YES or NO: Do The 10 Commandments Still Apply To Us Today? (2)

[BrightCandle]

If you can prove that the term "commandments" in those verses quoted refers to the 'Ten Commandments' then your point is well taken.

But if you cannot prove this then you have no point.

In addition, Christ observed all Jewish customs.

You and I both know we don't have to do that.

So when John said we "ought to walk in the same way in which he (Jesus) walked" he obviously does not mean every single way, otherwise we would be observing all the Jewish festivals and customs as Jesus did.

So you need to develop you argument a little more.

If the 10 commandments were to be excluded don't you think that John would have stated that clearly? When John says "commandments", why wouldn't that included the commandments that God wrote with his own finger in stone? Instead of trying to find complex arguments to not keep the 10 commandments why don't you just give up, and ask Jesus to give you the power to keep them? Wouldn't that make more sense, and give you a clear conscience as well?

 

[Doveaman]

If the 10 commandments were to be excluded don't you think that John would have stated that clearly? When John says "commandments", why wouldn't that included the commandments that God wrote with his own finger in stone? Instead of trying to find complex arguments to not keep the 10 commandments why don't you just give up, and ask Jesus to give you the power to keep them? Wouldn't that make more sense, and give you a clear conscience as well?

I assure you, my conscience is completely clear.

Is this the best reply you can come up with?

Well it's not working.

I think your argument is a bit backward.

If the Ten Commandments were to be included, John might have made it more clear, but since it's not clear we cannot conclude it's there. Your argument has no substance.

John makes no mention of Ten Commandments. You believe he did simply because you want to believe he did. But it is clear he did not mention it.

You cannot establish a belief based on what John did not state. Beliefs are based on what is stated. Often times if something is not clearly stated it usually means it's not there or it's not important.

John makes no mention of Ten Commandments, but yet you believe he did. Sounds like blind faith to me.

I suggest you structure your arguments based on what is stated, and not based on what is not stated. You can believe as long and hard as you like, but the Ten Commandments is still not going to be there.

SDAs are afraid of complex arguments because their ideas are based on illusions and not based on reality.

This is reality:

Col 2:16-17...Do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

You would do well to stick with reality and stop chasing shadows.

 

[visionary]

This is reality, my friend:

Col 2:16-17...Do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

You would do well to stick to reality and stop chasing shadows.

That verse is in the positive.. as in

"Do not let anyone stop you from celebrating the feasts, not in your choice of food or drink, because these things are where you have the rehearsals of the things that are to come and they all will be found in Christ."

Just as the spring time feasts were fulfilled with His first advent, so also will the fall feasts be fulfilled with He second advent. You have to know the feasts to know how He is going to fulfill them.

 

[Secundulus]

That verse is in the positive.. as in

"Do not let anyone stop you from celebrating the feasts, not in your choice of food or drink, because these things are where you have the rehearsals of the things that are to come and they all will be found in Christ."

Just as the spring time feasts were fulfilled with His first advent, so also will the fall feasts be fulfilled with He second advent. You have to know the feasts to know how He is going to fulfill them.

It is more likely that Paul was here speaking against the Judiazers who at the time wanted to force everyone to obey the Jewish interpretation of the Laws. He spoke against it elsewhere such as here, 3 verses later.

Colossians 2:20-23 (NASB95)
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21 "Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!" 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? 23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.

 

[Doveaman]

That verse is in the positive.. as in

"Do not let anyone stop you from celebrating the feasts, not in your choice of food or drink, because these things are where you have the rehearsals of the things that are to come and they all will be found in Christ."

One would conclude it is in the positive because he or she wants to believe it is in the positive, but if you read the context of Paul’s argument without bias you will see he was speaking in the negative.

Col 2:4, 8, 13-14, 16-18…I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments…See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ…God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code (the law), with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross…Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

The point that Paul is making here is that because the Christian’s “reality” is “found in Christ” we are to be careful not to let anyone encourage us to chase after ‘shadows’ such as Sabbath day observance which has been completely fulfilled in Christ and superseded by Christ.

Christ is now the “reality’ of our Sabbath rest:

Matt 11:28-29...Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me...and you will find rest for your souls.

The Christian's 'rest' is a spiritual 'soul rest' and not a physical body rest. So we are to stop chasing 'shadows' on Saturdays or Sundays or any other days, and find true "rest" in the "reality" of Christ.

If the Christian chooses to set aside a specific day for physical body rest or for worship, that's his choice. The day he chooses does not matter. What matters is that he doesn't overwork himself on his job and that he sets aside time for worship. The time he chooses for worship is up to him and his local fellowship. The time is not commanded by 'law'.

That's the kind of freedom we have in Christ.

Just as the spring time feasts were fulfilled with His first advent, so also will the fall feasts be fulfilled with He second advent. You have to know the feasts to know how He is going to fulfill them.

It is true that knowing the feasts helps us to know how he fulfills them, but we do not have to observe the feasts to know how he fulfills them. We just have to know.

At the same time, our salvation is not dependent upon knowing the feasts or observing the feasts. Our salvation is dependent upon knowing Christ and observing Christ.

 

[Doveaman]

It is more likely that Paul was here speaking against the Judiazers who at the time wanted to force everyone to obey the Jewish interpretation of the Laws. He spoke against it elsewhere such as here, 3 verses later.

Colossians 2:20-23 (NASB95)
20 If you have died with Christ to the elementary principles of the world, why, as if you were living in the world, do you submit yourself to decrees, such as, 21 "Do not handle, do not taste, do not touch!" 22 (which all refer to things destined to perish with use)—in accordance with the commandments and teachings of men? 23 These are matters which have, to be sure, the appearance of wisdom in self-made religion and self-abasement and severe treatment of the body, but are of no value against fleshly indulgence.

True, but Paul was also speaking of the old covenant law of commandments which were canceled and taken away through Christ death at the cross.

Col 2:4, 8, 13-14, 16-18…See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ…God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code (the law), with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away (the law), nailing it to the cross.

 

[Stryder06]

If you can prove the Ten Commandment law was pass down by word of mouth you would have a point.

But if you cannot prove this you have no point.

You only have speculations.

Speculations are just empty words.

Show me some substance, please.

Consider this:

Rom 5:13...Before the law was given, sin was in the world. But sin is not taken into account when there is no law.

The point that Paul is making here is that 'sin' can exist even though 'no law' exist, and if there is 'no law' the 'sin' is not "taken into account"; we are not held accountable by God for the 'sin' if there is 'no law'.

This is why a Christian at times may 'sin' (unintentionally), but he is not held accountable by God for the 'sin', because, for the Christian, there is no law to convict him or condemn Him for the 'sin'. There is only justification by grace through a living faith in Jesus Christ.

A living faith expressing itself through love covers a multitude of sins (Gal 5:6, 1 Pet 4:8).

'Law', on the other hand, convicts us of 'sin' and condemns us for 'sin'.

This is why "all who rely on observing the law are under a curse..."Gal 3:10.

They are under the 'curse' of the law's conviction of 'sin' and the 'curse' of the law's condemnation for 'sin'.

Christians would do well to stay clear of this "curse" by staying clear of "the law" that convicts us and condemns us for our 'sins'.

I really don't see your logic here. You're trying to say that sin can exist without the law, when the bible specifically tells us that sin is the transgression of the law. Line upon line, precept upon precept. The bible tells us that Abraham kept the commandments of God. That alone is evidence that the commandments of God were passed down by word of mouth.

You say that the christian can sin unintnetionally and not be held accountable? This is only true because once they sin, they must repent of that sin and ask forgiveness. Your arguements here are based on a gross misunderstanding to what the bible teaches us about the law. Paul says that the law is holy and just and good. If this is the case than He is obviously not trying to teach that a holy just and good law no longer applies.

Try thinking of it like this. In our country, or whatever country you are from, you have a set of laws that you must obey. As long as you walk in accordance with the laws of the land you are not under the penalty for breaking that law. But once you break the law of the land, you are held accountable for that, you are now under the penalty for breaking that law.

It's the same thing with God's law. We as christians, as long as we walk in accordance with the law, are not under its penalty, but once we break it, we are under it's penalty, but because of the Grace of God all we have to do is ask for forgiveness in Jesus' name and it is granted us. At that point we move forward and are no longer under its penalty.

You say that the SDA's are afraid of complex arguements. For one we are to avoid arguements as the bible admonishes. Unfortunately I believe that we get caught up trying to do the work of the Holy Spirit by convicting people ourselves. You really should study what law Paul is talking about in regards to being nailed to the cross. He is speficifally talking about the law of Moses, not the 10 commandments. There is a difference.
By your logic an adulturer, as long as he/she says they are christian, has no need to stop their sinful ways because the law no longer applies to them.

This is not what the bible teaches.

 

[Tu Es Petrus]

 

[heymikey80]

I think there is a difference between the letter of the law and the Spirit of the law.

It was the Spirit of the law who engraved the letter of the law on stone in the form of Ten Commandments then gave them to Moses.

Yes, there's a difference. Limiting the letter to the letter ... kills.

The Spirit is obviously superior to the letter in that He wrote the letter.

But does He, the Spirit, live by the letter?

Does He observe the letter?

It's pretty clear: the letter kills. He Who wrote the letter, also wrote the statement that the letter kills. His point? Well, one point is to communicate that the letter kills. But that wasn't His only point, as there are other benefits to knowing the Law.

For example, does He, the Spirit, observe the seventh-day Sabbath which we know was included in the letter engraved on stone?

"The man went away and told the Jews that it was Jesus who had healed him. And this was why the Jews were persecuting Jesus, because he was doing these things on the Sabbath. But Jesus answered them, "My Father is working until now, and I am working." This was why the Jews were seeking all the more to kill him, because not only was he breaking the Sabbath, but he was even calling God his own Father, making himself equal with God." John 5:15-18
​

I'm going to take Scripture at its word: Jesus was breaking the Sabbath, according to the letter of the Law.

If He does not, then one can conclude He doesn’t observe the other nine either.

Not the case. Observing the spirit of the Sabbath by giving rest from sin and corruption -- that's a much more needed and critical thing to morality than observing the letter of the Law.

Could He discard one and keep nine.

The mistake is in assuming, that by violating the letter of a Law intended to prohibit sinful people from sinning, you are thereby preventing the Holy Spirit of God from sinning.

That's not the case. Numerous things are prohibited by the Law because they are hijacked by our sinfulness into more sinfulness.

God can't be hijacked into sin. We can.

Not according to James:

For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all. For He who said, "Do not commit adultery," also said, "Do not murder." Now if you do not commit adultery, but you do murder, you have become a transgressor of the law… James 2:10-11.

So maybe He discarded all Ten.

Maybe He didn't discard a single part of the Spirit behind all ten.

This way there is no law for us to 'transgress', and, therefore, no 'guilt'.

Where there is no law there is no transgression...sin is not taken into account when there is no law...Rom 4:15, 5:13.

The problem here: "death reigned" in this time. Our sinfulness still retained its punishment. So the guilt couldn't be discovered, but the punishment remained even without our knowing much about what our sins deserve.

All there is for us Christians is freedom in Christ; no transgressions, no guilt, no conviction, no condemnation, there is only freedom for us through a living faith in Christ.

It is for freedom that Christ has set us free. Stand firm, then, and do not let yourselves be burdened again by a yoke of slavery...Gal 5:1.

No, there is not only freedom -- not if we're capable of being ensnared again by a yoke of slavery. If all there were, were freedom -- then Paul couldn't say what he said next. We can be ensnared again. So no, not "all there is ... is freedom in Christ;" Christ set us free -- so we're to stand in that freedom, not to become entangled again in sins, but to constantly seek the freedom Christ set us free for.

 

[visionary]

One would conclude it is in the positive because he or she wants to believe it is in the positive, but if you read the context of Paul’s argument without bias you will see he was speaking in the negative.

Col 2:4, 8, 13-14, 16-18…I tell you this so that no one may deceive you by fine-sounding arguments…See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ…God made you alive with Christ. He forgave us all our sins, having canceled the written code (the law), with its regulations, that was against us and that stood opposed to us; he took it away, nailing it to the cross…Therefore do not let anyone judge you by what you eat or drink, or with regard to a religious festival, a New Moon celebration or a Sabbath day. These are a shadow of the things that were to come; the reality, however, is found in Christ.

The point that Paul is making here is that because the Christian’s “reality” is “found in Christ” we are to be careful not to let anyone encourage us to chase after ‘shadows’ such as Sabbath day observance which has been completely fulfilled in Christ and superseded by Christ.

Christ is now the “reality’ of our Sabbath rest:

Matt 11:28-29...Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I will give you rest. Take my yoke upon you and learn from me...and you will find rest for your souls.

The Christian's 'rest' is a spiritual 'soul rest' and not a physical body rest. So we are to stop chasing 'shadows' on Saturdays or Sundays or any other days, and find true "rest" in the "reality" of Christ.

If the Christian chooses to set aside a specific day for physical body rest or for worship, that's his choice. The day he chooses does not matter. What matters is that he doesn't overwork himself on his job and that he sets aside time for worship. The time he chooses for worship is up to him and his local fellowship. The time is not commanded by 'law'.

That's the kind of freedom we have in Christ.
It is true that knowing the feasts helps us to know how he fulfills them, but we do not have to observe the feasts to know how he fulfills them. We just have to know.

At the same time, our salvation is not dependent upon knowing the feasts or observing the feasts. Our salvation is dependent upon knowing Christ and observing Christ.

Hey at least you are coming one step closer to understanding the value of the feasts. For that, it is a start. God has His appointed times, moedim, which are the rehearsals, and he who practices gains spiritual insights.

 

[RND]

I'm going to take Scripture at its word: Jesus was breaking the Sabbath, according to the letter of the Law.

While I've almost always agreed with most of your assessments and posts Mikey I have to ask; According to "who's" law?

[FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif] The scribes among the Pharisees created and transmitted the Pharisaic rabbinical traditions. The body of traditional law that they formulated, called the Halakah (preserved in the Mishnah), is extra-biblical. Although authoritative for Jews who follow Pharisaic tradition, much of the Halakah is not directly supported by Scripture, but is intended as a "hedge" about the law, to prevent any possibility of its being broken.

Ironically, in an attempt to ensure their law-keeping by putting a "hedge" about the law, the Pharisees were breaking[/FONT][FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif] the law, for God had said: "You shall not add to the word which I command you, nor take anything from it, that you may keep the commandments of the Lord your God which I command you" (Deuteronomy 4:2; also 12:32). By adding the weight of their tradition to the law of God, they bound "heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on men’s shoulders" (Matthew 23:4).
[/FONT][FONT=arial, helvetica, sans-serif]
The Pharisees placed the authority of their traditions above that of Scripture itself, thus going against the word of God. Scripture scholar Joachim Jeremias affirms that for the Pharisees, the oral tradition was "above the Torah," and that the esoteric writings containing scribal teachings were regarded as inspired and surpassing the canonical books "in value and sanctity" (Jerusalem in the Time of Jesus, pp. 236, 238–239). Alfred Edersheim also points out that traditional law was of "even greater obligation than Scripture itself" (The Life and Times of Jesus the Messiah, Book I, 1.98). [/FONT]

Did Jesus Break the Sabbath?
By Rod Reynolds

 

[MamaZ]

Jesus is the Lord of the sabbath. This is why we enter into His eternal rest. We no longer have to strive to enter with the keeping of the law.

 

[RND]

Jesus is the Lord of the sabbath. This is why we enter into His eternal rest. We no longer have to strive to enter with the keeping of the law.

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

MamaZ, "Sunday keepers" insist that they "keep" Sunday in recognition of Jesus' resurrection. Doesn't that make "Easter Sunday" kind of redundant?

 

[christianmomof3]

Matt. 22:36 Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 And He said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.''
38 This is the great and first commandment.
39 And the second is like it: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself.''
40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.

 

[MamaZ]

1Jo 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. 1Jo 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us [our] sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. 1Jo 1:10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.

1Jo 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

MamaZ, "Sunday keepers" insist that they "keep" Sunday in recognition of Jesus' resurrection. Doesn't that make "Easter Sunday" kind of redundant?

Sin was in the world before the law. If I do not make it to sunday Worship I will go another day to gather myself together with believers. One day or the next means nothing to the true worhip of God.. For everyday is to be a sabbath day where we rest in Christ our Hope..

 

[RND]

Matt. 22:36 Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?
37 And He said to him, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.''
38 This is the great and first commandment.
39 And the second is like it: "You shall love your neighbor as yourself.''
40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets.

Old Covenant......the entire structure of the "Law and Prophets," the Torah and tanakh are built on these two simple laws. Now, can either be done without the Holy Spirit?

Roamns 8:7 - For the sinful nature is always hostile to God. It never did obey God's laws, and it never will.

 

[MamaZ]

we have entered into the sabbath Rest.. For we rest in Christ and His finished work on the cross and His ressurection to Victory for us..

 

[RND]

Sin was in the world before the law.

That's right! And so was the sabbath.

If I do not make it to sunday Worship I will go another day to gather myself together with believers. One day or the next means nothing to the true worhip of God..

What does God say about that?

Psa 92:1 [[A Psalm [or] Song for the sabbath day.]] [It is a] good [thing] to give thanks unto the LORD, and to sing praises unto thy name, O most High:
Isa 56:2 Blessed [is] the man [that] doeth this, and the son of man [that] layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.

For everyday is to be a sabbath day where we rest in Christ our Hope..

But you choose Sunday. Why?

 

[LittleLambofJesus]

That's right! And so was the sabbath.

What does God say about that?


But you choose Sunday. Why?

I knew it would get around to that eventually

http://www.christianforums.com/t6982465/

Is Sunday worship the mark of the beast? I am becoming convinced that the 7th day adventists might be right about this after all (I'm not an adventist, we don't have that religion over here).. I quote from William Cooper's book 'Behold a pale horse'...The Pope has challenged world leaders by claiming that the people of the world already recognise the authority of Rome because they observe the Sunday Sabbath that was ordered by the Pope in the council of Laodicea in AD 364. The seventh day, the sabbath as handed down to Moses by God is Saturday, the celebration of Sunday as the sabbath is verification that the people recognize the Pope as superior to God''...

 

[MamaZ]

That's right! And so was the sabbath.

What does God say about that?

Psa 92:1 [[A Psalm [or] Song for the sabbath day.]] [It is a] good [thing] to give thanks unto the LORD, and to sing praises unto thy name, O most High:
Isa 56:2 Blessed [is] the man [that] doeth this, and the son of man [that] layeth hold on it; that keepeth the sabbath from polluting it, and keepeth his hand from doing any evil.



But you choose Sunday. Why?

Probably because as a family we go on Sunday because this is when our assembly assembles together. What difference does it make what day we assemble. For we are not commanded as Christians to observe any day or any new moon. Isaiah is speaking to the Jewish nation and not to Christians. We as His body are in His eternal rest. He is our sabbath for in Him do we rest forever and forever for He Is our righteousness..