You Are Not Going To Heaven

[jds1977]

Sounds like Jehovah's witness doctrine...
who is Jesus Christ and is Luke 16 literal?

 

[Zecryphon]

No I'm not a Morman or anything like that. I'm just a Bible student that believes what it says. I don't read into it my own meaning or preconcieved ideas like some do.

Just out of curiosity what do you make of the following verses that do mention Heaven?

Isa 66:1 Thus says the LORD: "Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool; what is the house that you would build for me, and what is the place of my rest?

Joh 14:1 "Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me. Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you? Joh 14:3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take you to myself, that where I am you may be also.

Why would Jesus go to Heaven to prepare a place for us, if we are to never go there?

Mat 5:1 Seeing the crowds, he went up on the mountain, and when he sat down, his disciples came to him. Mat 5:2 And he opened his mouth and taught them, saying: Mat 5:3"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

Is it only the poor in spirit that get to go to Heaven? It seems scripture allows for one more group of people to go to Heaven than you do.

1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 1Pe 1:4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 1Pe 1:5 who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

Why would we have an inheritance in Heaven, if we are not going there?

Act 7:55 But he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. Act 7:56 And he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." Act 7:57 But they cried out with a loud voice and stopped their ears and rushed together at him. Act 7:58 Then they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their garments at the feet of a young man named Saul. Act 7:59 And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." Act 7:60 And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Why would Stephen cry out to Jesus to receive his spirit, if he were not going to Heaven?

 

[tulc]

I don't think we should be accusing someone of pretending to be a Christian, it sounds like he simply has different beliefs, why not just discuss the doctrines and leave the rest alone?
tulc(just a thought)

 

[Zecryphon]

I don't think we should be accusing someone of pretending to be a Christian, it sounds like he simply has different beliefs, why not just discuss the doctrines and leave the rest alone?
tulc(just a thought)

Who's accusing him of not being a Christian? I see people recognizing the things he's saying as being in line with what Mormonism and with what the Jehovah's Witnesses typically teach. No one has said he is either of these, have they?

 

[tulc]

This guy sounds very much like a Mormon. If he is then he is fraudulently using the Christian icon and should not be posting in here.

Well ThomasDa, now that the accusation is now leveled, are you a Morman, or something similar?

Sounds like Jehovah's witness doctrine...

Who's accusing him of not being a Christian? I see people recognizing the things he's saying as being in line with what Mormonism and with what the Jehovah's Witnesses typically teach. No one has said he is either of these, have they?

I don't know, if someone wrote the above about you would you think someone was accusing you of something?
tulc(it just struck me as a little off topic)

 

[Zecryphon]

I don't know, if someone wrote the above about you would you think someone was accusing you of something?
tulc(it just struck me as a little off topic)

No, I wouldn't. TraderJack is saying that he sounds like a Mormon, which he does, but Jack is not saying that he is a Mormon. Jack does go on to speculate that IF he is a Mormon he is fraudulently using a Christian icon to post here, which would be true as Mormons worship a different Jesus than the one found in the scriptures of the Holy Bible.

Jds notes that what ThomasDa is presenting sounds like JW doctrine, which happens to be true. It does sound like JW doctrine as they believe you do not go to Heaven when you die. The only person you've quoted above who is saying that an accusation has been levelled is Echelon and I disagree that any accusation has been levelled, as the other two posters have only said he sounds like a Mormon or a JW. If anyone is levelling an accusation towards the OP it would be Echelon.

 

[Gary51]

I don't think we should be accusing someone of pretending to be a Christian, it sounds like he simply has different beliefs, why not just discuss the doctrines and leave the rest alone?
tulc(just a thought)

Well said, I agree with you.

It is looking like some are mounting a personal attack on ThomasDa. Why? did he hurt your feelings? Or don't you like to have your beliefs tested?

If you are so sure your interpretations of scripture are the truth, prove it with polite debate using scripture.

 

[Gary51]

The body goes to the grave.

Ezekiel 18:4 For every living soul belongs to me, the father as well as the son—both alike belong to me. The soul who sins is the one who will die.

So what does this mean then?

 

[Gary51]

Open forum never means that all have to answer. Follow context , if the question wasn't asked of you personally, you needn't reply
But thanks for the answer anyway

That does not mean I am not entitled to reply.

 

[tulc]

No, I wouldn't. TraderJack is saying that he sounds like a Mormon, which he does, but Jack is not saying that he is a Mormon. Jack does go on to speculate that IF he is a Mormon he is fraudulently using a Christian icon to post here, which would be true as Mormons worship a different Jesus than the one found in the scriptures of the Holy Bible.

Jds notes that what ThomasDa is presenting sounds like JW doctrine, which happens to be true. It does sound like JW doctrine as they believe you do not go to Heaven when you die. The only person you've quoted above who is saying that an accusation has been levelled is Echelon and I disagree that any accusation has been levelled, as the other two posters have only said he sounds like a Mormon or a JW. If anyone is levelling an accusation towards the OP it would be Echelon.

Sooo there was someone accusing him of not being who he said he was and two people saying he sounded like he wasn't what he said he was?
I'm going to have to agree with Gary51, ThomasDa arguments should be answered with counter arguments and people should stop with the Ad Hominem.
tulc(IMHO)

 

[ThomasDa]

If you will go back and read all my posts in this thread, you will see that you are asking things that have already been answered.
Just get your Bible out and check out the things in these posts.
I'm only reading scripture right out of the Bible. I'm not adding to or taking away from.

 

[Zecryphon]

If you will go back and read all my posts in this thread, you will see that you are asking things that have already been answered.
Just get your Bible out and check out the things in these posts.
I'm only reading scripture right out of the Bible. I'm not adding to or taking away from.

This is the question you are asking in this thread:

Where in the Bible does it ever say anything about us going to heaven?

I have given you some verses that talk about us going to Heaven and thereby answering your question. Now I want you to answer my question about those verses. How do you interpret them? Anyone can paste scripture out of the Bible and say "I'm only reading scripture right out of the Bible. I'm not adding or taking away from them," as you have said. What I want to know is how you're interpreting the scriptures I have provided to you that do talk about us going to Heaven.

Also, near the bottom of page 1 you say that a person can read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation and not find one verse about us going to Heaven. You apparently haven't read the Bible from Genesis to Revelation then as the verses that I and others have posted, do talk about us going to Heaven. Now you wanna drop the "know-it-all" attitude and deal with what has been presented to you in the spirit of true debate, or do you want to continue to ignore what has been presented for your consideration to "teach" us all as YOU see fit?

 

[Gary51]

John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

What does this mean Then?

 

[Zecryphon]

John 3:13 No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven—the Son of Man.

What does this mean Then?

That quote that you have selected comes from Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus. Jesus was telling Nicodemus about the need to be born again. This quote in my opinon, speaks about mankind's need for regeneration by the Holy Spirit, about being born again by the power of God, before a man can enter Heaven.

Here's an excerpt from Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary on the Entire Bible that speaks to this passage:

Joh 3:9-13 -

Christ's stating of the doctrine and the necessity of regeneration, it should seem, made it not clearer to Nicodemus. Thus the things of the Spirit of God are foolishness to the natural man. Many think that cannot be proved, which they cannot believe. Christ's discourse of gospel truths, Joh_3:11-13, shows the folly of those who make these things strange unto them; and it recommends us to search them out. Jesus Christ is every way able to reveal the will of God to us; for he came down from heaven, and yet is in heaven. We have here a notice of Christ's two distinct natures in one person, so that while he is the Son of man, yet he is in heaven. God is the "HE THAT IS," and heaven is the dwelling-place of his holiness. The knowledge of this must be from above, and can be received by faith alone.

 

[Gary51]

That quote that you have selected comes from Jesus' conversation with Nicodemus. Jesus was telling Nicodemus about the need to be born again. This quote in my opinon, speaks about mankind's need for regeneration by the Holy Spirit, about being born again by the power of God, before a man can enter Heaven.

Here's an excerpt from Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary on the Entire Bible that speaks to this passage:

Joh 3:9-13 -

Christ's stating of the doctrine and the necessity of regeneration, it should seem, made it not clearer to Nicodemus. Thus the things of the Spirit of God are foolishness to the natural man. Many think that cannot be proved, which they cannot believe. Christ's discourse of gospel truths, Joh_3:11-13, shows the folly of those who make these things strange unto them; and it recommends us to search them out. Jesus Christ is every way able to reveal the will of God to us; for he came down from heaven, and yet is in heaven. We have here a notice of Christ's two distinct natures in one person, so that while he is the Son of man, yet he is in heaven. God is the "HE THAT IS," and heaven is the dwelling-place of his holiness. The knowledge of this must be from above, and can be received by faith alone.

So you are saying He didn't mean what He said? You're saying He meant what you think?

I see it as a direct statement.

 

[ThomasDa]

Isa 66:1 Thus says the LORD: "Heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool; what is the house that you would build for me, and what is the place of my rest?
1. There is not a single word about us going to heaven in this verse.

Joh 14:1"Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me.Joh 14:2In my Father's house are many rooms. If it were not so, would I have told you that I go to prepare a place for you?Joh 14:3And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and will take
2. Here Jesus talks about going to prepare a place or office for us. Then He speaks of coming again SO that we can be with Him. Rev. 22:12 “And behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to give to every one according to his work

Why would Jesus go to Heaven to prepare a place for us, if we are to never go there?
See #2

Mat 5:1 Seeing the crowds, he went up on the mountain, and when he sat down, his disciples came to him. Mat 5:2 And he opened his mouth and taught them, saying: Mat 5:3"Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
3. Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, “The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!”

Is it only the poor in spirit that get to go to Heaven? It seems scripture allows for one more group of people to go to Heaven than you do.
4. Jesus is coming to earth to set up the Kingdom and He is bringing His reward with Him!
See #2 and #3.


1Pe 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ! According to his great mercy, he has caused us to be born again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, 1Pe 1:4 to an inheritance that is imperishable, undefiled, and unfading, kept in heaven for you, 1Pe 1:5 who by God's power are being guarded through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.
5. Yes our inheritance is in heaven right now, BUT Jesus is going to bring it with Him when He returns. (His words, not mine) See #2 again!

Why would we have an inheritance in Heaven, if we are not going there?
See answer #2

Act 7:55 But he, full of the Holy Spirit, gazed into heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. Act 7:56 And he said, "Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God." Act 7:57 But they cried out with a loud voice and stopped their ears and rushed together at him. Act 7:58 Then they cast him out of the city and stoned him. And the witnesses laid down their garments at the feet of a young man named Saul. Act 7:59 And as they were stoning Stephen, he called out, "Lord Jesus, receive my spirit." Act 7:60 And falling to his knees he cried out with a loud voice, "Lord, do not hold this sin against them." And when he had said this, he fell asleep.

Why would Stephen cry out to Jesus to receive his spirit, if he were not going to Heaven?
God was giving Stephen some encouragement at this most difficult time. God receiving his spirit is the same as sealing his future place in God’s Kingdom. Notice it does not say Stephen went to heaven. If Stephen went to heaven he would have been the first. Jesus said in Jo. 3:13 No one has ascended to heaven but He who came down from heaven, that is, the Son of Man who is in heaven.

All this and more was in my other posts.

 

[Gary51]

Re: Traderjack post #48

Awaiting your answer.

 

[jds1977]

Where is paradise located in Luke 16? According to Jesus, it's in the heart of the earth, Mat. 12:40, the same place as Hades, but there was a great divide separating the two, so...before Jesus ascended to heaven and "led captive a host of captives" (Eph. 4:8), the souls of the saints were in the heart of the earth. If to be absent from the body is to be present w/ the Lord, and we know that Jesus is at the right hand of the Father making intercession for us (Rom.8:34), then wouldn't that make the dead saints be w/ Jesus in heaven until His return to earth (Jude 1:14) what about the elders in heaven around the throne? what about the army that comes back w/ Christ wearing white linen Rev. 19:14 ( remember, white linen is the righteousness of the saints Rev. 19:8)?

 

[TraderJack]

No I'm not a Morman or anything like that. I'm just a Bible student that believes what it says. I don't read into it my own meaning or preconcieved ideas like some do.

No, you have yet to learn how to read in context.

So you see what you want to see.

 

[TraderJack]

I don't think we should be accusing someone of pretending to be a Christian, it sounds like he simply has different beliefs, why not just discuss the doctrines and leave the rest alone?
tulc(just a thought)

LOL, Arius had "different beliefs" too.

As did the Docetists.

As did the Gnostics.

As did Marcion.

As did Montanus.

As do all who deny the Deity of Christ.

Do you call them "Christian" too?