YES or NO: Do The 10 Commandments Still Apply To Us Today? (2)

[walloffire]

I understand it, do you?

What's to understand? It says what it says. Pretty cut and dry.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Way to jump in after 1500 posts, but its all good. You opinion is valuable. We have been through that verse. I understand it, do you?

Well Tony it is pretty cut and dry.

You either seem to be confused about it or don't understand:

Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Because in one side of your mouth you say 'The Torah wasn't abolished' and then on the other side of your mouth you say 'it is not to be kept'(unquote). You don't understand or are confused because you contradict what our Lord and Savior says.

The Torah is either to be kept or it isn't. Now let's not go into another tangent about how the Holy Spirit should be leading you into keeping it.

Leaving whether or not we should be keeping it on our own effort or by the Holy Spirit's effort aside.....

Should we heed the words of our Lord and Savior?

Should believers do as Yeshua states and teach the following of the Torah?

And btw the word fulfill the sages of Israel new what fulfill meant. So don't go changing fulfill to conform to your 'theology'. Even the sages new what fulfill meant. Even in Yeshua's rabbinical way of teaching fulfill meant to make the Torah stand up, make it stand up by it's true meaning.

There has even been some people who run from this by saying since the Gospel's were written to Jews specifically that Jesus words don't apply to them. Or that he said this before the New Covenant. Excuses to get around the question.

Marc

 

[Tkjjc]

Because in one side of your mouth you say 'The Torah wasn't abolished' and then on the other side of your mouth you say 'it is not to be kept'(unquote). You don't understand or are confused because you contradict what our Lord and Savior says.

The Torah can never be abolished. It can't. The Mosaic Law can't. The Noah Laws can't. The Temple and ALL it's sacrificial laws can't. The Levitical Priesthood laws can't. The Prophets can't. The Oracles written in books can't. The Pslams can't.

Nothing in the Old Testament, can't.
We have to take it ALL in, and it could never be abolished.

It this TRUE? Do I speak Truth here? Yes or no?

Even Jesus said that He didn't come to abolish the Law or the Prophets, but to fullfil them. Right?

Are we agreeing thus far?

Jesus said:
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

 

[walloffire]

Peter had a vision about how God had cleansed food from the dietary laws:

Act 10:11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending unto him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
Act 10:12 Wherein were all manner of fourfooted beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
Act 10:13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
Act 10:14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
Act 10:15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common.

And in Acts 15, the Holy Spirit goes on to speak about what was and was not abolished, and what still needs to be abstained from. This was the final revelation about what is to be kept.

Act 15:5 But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying, That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
Act 15:6 And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
(...)
Act 15:10 Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples, which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
Act 15:11 But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.
(...)
Act 15:19 Wherefore my sentence is, that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
Act 15:20 But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
(...)
Act 15:28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things;
Act 15:29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well, Fare ye well.

 

[walloffire]

"What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common."

 

[walloffire]

"no greater burden than these necessary things;"

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

The Torah can never be abolished. It can't. The Mosaic Law can't. The Noah Laws can't. The Temple and ALL it's sacrificial laws can't. The Levitical Priesthood laws can't. The Prophets can't. The Oracles written in books can't. The Pslams can't.

Nothing in the Old Testament, can't.
We have to take it ALL in, and it could never be abolished.

It this TRUE? Do I speak Truth here? Yes or no?

Even Jesus said that He didn't come to abolish the Law or the Prophets, but to fullfil them. Right?

Are we agreeing thus far?

Jesus said:
Mat 5:19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

ven Jesus said that He didn't come to abolish the Law or the Prophets, but to fullfil them. Right?

You are right if you mean He makes fuller the understanding of his disciples concerning the Torah and Prophets, so they can more fully express what being God’s people is all about. This is consistent with Judaism, as one of the Messiah's main functions would be to complete our understanding of the Torah & Prophets. The evidence for Yeshua being the true Messiah is that He meet the criteria set forth in the Old Testament, which in turn says the Torah is eternal.

The Sermon on the Mount proves that Yeshua explains the fuller meaning of the Torah , teaching the people to not only keep the Law, but to go beyond the "letter of the Law, understanding the Godly principles behind the commandments, as this is how we come to know God, which is His desire for us all.

On the other hand if you believe in fulfill in any other way then you are not right. As an example "since He fulfilled it that means we don't have to do it anymore" or something along these lines.

Here are some examples of 'fulfill' from the sages of Israel;

Exodus Rabbah 40:1

R. Hoshaya said: Anyone who has knowledge but lacks the fear of sin, really has nothing, just as a carpenter who has no tools with him is not a real carpenter; because the bolts which guard learning are the fear of sin, as it says, And the fear of the Lord is its treasure-house (Isa. XXXIII, 6). R. Johanan said: If one knows the Torah but does not fulfill it, it were better for him that he had not been born,

Numbers Rabbah 3:12

He was called Kohath for this reason: You read: If the iron be blunt (Eccl. X, 10), which means, if you perceive that the heavens have become `blunt' and refuse to send down rain, having become like iron- as you read: 'And I will make your heaven as iron'-be assured that it is as a punishment for the non-observance of the Torah; for it is written, And one do not whet the edge (ib.), that is, because they did not fulfill the commandments of the Torah which was given to them by God face to face-as you read, The Lord spoke with you face to face, etc. (Deut. V, 4)

Numbers Rabbah 11:1

The wise shall inherit honour (Prov. III, 35) applies to Israel who are called wise when they fulfill the Torah and the commandments; as it says, Observe therefore and do them; for this is your wisdom and your understanding, etc. (Deut. IV, 6)

The way the ancient sages used fulfill is the exact same way our Lord and Savior used it in context. I each instance from the sages I presented what is it to fulfill the commandments?

Marc

 

[Tkjjc]

No,

I am trusting you right now as a sheep being led. Let us say for a second that I don't know Jesus, except in a book, and never took Him in as my Savior and am looking to Marc to help complete my understanding, so that by Marc's teachings, and interpretations, I can have eternal life through Jesus.

Now I have read the Bible. The Torah, as defined as the first 5 books of Moses, and the rest of the Oracles and the New Testament.

How according to Marc, do I start? And this is between you and I, open for reading here on these forums. Not going to be a PM fest, but so that others will learn also.

Teach me...where do I start.

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

Wow. Come out of Her, Marc. That was extremely racial and prejudiced. God is not a Jew. You really think that? So what is everyone else, monkeys?

Scripture is scripture.

But one of the elders said to me, “Do not weep. Behold, the Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David, has prevailed to open the scroll and to loose its seven seals.

Who's going to be coming through the clouds?The Lion of the tribe of Judah, the Root of David

Marc

 

[Messianic Jewboy]

No,

I am trusting you right now as a sheep being led. Let us say for a second that I don't know Jesus, except in a book, and never took Him in as my Savior and am looking to Marc to help complete my understanding, so that by Marc's teachings, and interpretations, I can have eternal life through Jesus.

Now I have read the Bible. The Torah, as defined as the first 5 books of Moses, and the rest of the Oracles and the New Testament.

How according to Marc, do I start? And this is between you and I, open for reading here on these forums. Not going to be a PM fest, but so that others will learn also.

Teach me...where do I start.

Keep it simple from the start repent, believe in Yeshua, and confess Him as your Savior.

Repent and believe the Good News that Yeshua died
for our sins and rose from the dead on the 3rd day.
If you as a sinner confess your sin and are sorry
for them so that you want to repent and firmly trust
in God and His Savior then you will be saved.

Repentance is key as it means 'stop what you are doing, turn around and start obeying God'. The Spirit of Truth will lead you because when you firmly trust in Yeshua you will receive the Holy Spirit. Also For Moses has had throughout many generations those who preach him in every city, being read in the synagogues every Sabbath.

Marc

 

[Shredhead]

YES or NO: Do The 10 Commandments Still Apply To Us Today?

Sorry to go back to the beginning guys .
Short answer is , yes ! they sure do .
The good news though , is that in Christ , we can keep them . For it's His righteousness that God sees , not ours .

 

[SpiritDriven]

YES or NO: Do The 10 Commandments Still Apply To Us Today?

No.... The law is not made for a Righteouse person.

Who is a Righteouse person ?....anybody who puts their Faith in Christ Jesus, instead of trying to live a Law based life for Righteousness.

Peace

 

[Shredhead]

No.... The law is not made for a Righteouse person.

Who is a Righteouse person ?....anybody who puts their Faith in Christ Jesus, instead of trying to live a Law based life for Righteousness.

Peace

True , however , God will still judge mankind by His standard , which includes the 10 commandments . The law was given to expose sin , & show our need for a saviour .

 

[PROPHECYKID]

True , however , God will still judge mankind by His standard , which includes the 10 commandments . The law was given to expose sin , & show our need for a saviour .

I AGREE

 

[holo]

True , however , God will still judge mankind by His standard , which includes the 10 commandments . The law was given to expose sin , & show our need for a saviour .

Yes, and then when we've come to faith, we are no longer under the "schoolmaster".

 

[PROPHECYKID]

Yes, and then when we've come to faith, we are no longer under the "schoolmaster".

The 10 commandments were not the schoolmaster. The law of ordinances and sacrifices was the schoolmaster. When you have faith in Jesus as the Saviour all of the sacrifices will have no practical significance to you. Love however will accomplish the 10 commandments so they still apply

 

[holo]

The 10 commandments were not the schoolmaster. The law of ordinances and sacrifices was the schoolmaster. When you have faith in Jesus as the Saviour all of the sacrifices will have no practical significance to you. Love however will accomplish the 10 commandments so they still apply

The ten commandments were part of the law, though an extremely important part of it (sort of the backbone). But anyway, the law is a whole. It has never been divided, nothing has ever been removed from it or added to it.

And it has never had anything to to with neither gentiles nor believers. I'm sure the jews of Jesus' day would've laughed in your face if you, a gentile, tried to claim that YOU were under the law. They'd laugh even harder if you'd had the gall to say you were only under part of the law...

 

[SpiritDriven]

True , however , God will still judge mankind by His standard , which includes the 10 commandments . The law was given to expose sin , & show our need for a saviour .

I break the Laws of God every day.....and so do you.

They dont apply to me however, my right standing with God is through Faith in Jesus, and not via the works of the Law, via the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.

You are now left with no way to mix Law and Grace.

Peace

 

[Shredhead]

I break the Laws of God every day.....and so do you.

They dont apply to me however, my right standing with God is through Faith in Jesus, and not via the works of the Law, via the works of the Law shall no flesh be justified.

You are now left with no way to mix Law and Grace.

Peace

I agree , in part .
The Law still applies to you & me . It's because they apply to you & me , that we need a saviour . As I've said earlier , the good news is , that Christ has fulfilled the Law . Because we are in Him , so have we .

The Law is still relevent , but has to include Gods' Grace if we're to explain His plan for our salvation successfully . The Law has not been done away with , it's penalty has been paid for those in Him . However , this doesn't lessen it's potency , for we must remain in Him .

Yes, and then when we've come to faith, we are no longer under the "schoolmaster".

That's like saying , because we know Jesus , we no longer need Him . The schoolmaster didn't go anywhere , & has not changed , the penalty for sin is still death , that's absolute . While Jesus has paid that penalty for those in Him , it's only because we are in Him , by Gods' grace , that brings salvation .

 

[Adoptedbyhim]

True , however , God will still judge mankind by His standard , which includes the 10 commandments

Actually those who are in Christ Jesus have been Judged already.. We have been declared Righteous.. For it rests in Christ and not in the Law..