YEC: Speed of Light and distant galaxies

[miamited]

Hi 98,

It seems obvious that you want to believe what you have convinced yourself is the truth. Honestly, that's how we all determine what we believe to be true. The question is today, just as it was in the days of Pilate, "What is truth?"

I choose to believe that God has given us the truth about the days of His creating this realm. I choose to believe that He created it just as He said, in the time that He says. However, I do believe this based on 'evidence' that I find credible and applicable to this question. As I have explained, for me, God said days and then defined each day as consisting of an evening and a morning. He established the law of the Sabbath based on that same simple example. Finally, having taken in all of the Scriptures, I believe that I understand what God is doing. Why He created this realm. I believe that God created this realm so that He could get to the last two chapters of the Revelation of Jesus.

Based on that understanding of the 'why' God created this realm, then there really isn't any reason for me to even contemplate that He is some God who needed or used billions and millions of years of 'dead' universal time and then some more millions of years of 'living' earthly time to get to His purpose. He merely spoke this realm into existence as a perfect realm of life as a place where man could live and learn about Him and His Son and what they held for mankind, so that in a few thousand years He would harvest the crop. He planted man on the earth and nurtured him and fed him and taught him, and in the end God is going to harvest the 'good' crop and store it in His barn. The culls and the weeds will all be raked over into a pile and burned. From that day forward there will be no more death or sorrow, suffering or tears. For in the day that God realizes the goal of all His work, He will be our God and we will be His people.

As I understand the Scriptures, that's what God created this realm for. He did it near instantly for His pleasure and purpose and His goal will not go unfulfilled. Now, each is free to believe what he has convinced himself in his heart is the truth. What someone else believes will have no bearing on whether or not I receive God's salvation, nor does what I believe have any bearing on whether or not someone else receives their salvation. Ultimately, it will all boil down to those who have loved Jesus and have had their names written in the Lamb's Book of Life. For whosoevers name is not found in the book of life will be cast into the pit. That's it! There is nothing more.

However, I do believe that those whose names are so written; those who love Jesus; those who have believed God, will know the truth.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[USCGrad90]

So there are galaxies so far away that it would take billions of years for the light to reach us. This light and time is also scientifically measured. So how can a YEC argument stand against this?

First - I believe God make things to work a certain way for a reason, but that there are some things we as humans will never understand due to our limited perception and point of view.
Second - It seems like everytime scientists set upon a fixed theory for things - they find something else that alters their perception.

One important item to note is that while many scientists believed that the expansion of the universe was slowing down, recent observations support that universal expansion may actually be accelerating. This totally alters the theories of the Big Bang and nature of the universe in general and may do more to support creation theory than what scientists have thought in the past.

So, to address your question, assuming that the speed of light is constant (which there is some debate on) we must consider whether or not the nature of spacetime is constant.
1) The relative distance between us and the stars has been shown to NOT be constant.
2) The effect or perception of time on Earth versus other places in the universe is also NOT the same.
So even if light moves at a constant - the variability of time and distance could explain why light gets here in a relatively short amount of Earth-time, as perceived by us.

I am not certain this is a good explanation and there are many technical discussions of this out there that go into greater detail. I also don't worry too much about trying to explain it, since I know that there are many things out of my reach of understanding. I leave it up to God to take care of the details...

 

[classicalhero]

So there are galaxies so far away that it would take billions of years for the light to reach us. This light and time is also scientifically measured. So how can a YEC argument stand against this?

You are making assumptions about the universe that you shouldn't be making, plus evolution has their own problems regarding light. Horizon problem - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

But from our point of view, the heavens would have been filled in an instant, because God is a miraculous God and doesn't need to explain to man how he did things.

 

[SeventhValley]

All sciences point to a old earth. Could God have rolled out history mid way? Yea he could have.

Either way science works on the how. Faith on the why.

Reasons To Believe : Where Modern Science & Faith Converge

This is a good Old Earth web site.

 

[Bluelion]

I think some people have their faith divided. One thing is for sure science is of this world.

 

[SeventhValley]

You can be a Christian and be Old Earth or New Earth none of that really matters.

 

[yeshuaslavejeff]

the world, science, men, lie. old earth lies, evolution, lies.
society lies. government lies. (man's government, religions and political and other).

trust Yhwh, the Creator.

or trust men, the creation.

be blessed.

or be cursed.

live.

or die.

Ecclesiastes 7:29 (GNT) | In Context | Whole Chapter

29 This is all that I have learned: God made us plain and simple, but we have made ourselves very complicated.

Ecclesiastes 7:29 (AMP) | In Context | Whole Chapter

29 Behold, this is the only [reason for it that] I have found: God made man upright, but they [men and women] have sought out many devices [for evil].

Ecclesiastes 7:29 (CEB) | In Context | Whole Chapter

29 See, this alone I found: God made human beings straightforward, but they search for many complications.

Ecclesiastes 7:29 (CJB) | In Context | Whole Chapter

29 This is the only thing I have found,
that God made human beings upright,
but they have devised many schemes.

Ecclesiastes 7:29 (CEV) | In Context | Whole Chapter

29 I did learn one thing: We were completely honest when God created us, but now we have twisted minds.

 

[Bluelion]

You can be a Christian and be Old Earth or New Earth none of that really matters.

True some people have more faith than others, but really i hate this world. i want as little as possible to do with this world, in-fact, I have not read any other book in my free time apart from the Bible in years. I use to collect rare books on knowledge, secret books, what i found was the Bible has all I ever need to know in it.

But the debate does show a lot about a persons heart and where it is.

 

[miamited]

You can be a Christian and be Old Earth or New Earth none of that really matters.

Hi SV,

Yes, that's true. As I have often pointed out, those standing before Jesus on the day of judgment crying, "Lord, Lord..." seem to have clearly been ones that the world called 'christians'. But, I don't find much evidence in the Scriptures that being a 'christian' is much encouraged, being born again is the oft repeated instruction. John puts it fairly clearly that only those who are born of the Spirit have the right to be called children of God.

Just as the world has made vulgar what it means to be a part of the 'church', so too, being a 'christian'. Have faith in God, for He has given you the true testimony of all that He has done. Science is a construct of man, and as such, is surely only as perfect as man's knowledge will allow it to be. God asks His children to live by faith, and not by sight. Paul writes that man is deceived by that which is falsely called knowledge. That which is hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and the basic principles of this world rather than on Christ. Two things that will take us captive; knowledge that depends on human tradition and knowledge that depends on the basic principles of this world.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

 

[food4thought]

Although I currently lean towards the gap theory, I remember reading a book called "Starlight and Time" that did give a framework that appeared in principal to reconcile YEC with ancient starlight.

 

[OzSpen]

Well now we're talking about wormholes Don't get me wrong, I am not trying to limit God's capabilities within science, but it just seems to me that if we can prove that planets are millions of light-years away, look at the vast damage of the earth and moon over time without record, it would stand to reason that we (fallible humans) have a misunderstanding of what Genesis is telling us. jm2c.

So your premise seems to be that science and its millions of light-years is correct and that fallible human beings need to change their interpretation of Genesis.

But I didn't see any statement of how fallible human beings' assumptions of science need to be reinterpreted. How come?

 

[98cwitr]

So your premise seems to be that science and its millions of light-years is correct and that fallible human beings need to change their interpretation of Genesis.

But I didn't see any statement of how fallible human beings' assumptions of science need to be reinterpreted. How come?

Neither. I can correlate billions of years in the universe's age and Genesis. I dont see a contradiction there. That said, I read gen. 1 and gen. 2 as two separate creation stories. One is the creation of humans, the other is the creation of Adam (thus the Judaic race). I have as much faith that the earth is billions of years old as I have faith that the Bible is a Divinely Inspired writing. Both I believe to be infalliably true...and I await a YEC to PROVE that radio isotope dating is completely errant. By completely, I mean that even if it's off by millions of years, it still proves that some rock on Earth is billions of years old.

Let me also add that there is light from a supernova hitting the earth right now from 13.4 billions years ago, and that has to mean that a star lived and then died, and we are only seeing it's death and not life. Interesting isn't it!

http://scienceblogs.com/startswithabang/2013/08/23/the-most-distant-galaxy-in-the-universe/

 

[KWCrazy]

So there are galaxies so far away that it would take billions of years for the light to reach us. This light and time is also scientifically measured. So how can a YEC argument stand against this?

God could create the lights in the heavens as easily as a painter could put them on a canvas. Is it possible that some galaxies are older than ours? Yep. God made the sun, moon and stars for signs, for seasons and navigation. Perhaps other galaxies too far away to be useful already existed. After all, God IS infinite. None of this, of course, changes the six day creation, and it's entirely possible that all the galaxies in the universe were created on day four. God is just that powerful.

So why would an intelligent person call His holy book mythology and superstition? Not I! My Father created the heavens and the earth in six days. Frankly, I don't much care about other galaxies. they are what they are.

 

[JDMiowa]

Hi 98,

I'm in agreement with Jeff.

As I understand the Scriptures when God created Adam he was a full grown adult male. When God made Eve from his rib, she also was a fully grown adult female. Neither of them passed through infancy and then childhood and those terrible teens until they became adults. Scientifically we know that's impossible.

When God created all the plants of the earth there were trees tall and statuesque swaying in the gentle breezes of the atmosphere and flowers budding from full mature plants on the day that they were created. No one had to go around tossing seeds here and there to cover the dry ground with plants and wait months and years for them to grow to maturity. There was already fruit on the trees for Adam and Eve to eat. Scientifically, that's impossible.

When God created the birds and fish and beasts of the fields they were all grown adult species ready to mate and populate the earth with their young. No wobbly legged calves and young, but all fully matured in their species at the moment each first exemplar came to be. Scientifically that's impossible.

When God created all the stars of the universe for seasons and signs, those signs were just as available to Adam and Eve as they are to us today. As God spoke and commanded and the heaven was filled with a multitude of stars, each one's light was visible across the expanse of the universe at the very moment it was created to any eye that could see through the distance from earth. Scientifically, that's impossible.

That's how I explain the light of the stars and our ability to see them today, even though the creation is likely only about 6,000 years old according to a simple and literal reading of the account of God's days of creating this realm.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

I believe this also.

 

[JoshuaDaryl]

How long was Adam and Eve in the Garden ? Did they have children in the Garden ? I think maybe they did, why else would God word Eves punishment this way ?

Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children

I will greatly multiply thy sorrow, if she had never bore any children, how would she even realize her sorrow was increased, or in another version :

World English Bible
To the woman he said, "I will greatly multiply your pain in childbirth

New Living Translation
Then he said to the woman, "I will sharpen the pain of your pregnancy, and in pain you will give birth.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
He said to the woman: I will intensify your labor pains; you will bear children in anguish.

International Standard Version
He told the woman, "I'll greatly increase the pain of your labor during childbirth. It will be painful for you to bear children,

As we can see he speaks to her as if she understands what he is saying. I suspect they were in the garden for awhile, how long I do not know, as there was no need to keep track of time, they did not age. I suspect these offspring and there offspring and so on may be the people Cain spoke of when God cast him to the world. I can not prove my hypothesis, but it seems logical. With this idea how can one prove the world is just 6 thousand years old, what if Adam and Eve were in the Garden for one thousand years ? The earth would then be 7 thousand years old.

 

[classicalhero]

Neither. I can correlate billions of years in the universe's age and Genesis. I dont see a contradiction there. That said, I read gen. 1 and gen. 2 as two separate creation stories. One is the creation of humans, the other is the creation of Adam (thus the Judaic race). I have as much faith that the earth is billions of years old as I have faith that the Bible is a Divinely Inspired writing. Both I believe to be infalliably true...and I await a YEC to PROVE that radio isotope dating is completely errant. By completely, I mean that even if it's off by millions of years, it still proves that some rock on Earth is billions of years old.

Let me also add that there is light from a supernova hitting the earth right now from 13.4 billions years ago, and that has to mean that a star lived and then died, and we are only seeing it's death and not life. Interesting isn't it!

The Most Distant Galaxy in the Universe – Starts With A Bang

Well lets consider carbon dating and the assumption that the levels of C14 have been constant. But tha is not true and we know it isn't true because we know that atomic testing increased the amount of carbon 14 in the atmosphere, so as a result some modern samples can be dated years in the future, which is impossible, but it means that we haven't achieve equilibrium in the atmosphere, which means we haven't yet been here for tens of thousands of years, since this is the limit before we reach equilibrium n the atmosphere and the ratio of C14 is stale. Radiocarbon Dating and Bomb Carbon | Beta Analytic

But another way of dating is via testing for helium, since we know that U-PB will release 8 atoms of He and if you can detect the amount of diffusion (the rate helium is released from the sample, since Helium is "slippery" n that it is chemically inactive and thus doesn't react to form compounds and thus escapes the material because it is extremely light.) So if you can find out the rate of diffusion you can calculate "the age". If the amount of helium is higher in the material sampled than the outside material, then you know the source of the helium is the sample and not the rocks around it. Helium evidence for a young world continues to confound critics - creation.com

 

[98cwitr]

Why not post from a non-biased site for starters?

Not sure why we're talking about carbon-14 here, because it decays way too fast. I measure the age of rocks most scientists will use the amount of lead in objects to determine the decay of heavy elements like uranium.

Uranium-lead dating - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

 

[Alithis]

A human spirits exists of no material substance
And the eternal state there of is more ageless and vast the the entire outer created universe.

 

[Alithis]

A human spirit exists of no material substance
And the eternal state there of is more ageless and vast then the entire outer created universe.

 

[StephanieSomer]

So there are galaxies so far away that it would take billions of years for the light to reach us. This light and time is also scientifically measured. So how can a YEC argument stand against this?

I just found this thread and read through it and was surprised nobody bothered to actually read and quote Genesis 1. He created light on day 1. Stars were created on day 4. Seems pretty obvious to me that He created the light already in place which would point to the stars He had yet to make so that we could see them even though they are too far away for the light to have reached us yet if that light had not been created first. Was He trying to fool people? Of course not! He was providing us with a view of His greatness by allowing us to see those things which could not possibly yet be seen had He not put the stars light in place beforehand. I see no contradiction in being able to see galaxies billions of light years away and still having a 6,000 year old creation.