You Are Not Going To Heaven

[TraderJack]

Ezekiel 18:4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son—both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.

So what does this mean then?

I see, you totally disregard the passage I cited.

 

[tulc]

Do you call them "Christian" too?

...the question wasn't do "I" consider them Christian, the question was do they consider themselves Christians?
tulc(just thought that should be pointed out)

 

[TraderJack]

...the question wasn't do "I" consider them Christian, the question was do they consider themselves Christians?

There is no difference. Arius and his followers considered themselves to be Christian too, as did the Nestorians, Gnostics, Montanists, Marcionites, Docetists, Manicheans and their modern counterparts today.

Heck, even Adolf Hitler claimed to be Christian, Roman Catholic even, but was he?

Clearly not.

It doesn't matter if they claim to be Christian like those other heretical cults.

What matters is ARE they truly Christian as defined by the Scriptures.

So far, he fails the standard.

tulc(just thought that should be pointed out)

Which is a non sequitur.

Just thought that needed to be pointed out.

 

[TraderJack]

So you are saying He didn't mean what He said?

He is saying you misunderstand the passage, by reading your own notion into it as opposed to what it is actually saying in context.

 

[tulc]

Which is a non sequitur.

Just thought that needed to be pointed out.

Hey I specialize in non sequiturs!
tulc(well...that and coffee)

 

[TraderJack]

Re: Traderjack post #48

Awaiting your answer.

After you respond to #32 instead of totally ignoring it.


The body goes to the grave.

The spirit enters into the Presence of the Lord.


2 Corinthians 5


Quote:
1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.


Employing the Ostrich Principle only insures being in the dark.

 

[TraderJack]

Hey I specialize in non sequiturs!
tulc(well...that and coffee)

I'll keep that in mind.

A cup of Kona, extra dark would be nice.

 

[Zecryphon]

Sooo there was someone accusing him of not being who he said he was and two people saying he sounded like he wasn't what he said he was?
I'm going to have to agree with Gary51, ThomasDa arguments should be answered with counter arguments and people should stop with the Ad Hominem.
tulc(IMHO)

"Sooo there was someone accusing him of not being who he said he was and two people saying he sounded like he wasn't what he said he was? "

I can't believe you wanna debate this. Echelon posted his comment saying the accusation had been levelled. Who levelled it? Not Echelon, he was saying someone had levelled the accusation prior. As I've shown, neither one of the two posters prior said he actually was a Mormon or a JW, only that he sounded like one. Is this really important enough to debate?

"I'm going to have to agree with Gary51, ThomasDa arguments should be answered with counter arguments and people should stop with the Ad Hominem.
tulc(IMHO)"

There actually is no ad hominem, as it's not an insult to be called a JW or a Mormon. I have answered, and as of yet (as far as I've read into the thread) there has been no reply from Thomas as of yet or anything from Gary51, except a question for me to interpret a verse, which I have done and have also posted relevant commentary from Matthew Henry. There's counter-argument going on here, it just seems to be ignored.

 

[Zecryphon]

So you are saying He didn't mean what He said? You're saying He meant what you think?

I see it as a direct statement.

Where did I say that? Why don't you discuss what I posted instead of firing back with a question and a conclusion already drawn? Why didn't you post the surrounding verses so people in this thread could understand the context of the conversation in John chapter 3?

 

[Zecryphon]

Isa 66:1 Thus says the LORD: "Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool; what is the house that you would build for me, and what is the place of my rest?

"1. There is not a single word about us going to heaven in this verse."

Take it in conjunction with other verses. I'm not hanging an entire theology on one verse. That's a very dangerous thing to do. I'm not saying you are either, just saying.

Joh 14:1"Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me.Joh 14:2In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?Joh 14:3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take

"2. Here Jesus talks about going to prepare a place or office for us. Then He speaks of coming again SO that we can be with Him. Rev. 22:12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work"

Okay but why would we need a place or an office if we are going to remain on Earth with Jesus and never enter Heaven? It doesn't make sense. So perhaps we need to look at it another way.

Why would Jesus go to Heaven to prepare a place for us, if we are to never go there?
See #2

Post # 2? That was posted by Solidlyhere, not you. Why would I read his post to find answers to questions I asked you?

Mat 5:1 Seeing the crowds, he went up on the mountain, and when he sat down, his disciples came to him. Mat 5:2 And he opened his mouth and taught them, saying: Mat 5:3"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

3. Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

This doesn't disprove that we are going to Heaven. You have alot of scripture pointing to us going to Heaven when we die and you ignore it and post the scriptures that you think say what you want them to say. Why do you think there is going to be this great divide between Heaven and Earth during the millenial reign of Christ on earth? Is it not possible that we will be able to go from Heaven to earth like the angels did in Jacob's dream?

4. Jesus is coming to earth to set up the Kingdom and He is bringing His reward with Him!
See #2 and #3.

So what? We are earthbound forever? Is Jesus going to be bound on earth too for 1000 years? Why is it so impossible to believe that we may be able to travel from Heaven to earth during this time? Maybe, we'll live in Heaven in the place Jesus has prepared for us, as He said He'd be doing until His return, and then we'll work with Him on earth during the millenial reign. We'll have a different kind of commute to work than we do now, that's all.

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 1Pe 1:4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 1Pe 1:5 who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

5. Yes our inheritance is in heaven right now, BUT Jesus is going to bring it with Him when He returns. (His words, not mine) See #2 again!

I suggest you see post # 2 again, as YOU DIDN'T WRITE POST # 2.

"Why would we have an inheritance in Heaven, if we are not going there?
See answer #2"

Why don't you just sum it up here, I'm not jumping all over the thread to look up what you've said. If you don't know your theology well enough to be able to discuss it, why should anyone bother talking to you?

Act 7:55 But he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. Act 7:56 And he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." Act 7:57 But they cried out with a loud voice and stopped their ears and rushed together at him. Act 7:58 Then they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their garments at the feet of a young man named Saul. Act 7:59 And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." Act 7:60 And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Why would Stephen cry out to Jesus to receive his spirit, if he were not going to Heaven?

"God was giving Stephen some encouragement at this most difficult time. God receiving his spirit is the same as sealing his future place in God’s Kingdom. Notice it does not say Stephen went to heaven."

Think about it. Where does the scripture say God is? In Heaven. Stephen cried out to God to receive his spirit. So when Stephen died, where do you think he went? Could it be to Heaven?

"If Stephen went to heaven he would have been the first."

Really? So Enoch and Elijah, where did they go?

"Jesus said in Jo. 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven."

Jesus is saying no one can enter Heaven who has not been born again. Read John chapter 3, the whole thing and follow the conversation. What is Jesus talking with Nicodemus about? Salvation and the need to be born again.

"All this and more was in my other posts."

Here's a tip. If you really want people to read what you write, make your posts shorter. Nobody is going to read a really long post especially if they disagree with what you're saying early on.

 

[tulc]

There actually is no ad hominem, as it's not an insult to be called a JW or a Mormon.

Actually an ad hominem isn't in itself an insult it means the rebutting argument is against the man rather then against his arguments, see the difference?
tulc(just one of those non sequiturs of mine!)

 

[tulc]

A cup of Kona, extra dark would be nice.

Here you go!

tulc(I can scrounge up some cookies if you like, WWMC usually has some put out)

 

[TraderJack]

Actually an ad hominem isn't in itself an insult it means the rebutting argument is against the man rather then against his arguments, see the difference?
tulc(just one of those non sequiturs of mine!)

Actually, his arguments have been refuted, and note made that his arguments sound like Mormon and JW arguments, which they do. That is not ad hominem at all. His arguments have been addressed and refuted.

 

[ThomasDa]

Finally...we are getting some where. The reference to answer #2 you read as a reference to Post #2.

You obviously can't read and you are not willing to study what I have posted.
I know My posts are too loooong. If you don't read them and study them. No wonder you questions and commits don't make any sense.....Good luck with your studies.
x Marks the spot.

Isa 66:1 Thus says the LORD: "Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool; what is the house that you would build for me, and what is the place of my rest?
x1. There is not a single word about us going to heaven in this verse.

Joh 14:1 "Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take
x2. Here Jesus talks about going to prepare a place or office for us. Then He speaks of coming again SO that we can be with Him. Rev. 22:12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work

Why would Jesus go to Heaven to prepare a place for us, if we are to never go there?
See #2

Mat 5:1 Seeing the crowds, he went up on the mountain, and when he sat down, his disciples came to him. Mat 5:2 And he opened his mouth and taught them, saying: Mat 5:3"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
x3. Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

Is it only the poor in spirit that get to go to Heaven? It seems scripture allows for one more group of people to go to Heaven than you do.
x4. Jesus is coming to earth to set up the Kingdom and He is bringing His reward with Him!
See #2 and #3.


1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 1Pe 1:4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 1Pe 1:5 who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
x5. Yes our inheritance is in heaven right now, BUT Jesus is going to bring it with Him when He returns. (His words, not mine) See #2 again!

Why would we have an inheritance in Heaven, if we are not going there?
See answer #2

Act 7:55 But he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. Act 7:56 And he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." Act 7:57 But they cried out with a loud voice and stopped their ears and rushed together at him. Act 7:58 Then they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their garments at the feet of a young man named Saul. Act 7:59 And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." Act 7:60 And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Why would Stephen cry out to Jesus to receive his spirit, if he were not going to Heaven?
God was giving Stephen some encouragement at this most difficult time. God receiving his spirit is the same as sealing his future place in God’s Kingdom. Notice it does say Stephen went to heaven. If Stephen went to heaven he would have been the first. Jesus said in Jo. 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

All this and more was in my other posts.

 

[Gary51]

I see, you totally disregard the passage I cited.

Not really... but you seem to want to disregard this one.

 

[Gary51]

He is saying you misunderstand the passage, by reading your own notion into it as opposed to what it is actually saying in context.

No you just think I misunderstand it....

 

[Gary51]

After you respond to #32 instead of totally ignoring it.


The body goes to the grave.

The spirit enters into the Presence of the Lord.


2 Corinthians 5


Quote:
1 For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. 2 For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed with our habitation which is from heaven, 3 if indeed, having been clothed, we shall not be found naked. 4 For we who are in this tent groan, being burdened, not because we want to be unclothed, but further clothed, that mortality may be swallowed up by life. 5 Now He who has prepared us for this very thing is God, who also has given us the Spirit as a guarantee.
6 So we are always confident, knowing that while we are at home in the body we are absent from the Lord. 7 For we walk by faith, not by sight. 8 We are confident, yes, well pleased rather to be absent from the body and to be present with the Lord.


Employing the Ostrich Principle only insures being in the dark.

The spirit is not conscious, it is the breath of life from God

“And the lord God formed man out of the dust of the ground
And breathed into his nostrils the breath of life
And man became a living soul”
Genesis 2:7
God formed man’s body from dust and blew into him a soul
And death is reverse of that process of that
Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was
And the spirit shall return to God who gave it
Ecc. 12:7

 

[Zecryphon]

"Finally...we are getting some where. The reference to answer #2 you read as a reference to Post #2."


As that's what you said and did not specify any other # 2, there's no reason to read it any other way.

"You obviously can't read and you are not willing to study what I have posted."

Ah, the personal insult. The automatic response of the person who is not willing to have what they say criticized or analyzed in any way. However, I am not here to trade insults with you, ya know that whole "turn the other cheek" teaching. So your sad little attempt to, I don't know what your intent was, to hurt me? It failed.

I know My posts are too loooong. If you don't read them and study them. No wonder you questions and commits don't make any sense.....Good luck with your studies.

My questions and commits? Don't you mean comments? What's a commit? My studies have gone fine and are apparently of such a high caliber you can't address them intellectually or engage in honest and fair debate about them without needing to insult me.

"x Marks the spot."

Sure, if you're looking for buried treasure. However, we're here to see if what you say and the evidence you offer in support is valid. So far it is not.


Isa 66:1 Thus says the LORD: "Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool; what is the house that you would build for me, and what is the place of my rest?

"x1. There is not a single word about us going to heaven in this verse."

That's why I said it must be understood with other verses in the Bible. Remember what I said about hanging your theology on one verse?

Joh 14:1"Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me.Joh 14:2In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?Joh 14:3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take

"x2. Here Jesus talks about going to prepare a place or office for us. Then He speaks of coming again SO that we can be with Him. Rev. 22:12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work

Why would Jesus go to Heaven to prepare a place for us, if we are to never go there?

See #2

Mat 5:1 Seeing the crowds, he went up on the mountain, and when he sat down, his disciples came to him. Mat 5:2 And he opened his mouth and taught them, saying: Mat 5:3"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

x3. Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

Is it only the poor in spirit that get to go to Heaven? It seems scripture allows for one more group of people to go to Heaven than you do.

x4. Jesus is coming to earth to set up the Kingdom and He is bringing His reward with Him!
See #2 and #3.

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 1Pe 1:4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 1Pe 1:5 who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

x5. Yesourinheritance is in heaven right now, BUT Jesus is going to bring it with Him when He returns. (His words, not mine) See #2 again!

Why would we have an inheritance in Heaven, if we are not going there?
See answer #2

Act 7:55 But he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. Act 7:56 And he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." Act 7:57 But they cried out with a loud voice and stopped their ears and rushed together at him. Act 7:58 Then they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their garments at the feet of a young man named Saul. Act 7:59 And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." Act 7:60 And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Why would Stephen cry out to Jesus to receive his spirit, if he were not going to Heaven?

God was giving Stephen some encouragement at this most difficult time. God receiving his spirit is the same as sealing his future place in God’s Kingdom. Notice it does say Stephen went to heaven. If Stephen went to heaven he would have been the first. Jesus said in Jo. 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

All this and more was in my other posts."

So you have nothing new to offer under the sun except personal insults. You have not proven yourself to be superior to me in either intellect or understanding of the scriptures. Perhaps when you can engage in true debate in a respectful fashion, you will find more people willing to talk with you and willing to learn from you. So far there's nothing here that reflects sound teaching or an understanding of the scriptures in context.

 

[Gary51]

"Finally...we are getting some where. The reference to answer #2 you read as a reference to Post #2."


As that's what you said and did not specify any other # 2, there's no reason to read it any other way.




Ah, the personal insult. The automatic response of the person who is not willing to have what they say criticized or analyzed in any way. However, I am not here to trade insults with you, ya know that whole "turn the other cheek" teaching. So your sad little attempt to, I don't know what your intent was, to hurt me? It failed.




My questions and commits? Don't you mean comments? What's a commit? My studies have gone fine and are apparently of such a high caliber you can't address them intellectually or engage in honest and fair debate about them without needing to insult me.




Sure, if you're looking for buried treasure. However, we're here to see if what you say and the evidence you offer in support is valid. So far it is not.


Isa 66:1 Thus says the LORD: "Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool; what is the house that you would build for me, and what is the place of my rest?




So you have nothing new to offer under the sun except personal insults. You have not proven yourself to be superior to me in either intellect or understanding of the scriptures. Perhaps when you can engage in true debate in a respectful fashion, you will find more people willing to talk with you and willing to learn from you. So far there's nothing here that reflects sound teaching or an understanding of the scriptures in context.

Personally I like to try and debate one verse at a time. But then I find that debators tend to bring in more verses to back up the original debated verse... then it ends up in text overkill. Then the plot can be lost, and confusion creeps in, which can lead to tension. Then it seems that the only thing learnt, was no one gets along.

 

[TraderJack]

Not really... but you seem to want to disregard this one.

No Gary, but I can tell you this, I don't play games with the intellectually dishonest as you have been.