You Are Not Going To Heaven

[Gary51]

No Gary, but I can tell you this, I don't play games with the intellectually dishonest as you have been.

I don't know what you mean, somewhere there is a missunderstanding. Lets try again.

Did you read post #77?

It is my answer to your question.

 

[Zecryphon]

Personally I like to try and debate one verse at a time. But then I find that debators tend to bring in more verses to back up the original debated verse... then it ends up in text overkill. Then the plot can be lost, and confusion creeps in, which can lead to tension. Then it seems that the only thing learnt, was no one gets along.

I can't say why other people do what they do, but personally I provide other verses that support the verse I originally cited. I do this to show that I'm not basing my opinion or theology upon one verse. Also, I usually try and post the surrouding verses, so that people can read the verse I'm talking about in context. When you start off a reply with a personal insult, it's guaranteed that a calm debate will not be the result of such an action. It's also clear that calm debate is not what that person wants. I won't debate with such people, as they're just here to teach what they think is right and not consider what anybody else has to say.

 

[Celticflower]

this thread is getting too deep and too nasty for me.

Merry Christmas guys.

 

[Gary51]

this thread is getting too deep and too nasty for me.

Merry Christmas guys.

Can I help you?

 

[Celticflower]

Can I help you?

No help needed -- I can find my way to the door on my own. You guys just keep slinging sand at each other in your sandbox.

 

[Gary51]

No help needed -- I can find my way to the door on my own. You guys just keep slinging sand at each other in your sandbox.

Well, maybe you can help us.

 

[Zecryphon]

No help needed -- I can find my way to the door on my own. You guys just keep slinging sand at each other in your sandbox.

You guys? So far there is only one sand slinger in here. So the accusation you've levelled at all the participants in this thread is not accurate.

 

[Colabomb]

Where in the Bible does it ever say anything about us going to heaven? There is no scripture, in the Bible that says: I, you, we or anyone has gone or is going to heaven!

Jesus said no one has gone to heaven. Jo. 3:13 “ No man has ascended to heaven but”
Himself.

In Mat.5:5 we are told that the meek will inherit the earth. Does that that mean the meek are going to get a different reward than some others? I don’t think that can be shown from scripture.

When Christ returns He will “land,” if you will, on the Mount of Olives according to Zech.14:4 “And in that day His feet will stand on the Mount of Olives, Which faces Jerusalem on the east. And the Mount of Olives shall be split in two, From east to west Making a very large valley; Half of the mountain shall move toward the north And half of it toward the south.”

In Rev. 22:12 Jesus says that when He comes that He will bring His reward with Him. “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work.

Now in Jo. 14:2-3 Jesus said that He was going to prepare a place or office for us, but He is going to bring it with Him when He returns. He does not say anything about us going to heaven to receive it.

Just because we are to receive heavenly gifts or a heavenly reward does not mean that we have to go to heaven to receive it.

Paul wrote in 1Cor. 2:9 But as it is written: “ Eye has not seen, nor ear heard,
Nor have entered into the heart of man The things which God has prepared for those who love Him.” Although we can not know everything about our future reward, God has seen fit to reveal the basics.

Jesus was born to be King Isa. 9:6-7 For unto us a Child is born, Unto us a Son is given; And the government will be upon His shoulder. And His name will be called
Wonderful, Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
7 Of the increase of His government and peace There will be no end,
Upon the throne of David and over His kingdom, To order it and establish it with judgment and justice From that time forward, even forever. The zeal of the Lord of hosts will perform this.
Isa. 11:9 They shall not hurt nor destroy in all My holy mountain, (i.e. Kingdom) For (or because)the EARTH shall be full of the knowledge of the LORD As the waters cover the sea.

The government shall His responsibility; That government will have no end; Christ will sit on the throne of David,(a throne here on earth.) No harm will come in that Kingdom, because the knowledge of God will completely cover the earth. This Kingdom is obviously on earth. Enough said?

When Christ returns, He returns to set up His Kingdom. Note; Rev. 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!” Rev. 20:3-7 and he cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal on him, so that he should deceive the nations no more till the thousand years were finished. But after these things he must be released for a little while.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was committed to them. Then I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for their witness to Jesus and for the word of God, who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received his mark on their foreheads or on their hands. And they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Daniel speaks of this time as a time when Christ will come and put an end to man’s misrule and set up a Kingdom that will rein forever. Dan. 7:27Then the kingdom and dominion, And the greatness of the kingdoms under the whole heaven, Shall be given to the people, the saints of the Most High. His kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, And all dominions shall serve and obey Him.’
Rulership will “be given to the saints of the Most High,” and they shall “live and reign with Christ for a thousand years.”

The Lord will reign from Jerusalem Isa. 24:23 Then the moon will be disgraced And the sun ashamed; For the LORD of hosts will reign On Mount Zion and in Jerusalem And before His elders, gloriously. Also in Isa. 8:18 Here am I and the children whom the LORD has given me! We are for signs and wonders in Israel From the LORD of hosts,
Who dwells in Mount Zion. (i.e. Jerusalem)

In prophecies about the Kingdom Isaiah says the word and the law will go out from Jerusalem. Isa. 2:2-3 Now it shall come to pass in the latter days That the mountain (i.e. Kingdom)of the LORD’s house Shall be established on the top of the mountains,(i.e. kingdoms of this world) And shall be exalted above the hills;(i.e. smaller kingdoms) And all nations shall flow to it. 3 Many people shall come and say, “ Come, and let us go up to the mountain(Kingdom) of the LORD, To the house of the God of Jacob; He will teach us His ways, And we shall walk in His paths.” For out of Zion shall go forth the law, And the word of the LORD from Jerusalem.

This Kingdom will go on to restore this earth. Isa. 51:3For the LORD will comfort Zion,
He will comfort all her waste places; He will make her wilderness like Eden, And her desert like the garden of the LORD; Joy and gladness will be found in it,
Thanksgiving and the voice of melody. Note also; Isa. 35:1The wilderness and the wasteland shall be glad for them, And the desert shall rejoice and blossom as the rose;
There are dozens of scriptures about the time when Christ will come and set up His Kingdom on this earth.

At that time the people will, once again, begin to obey God and keep his Feasts and learn what they are really about. Note; Zech. 14:16-19 And it shall come to pass that everyone who is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 17 And it shall be that whichever of the families of the earth do not come up to Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, on them there will be no rain. 18 If the family of Egypt will not come up and enter in, they shall have no rain; they shall receive the plague with which the LORD strikes the nations who do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles. 19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt and the punishment of all the nations that do not come up to keep the Feast of Tabernacles.

In Titus 3:7 and many, many other places we learn that part of our reward is eternal life. “that having been justified by His grace we should become heirs according to the hope of eternal life.”

We will be heirs, or part owners in the Kingdom of God. Ja. 2:5 Listen, my beloved brethren: Has God not chosen the poor of this world to be rich in faith and heirs of the kingdom which He promised to those who love Him? What does an heir do? An heir inherits things. Once one inherits something they own it.

Heb. 2:10-11 says; “For it was fitting for Him, for whom are all things and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons to glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. 11 For both He who sanctifies and those who are being sanctified are all of one, for which reason He is not ashamed to call them brethren,

Read that again. Sons, brothers? WOW! Now in Eph. 4:11-13 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ,

• 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith
• and of the knowledge of the Son of God,
• to a perfect man,
• to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ

1Jo. 3:2 Says that we will be like Jesus. “Beloved, now we are children of God; and it has not yet been revealed what we shall be, but we know that when He is revealed, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him as He is. Remember that Jesus is the first born of many brethren. Ro. 8:29

Receiving Eternal life, becoming brothers of Christ, being joint heirs to the Kingdom and receiving authority to rule with Jesus, in His Kingdom at His return? These are not small rewards. Are there more that we don’t know about? I have no doubt, but at this time this is more than I can wrap my head around. I will be more than happy to serve Christ, in His Kingdom, here on this earth for 1,000 years or however long He says.

If you want your message to be read, avoid using a million colors. Its the internet equivalent of sending a letter made of magazine cut out letters.

It turns most people off and they dont' bother to give your argument a fair shake cause you look like a crazy....

 

[CaDan]

Whoah . . .

It's a Beatific Vision debate! I'm feelin' all 13th Century!

 

[CaDan]

Let's ratchet back the personal comments just a bit. Argue the issues, not the person.

 

[TraderJack]

The spirit is not conscious, it is the breath of life from God

That is merely a personal opinion unvalidated.

 

[TraderJack]

The spirit is not conscious, it is the breath of life from God

Your invalid subjective personal opinion above is shown to be absolutely false by the blessed St. Paul.

1 Corinthians 2:11
For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.

 

[Gary51]

Your invalid subjective personal opinion above is shown to be absolutely false by the blessed St. Paul.

1 Corinthians 2:11
For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.

“And the lord God formed man out of the dust of the ground
And breathed into his nostrils the breath of life
And man became a living soul”
Genesis 2:7
God formed man’s body from dust and blew into him a soul
And death is reverse of that process of that
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was
And the spirit shall return to God who gave it
Ecc. 12:7
What is the spirit mentioned in these texts?
The spirit of god is in my nostrils
Job 27:3
The word spirit in these texts has a margina lreference
Which reads “or breath”
The actual root word is “pneuma”
A word which means breath or air
“And the lord God formed man out of the dust of the ground
And breathed into his nostrils the breath of life
And man became a living soul”
Genesis 2:7
The soul is the combination of these 2 factors
Body (dust)
+
Spirit (breath)

=
A living soul

When one is missing, the soul is dead
Can the soul really die?
“the soul that sinneth, it shall die”Ezekiel 18:20
What happens when a soul dies?
Does the soul go to heaven?
Or Hell?
Answer:It ceases to exist and the breath of life,
Which made up part of the soul,
Returns to God
“all that are in the graves
shall hear his voice
and shall come forth”John5:28-29
What did Christ say about the dead
“Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep
But I go that I may awake him out of sleep
The disciples therefore said unto Him,
Lord, if is fallen asleep ,he will recover
Now Jesus had spoken of his death
But they thought he had spake of
Taking rest in sleep
Then Jesus therefore said unto them plainly
Lazarus is dead”John 11:11-14
“We that are alive that are left unto the coming of the Lord
Shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep
…for the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,
With the voice of the archangel
And with the trump of God
And the dead in Christ shall rise first
1 Thess 4:15-16
Meaning all the dead are asleep till the second coming

What about the thief on the cross?
And he said unto Jesus,
Lord, remember me when thou comest into they kingdom
And Jesus said unto him
Verily I say unto thee
Today shalt thou be with me in paradise”
Luke 23:43.

Common Misunderstanding:
Jesus told the thief on the cross
They would both be in heaven on the same day

Cause of misunderstanding:
Placement of comma

True Explanation:
Placement of comma after "today"

CONFIRMATION

“Jesus saieth unto her…”touch me not
For I am not yet ascended to my father
But go to my brethren
And say unto them
I ascend unto my father
And your father
And to my God and your GodJohn 20:17
Two days after Christ’s death
He told Mary he had not yet ascended
To His father in heaven.
This means Christ could not have been in Paradise
The day of His death and the thief on the cross
Is sleeping now, just like all the dead.

But isn’t it truth that all God’s children go to heaven?
Answer:
Yes, but not before the second coming
“Men and brethren let me freely speak to you
Of the patriarch David that he is both dead and buried
And his sepulchre is with us unto this day
Acts2:29
“For David is not ascended into heaven”Acts2:34
So all the dead are still asleep in their graves
And are unaware of what is going on around them.
“so man lieth down and riseth not
till the heavens be no more
they shall not awake or be raised out of their sleep….
….his sons come to honour and he knoweth it not
and they are brought low but he perceiveth it not of them
Job 12:12,21
“so man lieth down and riseth not
till the heavens be no more
Job 14:12
The day of the Lord shall come
in the which the heavens and earth shall pass away2 Peter 3:10
The heavens are still here
And so is the dead.

Christ tells us
“Behold I come quickly
And my reward is with me
To give every man according as his work shall be
Rev 22:12
The Lord himself shall descend from heaven
With a shout…and the dead in Christ shall rise…
And so shall we ever be with the Lord
1 Thess 4:16-17
“we shall all be changed in a moment
in the twinkling of an eye
And the dead shall be raised incorruptible
For this corruptible must put on incorruptible
And this mortal must put on immortality
1 cor 15:51-53

 

[TraderJack]

“And the lord God formed man out of the dust of the ground
And breathed into his nostrils the breath of life
And man became a living soul”
Genesis 2:7
God formed man’s body from dust and blew into him a soul
And death is reverse of that process of that
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was
And the spirit shall return to God who gave it
Ecc. 12:7
What is the spirit mentioned in these texts?
The spirit of god is in my nostrils
Job 27:3
The word spirit in these texts has a margina lreference
Which reads “or breath”
The actual root word is “pneuma”
A word which means breath or air
“And the lord God formed man out of the dust of the ground
And breathed into his nostrils the breath of life
And man became a living soul”
Genesis 2:7
The soul is the combination of these 2 factors
Body (dust)
+
Spirit (breath)

=
A living soul

When one is missing, the soul is dead
Can the soul really die?
“the soul that sinneth, it shall die”Ezekiel 18:20
What happens when a soul dies?
Does the soul go to heaven?
Or Hell?
Answer:It ceases to exist and the breath of life,
Which made up part of the soul,
Returns to God
“all that are in the graves
shall hear his voice
and shall come forth”John5:28-29
What did Christ say about the dead
“Our friend Lazarus has fallen asleep
But I go that I may awake him out of sleep
The disciples therefore said unto Him,
Lord, if is fallen asleep ,he will recover
Now Jesus had spoken of his death
But they thought he had spake of
Taking rest in sleep
Then Jesus therefore said unto them plainly
Lazarus is dead”John 11:11-14
“We that are alive that are left unto the coming of the Lord
Shall in no wise precede them that are fallen asleep
…for the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout,
With the voice of the archangel
And with the trump of God
And the dead in Christ shall rise first
1 Thess 4:15-16
Meaning all the dead are asleep till the second coming

What about the thief on the cross?
And he said unto Jesus,
Lord, remember me when thou comest into they kingdom
And Jesus said unto him
Verily I say unto thee
Today shalt thou be with me in paradise”
Luke 23:43.

Common Misunderstanding:
Jesus told the thief on the cross
They would both be in heaven on the same day

Cause of misunderstanding:
Placement of comma

True Explanation:
Placement of comma after "today"

CONFIRMATION

“Jesus saieth unto her…”touch me not
For I am not yet ascended to my father
But go to my brethren
And say unto them
I ascend unto my father
And your father
And to my God and your GodJohn 20:17
Two days after Christ’s death
He told Mary he had not yet ascended
To His father in heaven.
This means Christ could not have been in Paradise
The day of His death and the thief on the cross
Is sleeping now, just like all the dead.

But isn’t it truth that all God’s children go to heaven?
Answer:
Yes, but not before the second coming
“Men and brethren let me freely speak to you
Of the patriarch David that he is both dead and buried
And his sepulchre is with us unto this day
Acts2:29
“For David is not ascended into heaven”Acts2:34
So all the dead are still asleep in their graves
And are unaware of what is going on around them.
“so man lieth down and riseth not
till the heavens be no more
they shall not awake or be raised out of their sleep….
….his sons come to honour and he knoweth it not
and they are brought low but he perceiveth it not of them
Job 12:12,21
“so man lieth down and riseth not
till the heavens be no more
Job 14:12
The day of the Lord shall come
in the which the heavens and earth shall pass away2 Peter 3:10
The heavens are still here
And so is the dead.

Christ tells us
“Behold I come quickly
And my reward is with me
To give every man according as his work shall be
Rev 22:12
The Lord himself shall descend from heaven
With a shout…and the dead in Christ shall rise…
And so shall we ever be with the Lord
1 Thess 4:16-17
“we shall all be changed in a moment
in the twinkling of an eye
And the dead shall be raised incorruptible
For this corruptible must put on incorruptible
And this mortal must put on immortality
1 cor 15:51-53

So?

What does that have to do with your false assertion that the spirit has no consciousness, when the blessed St. Paul says that no one knows a man but the spirit of the man?

The blessed St. Paul repudiates your false assertion by explicitly saying the spirit of the man knows the man.

"knows" denotes consciousness.

 

[Gary51]

So?

What does that have to do with your false assertion that the spirit has no consciousness, when the blessed St. Paul says that no one knows a man but the spirit of the man?

The blessed St. Paul repudiates your false assertion by explicitly saying the spirit of the man knows the man.

"knows" denotes consciousness.

Oh... your a fast reader.... but are you fast on the uptake!!!

 

[Mikecpking]

The spirit is not conscious, it is the breath of life from God

“And the lord God formed man out of the dust of the ground
And breathed into his nostrils the breath of life
And man became a living soul”
Genesis 2:7
God formed man’s body from dust and blew into him a soul

Sorry, but man did not 'get' a soul, he became one. A soul is not a 'part of someone' its either the whole person or more it can mean 'life' bound up in the body in the other contetx you are using. 'Soul' does not survive death of the living person or animal nor is it 'blown in'.

And death is reverse of that process of that
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was
And the spirit shall return to God who gave it
Ecc. 12:7

 

[ThomasDa]

Good work in your earlier post !!

Let me add something about the spirits Paul is talking about in 1Cor. 2:11.

A.) “For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him?”

B.) “Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God.”

A.)God has given us an ability to reason in a way animals can’t. God has added something to our brains that animals don’t have. That “spirit in man”; (for lack of a better term,) allows us the ability to know the things that men can know. Math, language, art, ect.
It is power God gives man. It is not something that thinks or knows, it gives us the ability to think and know. This power or "spirit in man" returns to God when we die and can't use it any more.

B.) In the same way, man can not know the things of God, without the Spirit of God.

 

[Gary51]

[/SIZE][/FONT]

Sorry, but man did not 'get' a soul, he became one. A soul is not a 'part of someone' its either the whole person or more it can mean 'life' bound up in the body in the other contetx you are using. 'Soul' does not survive death of the living person or animal nor is it 'blown in'.

Yeah... ok...lol

 

[jds1977]

He told Mary he had not yet ascended
To His father in heaven.
This means Christ could not have been in Paradise
The day of His death and the thief on the cross
Is sleeping now, just like all the dead.

Paradise "was" in the heart of the earth, not in heaven. Mat 12:40..."For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth."
Read the account of Lazarus and the rich man in Luke 16...Paradise was beside Hades.

 

[ThomasDa]

Paridise is in the grave??? Good luck with that line...LOL