Yes, but what if we are not wrong?

[Freodin]

Is that what you think the message of the Cross is ?

So it seems that I don't understand what the message of the Cross is, oh my! ... I can just go by what "Christians" tell me it is.


So how about you tell me what you think it is, pretty please?

 

[knowledgeseeking]

Is anyone able to help me with my question debate from a Rabbi? I need to answer to glorify the Lord

 

[agua]

So it seems that I don't understand what the message of the Cross is, oh my! ... I can just go by what "Christians" tell me it is.
So how about you tell me what you think it is, pretty please?

What do you think it is ?

I find it interesting that a Christian site uses Atheist personas for post count building. Such a shame.

 

[Freodin]

What do you think it is ?

What do I, personally, think the "message of the cross" is? You are asking me that, an atheist? Really??

Ok, here you go.

People think that killing someone is a great way of solving differences and shuting up other people they disagree with. While this always results in at least on human being killed, it can sometimes backfire in regard to the original intent.

In regard to what Christians think the message of the cross is, what they tell others that this message is, and what I think the value of this asserted message is... I already answered that.

I find it interesting that a Christian site uses Atheist personas for post count building. Such a shame.

I find it interesting that on a Christian site, a Christian is unwilling or unable to answer a direct question regarding the Christian message.

I will ask for a last time: what do you think this message is, that, if I understood it correctly (which I obviously haven't, because you, the one who does understand it correctly won't tell me) would make me think it is "offensive", just as I think all the other "messages of the cross", one of which I provided as an example, I stupid and used in an offensive way.

 

[agua]

....I will ask for a last time: what do you think this message is, that, if I understood it correctly (which I obviously haven't, because you, the one who does understand it correctly won't tell me) would make me think it is "offensive",.

Whether you understand the message, or not, your behaviour proves that the message is offensive, to you.

The offence of the Cross is self evident to you, it seems.

 

[Freodin]

Whether you understand the message, or not, your behaviour proves that the message is offensive, to you.

And here is the thing that really really offends me: the sacrimonious, self-righteous stance of (some) Christians.

What is offensive here, to me, obviously, is YOUR behaviour.

I asked you, four times, to tell me what you think that this very important message is. You wouldn't answer.

I provided an answer to your original question: my understanding of the "Christian" version of "the cross"... if I misunderstood what a Christian preacher from a Christian ministry said, it now was your chance to clarify. You didn't.

I stated how this message - in whatever form - is often used to shame, browbeat and diminish unbelievers. I said, several times, that this was what I consider "offensive".

The offence of the Cross is self evident to you, it seems.

And thus the blinders go up again, not being able to understand other persons, the Christians retreat into "I know exactly what you think" position again.

 

[quatona]

Evidently, aqua is not interested in spreading the correct message.

 

[bhsmte]

Wrytetui this is interesting. I agree; I've found that the message of the Cross is offensive when people think about what it means.

How so?

Have any examples?

 

[bhsmte]

What do you think it is ?

I find it interesting that a Christian site uses Atheist personas for post count building. Such a shame.

Would you rather only have professed Christians on this site? You do know, there are Christian only parts of this site, where atheists can not post?

And by the way, some of the most vicious debates on this site, are between Christians debating theology, not between non believers and Christians.

 

[Wryetui]

I am getting tired of reading the "people with other religions" arguments. Of course they are, but we have to understand people. Yes, we all believe in God, Jews, Christians, Muslims or Dharma followers, but we believe in Him in different manners. This is because we are sinners and we get lost, we follow the wrong paths, when people get lost they find their own way, but there is only one exit: God! People trying to look for God is something very good, it is bad if they don't look for Him, every studied path or religion has it's own truth but blessed be the man who finds the fullness of the truth.

Atheists often argue with believers: "If you have so many faiths (even in Christianity) then it means there is no God because everyone sees Him in His own manner". But they don't consider the fact that people looking for something always take different paths, they get to the right path only when they feel the proximity of That Whom they look for, if we feel God as we should then we will be on the right faith. I am very blessed of being an Estern Orthodox.
Every faith in this world show that we are trying to find an exit, a way out, that we are trying to find God, the fountain of life. Only the lack of faith, the atheism fails into trying to find the exit, the way out, because the lack of faith, atheism is a failure. A failure that means sorrow. Atheists don't understand that sin is the supreme sadness and they die within this sin. They try to find the way out, the exit but not from sin, but from secundary things: poverty, physical suffering, etc... Only because someone got away from poverty, for example, it doesn't mean they are happy, just look at most of the "superstars" today, they are lost in drugs, sex, alcohol, lust and poor behaviour, what kind of happiness is this? No kind, this is eternal death, the true happiness is only at God.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

I am getting tired of reading the "people with other religions" arguments. Of course they are, but we have to understand people. Yes, we all believe in God, Jews, Christians, Muslims or Dharma followers, but we believe in Him in different manners. This is because we are sinners and we get lost, we follow the wrong paths, when people get lost they find their own way, but there is only one exit: God! People trying to look for God is something very good, it is bad if they don't look for Him, every studied path or religion has it's own truth but blessed be the man who finds the fullness of the truth.

You claimed that all people of other religions are trading in counterfeit currency. In making such a claim don't be surprised when someone asks you how you know that you have legitimate currency in your pocket.

Atheists often argue with believers: "If you have so many faiths (even in Christianity) then it means there is no God because everyone sees Him in His own manner".

No, we haven't argued that at all. Instead, we ask you how you know that the claims of your religion are true and that the claims of others are false. Is it possible that you are wrong?

But they don't consider the fact that people looking for something always take different paths, they get to the right path only when they feel the proximity of That Whom they look for, if we feel God as we should then we will be on the right faith. I am very blessed of being an Estern Orthodox.

How do you know that you're on the right path and that others have been led astray?

Every faith in this world show that we are trying to find an exit, a way out, that we are trying to find God, the fountain of life. Only the lack of faith, the atheism fails into trying to find the exit, the way out, because the lack of faith, atheism is a failure. A failure that means sorrow. Atheists don't understand that sin is the supreme sadness and they die within this sin. They try to find the way out, the exit but not from sin, but from secundary things: poverty, physical suffering, etc... Only because someone got away from poverty, for example, it doesn't mean they are happy, just look at most of the "superstars" today, they are lost in drugs, sex, alcohol, lust and poor behaviour, what kind of happiness is this? No kind, this is eternal death, the true happiness is only at God.

Countless people are living happily without religion, so this statement appears to be false on the face of it. Religion is not a prerequisite to happiness.

 

[bhsmte]

Countless people are living happily without religion, so this statement appears to be false on the face of it. Religion is not a prerequisite to happiness.

All one has to do is look at the countries across the world that have higher qualities of life; education, health, low crime, etc..

Most of them, have a high percentage of non believers.

 

[Eudaimonist]

Atheists often argue with believers: "If you have so many faiths (even in Christianity) then it means there is no God because everyone sees Him in His own manner".

I have never seen that argument. What I see is an epistemological challenge: how does one know about God if other theists claim to know a different God? That's quite a bit different.

Every faith in this world show that we are trying to find an exit, a way out, that we are trying to find God, the fountain of life. Only the lack of faith, the atheism fails into trying to find the exit, the way out, because the lack of faith, atheism is a failure.

That assumes that the "exit" exists. If it doesn't exist, then atheism is a success, and faith is a failure.

Atheists don't understand that sin is the supreme sadness and they die within this sin.

I do not experience anything even remotely close to supreme sadness.

They try to find the way out, the exit but not from sin, but from secundary things: poverty, physical suffering, etc...

I try to take care of my physical needs just like anybody else, but that is not out of trying to find an "exit", whatever that means.

Only because someone got away from poverty, for example, it doesn't mean they are happy, just look at most of the "superstars" today, they are lost in drugs, sex, alcohol, lust and poor behaviour, what kind of happiness is this?

I agree with you. That is short-sighted. I don't see what that has to do with atheists.

I personally drink alcohol in moderation, don't do drugs, have a selective sex life, and don't do anything that most people would regard as "poor behavior".

I don't seek an "exit" from pain. I seek good character, wisdom, and the sort of achievements in life from which I can earn self-respect.

No kind, this is eternal death, the true happiness is only at God.

You have no idea what you are talking about.


eudaimonia,

Mark

 

[GrimKingGrim]

I am getting tired of reading the "people with other religions" arguments.

It's a credible argument. Are they right too?

This is because we are sinners and we get lost, we follow the wrong paths

Because you sincerely believe something?

People trying to look for God is something very good, it is bad if they don't look for Him

Looked for a couple years. Didn't find him.

every studied path or religion has it's own truth but blessed be the man who finds the fullness of the truth.

Oh okay, no true Scotsmans.

Atheists often argue with believers

Get used to it

"If you have so many faiths (even in Christianity) then it means there is no God because everyone sees Him in His own manner"

Nooooooooooo. That's a poor representation of the argument. It means there's a low probability of you all being RIGHT. Considering the jarring differences of every holy text and how wrong they are compared to reality. None of them seem right and every single god has yet to be proven right.

Every faith in this world show that we are trying to find an exit, a way out, that we are trying to find God, the fountain of life.

That's a streeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeetch because there's Satanism, Wicca (I think), and probably several traditionals that are different.

the atheism fails into trying to find the exit

And not playing Golf fails to hit a hole in one.

atheism is a failure

It's not seeking to accomplish anything so how can you make that statement? However we are starting to reclaim the world. 16.4% of the world population doesn't associate with religion. (Source:http://www.globalreligiousfutures.org/religions/unaffiliated) And 25% of America specifically are skeptics/atheist/agnostic. (Source: https://www.barna.org/barna-update/culture/713-2015-state-of-atheism-in-america#.VTlJgCFVhHx)

So for something that has no goal we're accomplishing a good deal.

A failure that means sorrow.

No.

Atheists don't understand that sin is the supreme sadness and they die within this sin.

I don't die taking a medicine for an illness I do not have, sonny.

They try to find the way out, the exit but not from sin, but from secundary things: poverty, physical suffering, etc.

It's because we know this is the only life we have and that what happens at death is death. And living in those things suck. We like to LIVE!

nly because someone got away from poverty, for example, it doesn't mean they are happy, just look at most of the "superstars" today, they are lost in drugs, sex, alcohol, lust and poor behaviour, what kind of happiness is this?

Oh my you managed to form a credible point. They generally aren't the most educated bunch. And those who are are a bit more well behaved. But just because you're rich doesn't mean your problems go away. Too many are internally conflicted so yea you're right here.

However I can tell you my parents no longer live in the poverty of Brooklyn, New York. Gotta tell you, they're not ill-behaved. Your argument has an incredible big sample size so it spreads itself so thin that it holds no weight. It's just common knowledge.

No kind, this is eternal death, the true happiness is only at God.

I'm happy now. I don't care about God other than to discuss.

 

[agua]

...

I stated how this message - in whatever form - is often used to shame, browbeat and diminish unbelievers. I said, several times, that this was what I consider "offensive"....


And thus the blinders go up again, not being able to understand other persons, the Christians retreat into "I know exactly what you think" position again.

It's good that you're offended by the Message of the Cross, whichever form it takes to you.

I don't know what you think the message of the Cross is, because you haven't told me.

Would you rather only have professed Christians on this site? You do know, there are Christian only parts of this site, where atheists can not post?

No; I was addressing another issue that this Website promotes. I mostly use/used the open access forums for specific reason.

And by the way, some of the most vicious debates on this site, are between Christians debating theology, not between non believers and Christians.

This may be true, but you won't have found me in the vicious theology debates, for a specific reason. In saying this Bhsmte it has come time for me to move on, and redeem the time in other matters. I've appreciated our contact and discussions and wish you well in whatever your time brings.

And now if you'll join me in a small refrain. Time has come to say goodbye to all the family ... emm eye see kay eee why emm ohh you ess eeeeee.

God bless.

 

[Freodin]

It's good that you're offended by the Message of the Cross, whichever form it takes to you.

I don't know what you think the message of the Cross is, because you haven't told me.

My own opinion.
What I get from Christians.
What I am offended about in regard the Christians 'spreading' the 'message of the cross' (though in your case, it is rather hiding it)
What I am offended about right now in regard to... you

It takes quite a lot of effort to get so many things wrong in the two short statements you made. So much effort that I do not think this was an accident.

You know what people are called who deliberately tell untruths about others. You know what your own religion says about this behaviour.

You should reconsider your approach.

 

[Davian]

Fair question Davian, but if I may I'd like to clarify the analogy and it's elements as I intend them, first.

1. Yes life is the boat.
2. The lifeboat is Yahweh ( not my religion or anyone else's ), and the Blood of Christ guarantees its safe passage.

What about that is not religion?

The resurrection and judgement is future, and this naturarlly implies that we can't test nor see it, until it happens aside from the Biblical accounts of Jesus' death and resurrection. Jesus resurrection also doesn't clearly show us the judgement, but simply Yahweh's ability to raise the dead.

You are trying to sell me this lifeboat, and I have to take your hand-waving assurances that it even exists? What is it made of? Where was it made? Is it powered by perpetual motion machines, so that it never needs refuelling, repair, or maintenance? Does it have that high-tech paint that makes it invisible but plainly seen?

You have nothing?

To accept that the resurrection is true you will need to believe God exists and search for Him, then He will help you find Him and He will reveal to you the ceratinty of His lifeboat ( any many other things ). You will come to trust Him and His methods of revelation because your own experiences will be congruent and be validated by both personal experiences and revelation and scripture if necessary. This becomes experential faith.

Or, an exercise in self-deception. That would correlate with all of the evidence at hand.

Also you will find some surprising things about yourself, that you likely do not currently know.

Indeed, like how gullible I am, or not.

 

[bhsmte]

My own opinion.
What I get from Christians.
What I am offended about in regard the Christians 'spreading' the 'message of the cross' (though in your case, it is rather hiding it)
What I am offended about right now in regard to... you

It takes quite a lot of effort to get so many things wrong in the two short statements you made. So much effort that I do not think this was an accident.

You know what people are called who deliberately tell untruths about others. You know what your own religion says about this behaviour.

You should reconsider your approach.

Nailed it!!!

 

[TillICollapse]

I just had a thought, somewhat related to the topics ...

confusion or cognitive dissonance = spiritual mysticism

That is to say, that a generic "believer" may actually recognize circular reasoning, or a confusing or contradictory idea or argument ... as BEING the "spiritual mystical knowledge" itself. The dissonant gap gets filled with a belief: this belief, when/if brought under scrutiny or compared to other ideas may reveal inconsistency or contradiction or a confusing foundation or questions. It is *this* confusing nature of the belief which then gets identified as "spiritual truth" or mystical idea. It's the very confusion itself. It's not the idea per se, but the confusing/unclear/perhaps contradictory or incomplete/inconsistent nature of the idea. The dissonant gap would otherwise remain dissonant. And this then resolves the dissonance that the confusion may bring, because now the confusion itself is identified as being spiritual-mystical in nature. The confusion itself is a type of knowledge and wisdom, just esoteric.

"It's not confusing, you just don't understand it is all. It's spiritual. You just believe it."

 

[Wryetui]

After all, faith is a gift, you can't own it by yourself, you have to ask to the Father in order to receive it. I doubt you were "trying to find God" or "been a christian X years", if you really were, you wouldn't be unbelievers now If you ever want to find God, just remember this:

"God opposes the proud but shows favor to the humble."