Yes, but what if we are not wrong?

[bhsmte]

Man fall because of his choice, not because God lead him into it. The capacity of choice is within every one of us and there is nothing bad in it, as there is nothing bad in a knife, it depends how you use it.

Does not answer the question.

If man has the choice to sin, this would mean he was not created "perfect", because being perfect, would be absent the ability to sin.

Tell me, did God know man would sin, or was he surprised at man sinning?

 

[quatona]

Hello there guys. I am sure this have been discussed before in this forum, but I would like to know your point of view in my post here. What if, after all, the judeo-christian turns out to be the only one (as I believe He is), you die, but you realize you are perfectly conscious, you have your memories intact, but you are standing before Christ, before God, and it turns out that your entire life you have been denying Him. What now?

Yes, what to it? What happens next depends entirely on God´s character, I guess.

 

[variant]

If you're not wrong, you're not wrong.

The real interesting question is to ask how could any deity be so angry about someone just getting something wrong.

That is a good question.

While it makes very little sense for a supreme being to be angry over the mistakes of a mortal minds conception of the universe, it makes a good amount of sense for those that wish to speak for God to be angry at people questioning their legitimacy.

 

[variant]

Because they're recorded by fallible humans. The only theists left listening to this argument are the rigid fundamentalists who created it

This is one of the most satisfying responses I've seen in a while.

The rigid fundamentalists are probably simply uncomfortable with the ambiguity of the problem of "what God wants" being just as unclear as other problems of the world.

 

[essentialsaltes]

Hello there guys. I am sure this have been discussed before in this forum, but I would like to know your point of view in my post here. What if, after all, the judeo-christian turns out to be the only one (as I believe He is), you die, but you realize you are perfectly conscious, you have your memories intact, but you are standing before Christ, before God, and it turns out that your entire life you have been denying Him. What now?

"Sorry about that, bro. I was wrong. Are we cool?"

Holds out fist for a fist bump.

"Don't leave me hanging."

Scenario A:

fist-bump

"Of course we're cool, bro! Forgiveness is kinda my thing. Come on in."

Scenario B:

"Nope, sorry, pal. Lake of fire for you."

Presses SMITE button

 

[BL2KTN]

Man fall because of his choice, not because God lead him into it. The capacity of choice is within every one of us and there is nothing bad in it, as there is nothing bad in a knife, it depends how you use it.

Who created the snake?

 

[jacknife]

I'd get in with my hilarious Christopher Walken impersonations.

 

[Ana the Ist]

What do you want God to do? To burst into Saudi Arabia forcing everyone to believe in His Son? Wouldn't that make all the atheists in the world criticize Him because He was a liar concerning free will? Oh but that's no problem, He would shut up those atheists by brainwashing them too, and now that He got into brainwashing, let's just brainwash all people, forcing them to be like robots and making them believe in Him, done!

I find it quite awesome how atheists always argue about God not helping the rest of the world by sending His grace over them and making them be saved, but they don't look at themselves. Look at you, you live in a christian country, you were a christian but you refused God completely, you chose not to love Him and you rather say He doesn't exist, but yet complain about God not forcing people around the world to believe in Him

Whoa...pump the brakes there kiddo...

I may have been born into a "christian nation" but I was never indoctrinated into any religion. I learned about christianity well after I had reasoned there are no gods. I can no more suddenly become a christian than you can suddenly become a muslim. The point others have made is a valid one...believing the myths of an ancient Jewish cult is not a realistic expectation of me.

To answer your question, I would go to hell if I were wrong. I can't imagine I would have any questions for god...I don't think I would see much point in them. I'm comfortable with that outcome though, as I would not want to share an eternity with a creature who would punish me for how he made me. I'd rather burn in hell.

 

[Received]

The rigid fundamentalists are probably simply uncomfortable with the ambiguity of the problem of "what God wants" being just as unclear as other problems of the world.

True story. I've always thought of fundamentalism as psychologically motivated by a demand for certainty, a lack of comfort with dealing with ambiguity.

 

[RDKirk]

Does not answer the question.

If man has the choice to sin, this would mean he was not created "perfect", because being perfect, would be absent the ability to sin.

Not at all. But wait, first where does the supposition that man was supposed to have been "perfect" come from?

Scripture says man was "good." Hebrew has its words that mean "perfect" and it's words that mean "good," and the difference is about the same as the difference between those two English words.

So first the notion that Adam was "perfect" is not supported by scripture. Adam was "good."

Tell me, did God know man would sin, or was he surprised at man sinning?

As I've said before, "This is God's Plan A." Scripture says over and over again that God had all of this planned before He even created the universe.

 

[agua]

True story. I've always thought of fundamentalism as psychologically motivated by a demand for certainty, a lack of comfort with dealing with ambiguity.

I've found that people who embrace ambiguity baulk at solid standards and certainty, because it requires uncomfortable decisions and hard work to be certain. Also certainty is polarising, as Jesus suggested.

 

[SteveB28]

What do you want God to do? To burst into Saudi Arabia forcing everyone to believe in His Son? Wouldn't that make all the atheists in the world criticize Him because He was a liar concerning free will? Oh but that's no problem, He would shut up those atheists by brainwashing them too, and now that He got into brainwashing, let's just brainwash all people, forcing them to be like robots and making them believe in Him, done!

I find it quite awesome how atheists always argue about God not helping the rest of the world by sending His grace over them and making them be saved, but they don't look at themselves. Look at you, you live in a christian country, you were a christian but you refused God completely, you chose not to love Him and you rather say He doesn't exist, but yet complain about God not forcing people around the world to believe in Him

Really, you go too far. Who said anything about "forcing". Your correspondent spoke of simply revealing himself effectively. Is that too much to expect of an omnipotent being, that he could honour his own call for people to worship him by at least letting them know he was there!?

I live in Australia. Please explain how the aboriginal people of my country could have avoided hell for the last several thousand years, since your God supposedly revealed himself to mankind? Or the Inuit? Or the Aztecs? Or the Japanese? Or Mongolians? Countless millions have gone to their deaths, never having known about this deity of yours, simply because their births were geographically inconvenient. And now, you would have us believe, they reside in hell through no fault of their own.

"For God so loved the world".......that he couldn't be bothered telling most of it about himself!

 

[SteveB28]

Who created the snake?

Indeed. Apparently it was the same monster that created hell, bubonic plague and children born without brains.

All hail!

By the way, I have read some of the formal debates in which you have participated. You are very sound, if I may be so bold.

 

[KEBO12345]

Scripture says man was "good." Hebrew has its words that mean "perfect" and it's words that mean "good," and the difference is about the same as the difference between those two English words.

So first the notion that Adam was "perfect" is not supported by scripture. Adam was "good."



As I've said before, "This is God's Plan A." Scripture says over and over again that God had all of this planned before He even created the universe.[/QUOTE]



That may be so, scripture saying that but it just proves how dismal
the early philosophers and mystics were about cosmology
(or ultimately how smart) since it really caught on.

Probably because it seems like one of the few something for nothing bargains
to come along. Tto the fearful ego needing a port in a storm. Christians love to sin, as their sin does not effect their afterlife in heaven, only their belief does. The sin becomes blessed, the adherent immune to its' effect on other sinners.

Christians continue to sin, they love it, it is part of the addiction.
Where then is the personal transformation? - There is none.

In actuality there is no good and bad. All information is neutral.
Any slant on it is manufactured by the minds of humans.

The same creator that made love also made rape, torture and every form of wickedness one can think of/ What is ... is best. Is perfect otherwise it could not be part of the quantum world we build our world on.

 

[bhsmte]

True story. I've always thought of fundamentalism as psychologically motivated by a demand for certainty, a lack of comfort with dealing with ambiguity.

Black and white thinking, grey doesn't go over well with fundies.

 

[bhsmte]

Not at all. But wait, first where does the supposition that man was supposed to have been "perfect" come from?

Scripture says man was "good." Hebrew has its words that mean "perfect" and it's words that mean "good," and the difference is about the same as the difference between those two English words.

So first the notion that Adam was "perfect" is not supported by scripture. Adam was "good."

You often here some Christians claim God created a "perfect" world and one has in this thread. I guess from your view point, you disagree, because I would assume, a perfect world would include perfect man.

As I've said before, "This is God's Plan A." Scripture says over and over again that God had all of this planned before He even created the universe.

To be blunt, if a God exists and he planned all of this, I am not impressed.

 

[FireDragon76]

For me, it is not about "denying", it is about being able to reconcile the story with reality in my own mind.

Since I could no longer reconcile the story after 40 years of being a Christian, I couldn't pretend I believed it, when I didn't.

Do you have no appreciation for mystery?

But back on topic, I think the OP's question is not helpful. We are all betting on something, none of us have absolute certainty.

I live in Australia. Please explain how the aboriginal people of my country could have avoided hell for the last several thousand years, since your God supposedly revealed himself to mankind? Or the Inuit? Or the Aztecs? Or the Japanese? Or Mongolians? Countless millions have gone to their deaths, never having known about this deity of yours, simply because their births were geographically inconvenient. And now, you would have us believe, they reside in hell through no fault of their own.

That is not necessarily the only possible Christian teaching on the subject.

The generations of pagans that have gone before are in the hands of a loving, merciful God. If they are saved, however, it is through the merits of Christ's death. Beyond saying that, the Bible has few specifics about the fate of the pagan who obeys the law given to him, and it really in the end is speculation. All we really know is that faith in Jesus Christ saves.

Bhsmte, I'll pray for you that you find an appreciation for the mystery of God's work in the world. When you do, it will be a blindingly beautiful vision that will take your breath away. The Creator of the universe loves you and sent his son to die for you, to reconcile you , despite your many sins, to him as not as a slave or mercenary, but a friend, but not only a friend, but also a beloved son, a prince crowned with even more dignity than Adam was give in creation, an inheritor of his kingdom and the eternal banquet of the Lamb. A great feast celebrating much rejoicing, for God and the Lamb will be with his people. No sun and moon to illumine us, just the light of God himself and the radiance of the saints in glory. And we shall then rest happily forevermore in the radiance of God's glory, like bathing and basking on some sunny tropical beach. And we will be praising the Name of Him who made it so, because Satan, sickness, sadness, pain, and death have all been thrown into the lake of fire. That is what it will be like.

 

[bhsmte]

I've found that people who embrace ambiguity baulk at solid standards and certainty, because it requires uncomfortable decisions and hard work to be certain. Also certainty is polarising, as Jesus suggested.

Well, I have found, those who claim fuzzy things are certain, do so because they have a psychological need to convince themselves they are certain.

 

[agua]

Well, I have found, those who claim fuzzy things are certain, do so because they have a psychological need to convince themselves they are certain.

Yes I agree.

 

[Wryetui]

The day you will understand that God doesn't send you to hell punishing you for not believing in Him, that hell is not a place and that we need Him, that day you will be healed. I find it quite amazing how you live your entire life without God and even insulting or criticizing Him, but when you die you expect that He is "fair" and He will accept you into heaven even with the rotten nature you have and you did nothing about it your entire life.