Yes, but what if we are not wrong?

[Wryetui]

I was just trying to help you to see how reality is, if you don't want to accept it then it is your choice. I tried to open your eyes, but maybe you don't want to... Sorry if any of you felt insulted by me.

 

[BL2KTN]

Again, who made the snake?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I was just trying to help you to see how reality is, if you don't want to accept it then it is your choice. I tried to open your eyes, but maybe you don't want to... Sorry if any of you felt insulted by me.

It's not so much an insult to us as individuals, but an insult to the very concept of moral accountability, and an insult to humanity. It is claimed that we are born with a blood curse, inherited from distant ancestors of ours who were created without any pre-existing concept of right and wrong, and that the only way to alleviate this curse is to submit our minds to the dogmas and practices of one particular religion. We are told that acting morally is not nearly as important as believing the right doctrines, with the perverse consequence that those who believe wrongly, but act justly, are to be punished solely for being mistaken in their religious beliefs. All sins are forgivable, but the sin of doubt and nonbelief is not.

 

[FireDragon76]

We are told that acting morally is not nearly as important as believing the right doctrines, with the perverse consequence that those who believe wrongly, but act justly, are to be punished solely for being mistaken in their religious beliefs. All sins are forgivable, but the sin of doubt and nonbelief is not.

Wryetui is Romanian and Orthodox. Orthodox absolutely believe that morality is important, all Christians do to some extent. But we will not be judged according to a merciless moralism, but how we faithfully live.

The problem isn't so much that unbelief is sinful, but lack of faith does not bring eternal life.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Wryetui is Romanian and Orthodox. Orthodox absolutely believe that morality is important, all Christians do to some extent. But we will not be judged according to a merciless moralism, but how we faithfully live.

Exactly. You won't be held morally accountable for your actions, but for whether you believed in the correct doctrines.

The problem isn't so much that doubt is sinful, but lack of faith does not bring eternal life.

Which is a rather perverse system to call "just". It simply has nothing to do with justice.

 

[bhsmte]

People see suffering in the world and they conclude the world is ugly, this is understandable. Sin has that power on people: to cause despair and a darkening of the mind. It is not until they come to the Great Physician and follow his Perscription that they will be able to appreciate the goodness. That means entering into the life of faith. Anselm, one of the greatest theologians of the West, said that he had "faith seeking understanding". Understanding does not precede faith, how could it? Sin is a sickness and unless you are wiling to undergo treatment for it, there is no cure.

The issues i can not reconcile, go far deeper then simple suffering.

 

[bhsmte]

So your complaint is that God did not create Stepford. You seem to think that God's plan should not be any more complex than the plot of a Lone Ranger episode.

You claim (correctly) that modern fundamentalists (as distinct from classical Fundamentalists) don't see shades of grey, but can't you see that God could have a plan with more complexity than the plot of a Lone Ranger episode?

No, not quite that simple.

 

[bhsmte]

I was just trying to help you to see how reality is, if you don't want to accept it then it is your choice. I tried to open your eyes, but maybe you don't want to... Sorry if any of you felt insulted by me.

Doesnt appear as though you have shown to support your view of reality. You seem to contradict yourself quite a bit.

 

[FireDragon76]

Exactly. You won't be held morally accountable for your actions, but for whether you believed in the correct doctrines.

No, not true at all. Especially in the case of the poster you are responding to. Doctrine in the EO church is there to guide in faithful living, but it is not an end in itself.

Which is a rather perverse system to call "just". It simply has nothing to do with justice.

Which is a good thing in some ways, as we do not get our due as sinners. God is both just and merciful, and the reconciliation of that justice with mercy is our salvation.

 

[bhsmte]

Wryetui is Romanian and Orthodox. Orthodox absolutely believe that morality is important, all Christians do to some extent. But we will not be judged according to a merciless moralism, but how we faithfully live.

The problem isn't so much that unbelief is sinful, but lack of faith does not bring eternal life.

In your view then, does the hindu or non believer who lives a good life, get treated the same way at death as the christian believer?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

No, not true at all. Especially in the case of the poster you are responding to. Doctrine in the EO church is there to guide in faithful living, but it is not an end in itself.

You seem to be rephrasing my point, rather than disagreeing with it.

Which is a good thing in some ways, as we do not get our due as sinners. God is both just and merciful, and the reconciliation of that justice with mercy is our salvation.

A good thing that people are not held morally accountable for their actions?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

In your view then, does the hindu or non believer who lives a good life, get treated the same way at death as the christian believer?

That would entail moral accountability, which is apparently not so vitally important as faith.

 

[RDKirk]

Faith is imagining something and then pretending that what is imaginary is real.

It was said by the ancient Greeks, "Wind is the evidence of the unseen air." The writer of Hebrews reused that line to say, "Faith is the evidence of things unseen."

Faith is not something imagined, any more than the wind is something imagined. A person who has faith knows that he has faith--it's not imagined any more than hatred or desire is imagined.

A person who actually has faith doesn't have to have faith in faith. He knows he has it, it's palpable, it's undeniable, and it's the evidence that something more unseeable lies beyond it.

 

[RDKirk]

In your view then, does the hindu or non believer who lives a good life, get treated the same way at death as the christian believer?

Hard for any of us to judge. As I've said before, scripture multiple times indicates that God takes how much a man knows into consideration in His judgment.

For instance, God refused to destroy the Ninevites specifically because they were ignorant of Him. Paul wrote:

When Gentiles, who do not have the Law, do by nature things required by the Law, they are a Law for themselves, even though they do not have the Law. -- Romans 2

As one pastor has said, "It depends on how a man walked in the light that he had."

This is not to say that Hindu or Buddhist theology is salvational--to a certain extent, that man who is "a Law for himself" will have rejected the ends projected by those doctrines to seek something else.

C.S. Lewis touches on this in the latter chapters of his novel "The Last Battle," which is the final story of the "Chronicles of Narnia." In this, a man who had considered himself the enemy of Aslan--but only because he'd never been told the truth about Aslan--is saved to the New Narnia by Aslan because he'd always sought to live the life that was in the nature of Aslan.

 

[Wryetui]

In your view then, does the hindu or non believer who lives a good life, get treated the same way at death as the christian believer?

I can not make statements in the name of God, neither do you, so you will have to ask God in order to get a response.

I didn't contradict myself, if so, tell me where and I will explain what you didn't understand.

 

[FireDragon76]

In your view then, does the hindu or non believer who lives a good life, get treated the same way at death as the christian believer?

All I know is that God loves them and he is merciful. Beyond that, I don't think our religion has definitive answers.

Eternal life is not about living a good life, it is about communion with the Source of Life. Goodness is part of that but if we were to be judged only by our own goodness, we would be found wanting.

 

[Wryetui]

That would entail moral accountability, which is apparently not so vitally important as faith.

Faith is the most important thing, as I see now, because Christ is the most important One in our lives. Morality comes after faith, one who follows Christ will be moral too, but Christ didn't come on this earth to teach us about morality, He came so we can be saved, morality doesn't take you to Heaven, Christ, our Lord and our God, does.

 

[bhsmte]

It was said by the ancient Greeks, "Wind is the evidence of the unseen air." The writer of Hebrews reused that line to say, "Faith is the evidence of things unseen."

Faith is not something imagined, any more than the wind is something imagined. A person who has faith knows that he has faith--it's not imagined any more than hatred or desire is imagined.

A person who actually has faith doesn't have to have faith in faith. He knows he has it, it's palpable, it's undeniable, and it's the evidence that something more unseeable lies beyond it.

I completely agree.

Personal experiences and perceptions are indeed very real to the person that has them. Our minds have evolved to allow us to form our own perceptions and depending one ones psyche, will vary from person to person.

 

[BL2KTN]

Who made the snake?

 

[bhsmte]

All I know is that God loves them and he is merciful. Beyond that, I don't think our religion has definitive answers.

Eternal life is not about living a good life, it is about communion with the Source of Life. Goodness is part of that but if we were to be judged only by our own goodness, we would be found wanting.

If your religion does not have definitive answers, how do you know eternal life is about communion with the source of life, which I would assume you mean to be belief in your God?

And if eternal life is only available for those who commune with your God, my initial point stands.