Yes, but what if we are not wrong?

[Wryetui]

You have no discernible proof of any God at all, nor of what Jesus did or didn't do. You rely on belief that it happened, not knowledge that it happened.

If you were to be Hindu, you'd believe in stories of prophets long before Christ who did miraculous things. Makes more logical sense to believe in those, IMO. They're older prophets, and are attributed things just as miraculous as Jesus.

By the same standards of proof, Hinduism is the logical choice. Why aren't you Hindu?

It's because you weren't brought up in a Hindu environment, you were brought up in a Christian one. Conditioning and circumstance.

Examples, please.

 

[Wryetui]

Hm... I did ask for Divine Revelation... and I got a Divine Revelation that is completely different from yours.

How do you think this is possible?

You were deceived believing what you wanted, not what Christ wanted. If so, you would be believing in Him. You were most likely demonic deceived.

 

[Wryetui]

Making reason pointless. The brain as an unneeded organ. Religion as mindlessness. Truth as an arbitrary choice of religious views.


eudaimonia,

Mark

Yes, look what your perfectly rational brain did to you, you are living without God in the road of eternal damnation, that happens when you trust yourself instead of God. If you don't understand God or religion, don't try to reduce it with your rationalism which is limitated like all of us, better ask God about it.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Yes, look what your perfectly rational brain did to you, you are living without God in the road of eternal damnation, that happens when you trust yourself instead of God. If you don't understand God or religion, don't try to reduce it with your rationalism which is limitated like all of us, better ask God about it.

If it doesn't make sense, don't try to reason through it? Is that your suggestion?

 

[Archaeopteryx]

You were deceived believing what you wanted, not what Christ wanted. If so, you would be believing in Him. You were most likely demonic deceived.

How do you know you aren't being deceived by a demon? You seem to have no trouble claiming that others are being deceived by demons, so what makes you immune?

 

[Wryetui]

How do you know you aren't being deceived by a demon? You seem to have no trouble claiming that others are being deceived by demons, so what makes you immune?

Maybe because I believe in Christ? Where Christ is alive, demons can't enter, like darkness cannot exist where there is light. Christ is inside me through His Holy Eucharist and through Confession, two sacraments by which Christ's grace comes in.

The pharisees said to Christ exactly what you are saying to me 2000 years ago, that He's working with demons and that they don't believe it, it's called blasphemy to the Holy Spirit.

 

[Freodin]

You were deceived believing what you wanted, not what Christ wanted. If so, you would be believing in Him. You were most likely demonic deceived.

Say, why do you even try?

You started this thread, trying to initiate a communication with others. (Or so I hope.)

But you don't have anything to offer other than "just accept what I say". You can provide no reasons to do so - and you scorn reason. You can offer no proof or evidence - and you despise rationalism.

You have nothing - absolutely nothing - beyond "I am right and you are wrong." That's preschool level communication skills!

You know for yourself that you wouldn't accept such an approach... that you do not accept such an approach.

So why should we?

 

[Wryetui]

If it doesn't make sense, don't try to reason through it? Is that your suggestion?

I didn't say that at all! Do you think all the christians are reasonless and brainless? LOL
I said that reason is not the only thing you need to have faith, in fact, if you need reason or proof you don't need faith, how can you have faith in something proved by reason? Then you must believe it, there no other choice if it has been proved. I am saying that all you do to "search" for God is reason and rationalism, instead of asking Him for divine revelation with a humble heart.

In the Orthodox faith we put the accent on prayer, contemplation and revelation. So, you can't start thinking with your impure mind about God because you will most likely end up lost (here I'm not referring to anyone in this thread but to all of us), but you fast, pray to God, be humble and God will share His light to you so you can discover the deepest meanings of Him.
I personally think it works. That's why those who invented rationalism are today considered heretics (their own church named them that way), even Origen fell in heresy while St. Gregory Palamas gave to us pearls of faith.

 

[Freodin]

I didn't say that at all! Do you think all the christians are reasonless and brainless? LOL
I said that reason is not the only thing you need to have faith, in fact, if you need reason or proof you don't need faith, how can you have faith in something proved by reason? Then you must believe it, there no other choice if it has been proved. I am saying that all you do to "search" for God is reason and rationalism, instead of asking Him for divine revelation with a humble heart.

In the Orthodox faith we put the accent on prayer, contemplation and revelation. So, you can't start thinking with your impure mind about God because you will most likely end up lost (here I'm not referring to anyone in this thread but to all of us), but you fast, pray to God, be humble and God will share His light to you so you can discover the deepest meanings of Him.
I personally think it works. That's why those who invented rationalism are today considered heretics (their own church named them that way), even Origen fell in heresy while St. Gregory Palamas gave to us pearls of faith.

But if you do what you propose - fast, pray, be humble, ask for revelation - and get to a different result, then you are "demonic deceived".

Basically, if you don't start with the right "faith", you won't be able to get the right faith.
Add to that your belief that you are magically protected from being wrong by "the sacraments"... and you have no way to be able to exit from your delusion.

You know that every heretic thinks he has the right faith and everyone else is the heretic?

 

[Wryetui]

But if you do what you propose - fast, pray, be humble, ask for revelation - and get to a different result, then you are "demonic deceived".

Basically, if you don't start with the right "faith", you won't be able to get the right faith.
Add to that your belief that you are magically protected from being wrong by "the sacraments"... and you have no way to be able to exit from your delusion.

You know that every heretic thinks he has the right faith and everyone else is the heretic?

Yes, if that doesn't leads you to Christ, it's not from God.
You can come to the right faith everytime you want. Stop saying people always claim their faith is the right one and start researching yourself.
If you don't know what are the Sacraments don't talk about them, you are just showing your ignorance.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Yes, if that doesn't leads you to Christ, it's not from God.
You can come to the right faith everytime you want. Stop saying people always claim their faith is the right one and start researching yourself.
If you don't know what are the Sacraments don't talk about them, you are just showing your ignorance.

Why should he stop saying that when it is obvious to anyone who has ever conversed with people of different faiths? You insist you're right. Someone of a different faith insists that they're right and that you're wrong, and on it goes. You haven't given us any reason to believe your claims ahead of theirs.

 

[YESLORDIWILL]

Wryetui, I love that your focus is on humility.

 

[Wryetui]

Human rationalism, that's what I was talking about, it's almost always an obstacle between him and God.
Every Philokalic saint and father said that. It can be felt on your own skin.
A human going from reason to the Logos, to Christ it must be done as we know: through ascetism, and that's possible only when you have a clear heart, as the Bible says and only when in your heart the love for Christ is burning like a wildfire. When what's burning is reason and rationalism it happens what our fore-runner did, Judas.
If a man really wants to be wise, rationalism and reason is not what he needs, he needs to set those on fire, to go crazy into Christ. Look what the Bible says: "Don’t fool yourselves. Whoever thinks they are wise in this world should become a fool. That’s the only way they can be wise."

God loves those who become like little children, as He said. The kid is not rational nor irrational, he doesn't care about the things of this world, he lets those to the "big" ones, but his heart, His heart is full of love, full of precious love, that's why they are always happy.
Us, in the other hand, the "rational" people, we get stucked in our reason building mountains between us and God, we don't see Him as we should anymore, we don't sing to Him, we don't write to Him, we don't live Him and we then cry because we don't knwo Him...

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Human rationalism, that's what I was talking about, it's almost always an obstacle between him and God.
Every Philokalic saint and father said that. It can be felt on your own skin.
A human going from reason to the Logos, to Christ it must be done as we know: through ascetism, and that's possible only when you have a clear heart, as the Bible says and only when in your heart the love for Christ is burning like a wildfire. When what's burning is reason and rationalism it happens what our fore-runner did, Judas.
If a man really wants to be wise, rationalism and reason is not what he needs, he needs to set those on fire, to go crazy into Christ. Look what the Bible says: "Don’t fool yourselves. Whoever thinks they are wise in this world should become a fool. That’s the only way they can be wise."

What horrible advice. You are basically making a virtue out of credulousness and demanding that people suspend critical thought to give a free pass to dogma.

 

[Wryetui]

What horrible advice. You are basically making a virtue out of credulousness and demanding that people suspend critical thought to give a free pass to dogma.

Then don't do it and go ahead living without God and dying without Him.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Then don't do it and go ahead living without God and dying without Him.

You don't do it when it comes to the claims of other religions, so why expect us to do it for your religion?

 

[Wryetui]

Because those other religions didn't promise me salvation, Christ did so I follow Him.

 

[Archaeopteryx]

Because those other religions didn't promise me salvation, Christ did so I follow Him.

What are you talking about? Yes they do. They promise you salvation.

 

[Wryetui]

Not the way Christ did. And their "God" didn't come among us to preach and affirm what He did.

 

[Freodin]

Not the way Christ did. And their "God" didn't come among us to preach and affirm what He did.

Well, their God (where appropriate) did. And "he" did come among us to preach and affirm and explain... in quite the same way as "your God" did.

That is... he didn't come among "us" - us as we are right now speaking here - at all. He assertedly came to people far away a long time ago.

You accept one story. You don't accept a different story. So why can't you understand why we don't accept your story as well?