]

I doubt that the printers cared not one way or the other.

However, the people that put the list together were quite good judges I would imagine.

I don't believe you when you say that you doubt the printers cared not one way or the other. If you really believed that, you wouldn't cite them as a source to defend this parable actually being a parable. These people who put the list of parables together, were they the printers of your Bible or Biblical scholars?

 

[Gary51]

I don't believe you when you say that you doubt the printers cared not one way or the other. If you really believed that, you wouldn't cite them as a source to defend this parable actually being a parable. These people who put the list of parables together, were they the printers of your Bible or Biblical scholars?

Does one have to be a Bible scholar to have an opinion on what is a parable, and to agree on said subject?

Also the people that put the list together, may have been Bible Scholars.

 

[Zecryphon]

Does one have to be a Bible scholar to have an opinion on what is a parable, and to agree on said subject?

Also the people that put the list together, may have been Bible Scholars.

Not necessarily but you threw out the printers of your Bible as being an authority on what is and is not a parable. When what most likely happened is they printed a list of parables that are considered to be parables by Biblical scholars.

 

[Zecryphon]

Does one have to be a Bible scholar to have an opinion on what is a parable, and to agree on said subject?

Also the people that put the list together, may have been Bible Scholars.

Not necessarily but you threw out the printers of your Bible as being an authority on what is and is not a parable. When what most likely happened is they printed a list of parables that are considered to be parables by Biblical scholars.