YECs and Tar Pits

[RickG]

45

Like I said, can you provide archeological evidence that there were any Hebrew slaves in Egypt during the time of Ramses? And as for the comment "history taking a hike, well", doesn't that include the bible?

 

[troodon]

Are these layers of material different for each epoch? Are the layers identified more by the composition of the strata or the fossils they contain?

They're identified by a suite of criteria including but not limited to: lithology, fossil content, placement within local or regional stratigraphy, and absolute age. It doesn't really matter for the point I'm trying to make. The Moenkopi Formation and the Chinle Formation in northern Arizona, for instance, are comprised of similar types of rocks (mostly mudstone with some sandstones, but they're different colors so you can tell the formations apart) and the latter was deposited directly on top of the former, yet they share absolutely no fossil organisms. There is no explanation for that under a YEC paradigm.

 

[OldWiseGuy]

They're identified by a suite of criteria including but not limited to: lithology, fossil content, placement within local or regional stratigraphy, and absolute age. It doesn't really matter for the point I'm trying to make. The Moenkopi Formation and the Chinle Formation in northern Arizona, for instance, are comprised of similar types of rocks (mostly mudstone with some sandstones, but they're different colors so you can tell the formations apart) and the latter was deposited directly on top of the former, yet they share absolutely no fossil organisms. There is no explanation for that under a YEC paradigm.

I'm an OEC, but I still have questions.

 

[Strathos]

If they are not found there, how do you know they inhabited the same ranges and occupied the same ecological niches?

Because we can see either their remains or their living bodies in the same area as the tar pits, and their morphology and behaviors fit the same niches as the ancient animals.

 

[AV1611VET]

If you think the earth was created 6-10,000 years ago, then you're a YEC.

Again, you left the qualifier off; and I submit that's indicative of a mental block.

You certainly won't admit I claim a 4.57 billion year old earth exists, so you have to make up a 6000 year old earth, don't you?

 

[AV1611VET]

Like I said, can you provide archeological evidence that there were any Hebrew slaves in Egypt during the time of Ramses?

No-- am I supposed to?

 

[AV1611VET]

Except animals from before and after that period that inhabited the same ranges and occupied the same ecological niches are not found there...

Because we can see either their remains or their living bodies in the same area as the tar pits, and their morphology and behaviors fit the same niches as the ancient animals.

Make up my mind, will you?

 

[juvenissun]

I was thinking about tar pits, recently, and did a little digging about them.

Tar pit - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tar pits are interesting natural occurrences, where subterranean bitumen leaks to surface and creates a giant lake of deadly asphalt. Anything that gets stuck in these lakes is pretty much dead - animals can't get out, they die of exposure and starvation, they die, they sink. Someone one more knowledgeable like RickG can correct me if I'm wrong, but that's my basic understanding.

What's interesting here is that it basically makes tar pits sort of a fossil maker. We've found about a million fossils thanks to them.

https://student.societyforscience.org/article/south-americas-sticky-tar-pits

But the funny thing is, we don't just find ANY fossils in these things, we find fossils from the Pleistocene epoch and upwards. This makes sense in an old earth - the traps only formed in the Pleistocene Epoch, so naturally, only animals that lived during that time would get caught in them.

In a young-earth, though, I'm curious how this would work. Why, out of the millions of animals caught in these traps, are there only animals we find in Pleistocene strata and upwards? Why have we never found any dinosaurs or animals that are often found with dinosaurs in this strata? No T-Rexs, no compsognathus, no triceratops. To the best of my knowledge, nothing like that has ever been found in a tar pit - why is that?

It seems you have lost your grip on this thread. Let me bring it back to you:

Do you know why can't you find a tar pit older than Pleistocene age? This is a key question which could provide a precise answer to your question in the OP.

 

[Queller]

I didn't say that, did I?

Please read for comprehension. I specifically said you were implying that, which you were. If I had wanted to say you said something, I would have used those words instead.

You don't get it, do you?

Here's part of the OP again:

You're dating the tar pits from what is found in them, and dating what is found in them by the tar pits.

False. Plain and simply wrong.

The argument is based on the assumption that no human, no rabbits, and no barbecue grills or automobiles have been found in these tar pits.

False. The problem is that there are no dinosaurs of any kind in any of the tar pits. The question is why not?

And that's assuming scientists would even report something found therein that goes against evolution.

Ah yes, the great evil, scientific conspiracy that completely ignores the fact that someone that made a find that overturned even part of evolutionary theory would be an instant candidate for grants and award, not to mention fame as thousands of other scientists would want to take up this new field. You really should build your tin foil hat with the shiny side out. When you build it with the shiny side in, it amplifies the government mind control rays.

 

[RickG]

It seems you have lost your grip on this thread. Let me bring it back to you:

Do you know why can't you find a tar pit older than Pleistocene age? This is a key question which could provide a precise answer to your question in the OP.

I don't think the OP is talking about the age of tar pits, rather the ones we are getting fossils from are no older (the fossils that is) than Pleistocene age. For a young earth to be true (6-10 ka), we would expect to find animals from all geologic periods.

 

[RickG]

You're dating the tar pits from what is found in them, and dating what is found in them by the tar pits.

No, just the bones and wood in the tar pit are being dated. The oldest bones and wood would indicate the oldest known relative age of the pit. Sorry to sink your circular reasoning ship, but that's life.

BTW, in the La Brae tar pits the oldest remains dated are around 55 Ka, but most are much less.

 

[AV1611VET]

No, just the bones and wood in the tar pit are being dated. The oldest bones and wood would indicate the oldest known relative age of the pit. Sorry to sink your circular reasoning ship, but that's life.

BTW, in the La Brae tar pits the oldest remains dated are around 55 Ka, but most are much less.

So what's the problem then?

Do you want YECs to explain why bone and wood date to 55,000 years ago; or do you want YECs to explain why only certain animals are found therein, and not others?

Of the two, which, in your opinion, would be easier to argue against YEC?

55,000 year old bones found therein? or the types of animals not found therein?

 

[AV1611VET]

Dinosaurs missing from the tar pits does seem to be a conundrum for the YEC point of view.

Why?

Were dinosaurs expected to go sloshing around in asphalt lakes?

Looks to me like they were smart enough to avoid them -- unlike the scientists today, who think they should not have.

Dinosaurs:1
Scientists: 0

 

[Paul of Eugene OR]

Why?

Were dinosaurs expected to go sloshing around in asphalt lakes?

Looks to me like they were smart enough to avoid them -- unlike the scientists today, who think they should not have.

Dinosaurs:1
Scientists: 0

I've heard lots about dinosaurs. I've learned they came in all sizes, filled many niches.

I've never heard anybody say they were smarter than mammals. Usually, as far as smarts go, people point to their tiny brains.

Human beings are supposedly pretty smart, as far as critters of earth go .. and they get into quicksand and other such traps from time to time.

Dinosaurs weren't necessarily very stupid, but to achieve absolute perfection in never getting trapped in pits that took in saber tooth tigers, elephants, horses, creatures like that?

Only previous extinction explains their absence.

REALITY - 1
AV1611 - 0

 

[AV1611VET]

I've heard lots about dinosaurs. I've learned they came in all sizes, filled many niches.

I've never heard anybody say they were smarter than mammals. Usually, as far as smarts go, people point to their tiny brains.

Human beings are supposedly pretty smart, as far as critters of earth go .. and they get into quicksand and other such traps from time to time.

Dinosaurs weren't necessarily very stupid, but to achieve absolute perfection in never getting trapped in pits that took in saber tooth tigers, elephants, horses, creatures like that?

Only previous extinction explains their absence.

REALITY - 1
AV1611 - 0

"Well ... if this is the explanation you want me to accept, then I have one piece of advice for those guys who have shut the door on saying these lakes are indicative of evolution.

A piece of advice I've been giving here for over eight years:

Spoiler: advice

Keep looking.

 

[Strathos]

Make up my mind, will you?

Reading comprehension, please. I said the modern and older remains in the same general area are not found in the tar pits at the same depth and level of decomposition.

 

[AV1611VET]

Reading comprehension, please. I said the modern and older remains in the same general area are not found in the tar pits at the same depth and level of decomposition.

Perhaps the line between "modern" and "older" isn't as long, eh?

 

[RickG]

So what's the problem then?

You made a circular reasoning claim. That claim is invalid.

Do you want YECs to explain why bone and wood date to 55,000 years ago; or do you want YECs to explain why only certain animals are found therein, and not others?

It's not my thread. I'm just correcting mistakes.

 

[RickG]

"Well ... if this is the explanation you want me to accept, then I have one piece of advice for those guys who have shut the door on saying these lakes are indicative of evolution.

A piece of advice I've been giving here for over eight years:

Spoiler: advice

Keep looking.

These lakes are indicative of evolution? Am I missing something? What has a tar pit have to do with evolution?

 

[juvenissun]

I don't think the OP is talking about the age of tar pits, rather the ones we are getting fossils from are no older (the fossils that is) than Pleistocene age. For a young earth to be true (6-10 ka), we would expect to find animals from all geologic periods.

You are really confused.