Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

[RickReads]

I think if I started a thread asking "what do you think Christian universalism teaches?" a lot of incorrect assumptions would be presented.

Probably the biggest group of objectors are Evangelical Fundamentalists.

I believe incorrect assumptions appear on most threads opened up to opposing views so I`m not sure that`s anything out of ordinary.

 

[Jipsah]

Then I'll reiterate:

No -- universalism rules out freewill.

So? I don't see in MY Bible where it says anything about us being saved by our "free will". You must have one of those custom translations.

 

[AV1611VET]

Wow. There's the twisted logic of Damnationism.

(parody)

"Those who end up in hell chose it." (it's their own fault) and "Universalism forces people into heaven against their will." (God would never do that to us) "But he would incinerate us. And that's fine and dandy. It's what you wanted, right?"

Did it occur to you that they might want Valhalla? Nirvana? annihilated? Shangri-La? and a thousand other places besides Heaven?

 

[AV1611VET]

Not if it's true.

It isn't, though.

Damnationism gives people a false sense of fear. (the reason it was created in the first place.)

Two words: Paschal's wager.

 

[ozso]

To have a legitimate discussion all issues would have to on the table and dealt with rationally. I try to approach issues from a neutral point of view if I`m trying to learn things. In the case of Universalism
I`ve looked for someone who could prove their case. I`ve been disappointed and have found them to engage me unfairly just to try to win the argument.

Many will come unglued at any suggestion of punishment for sin i.e. Steve.

Unfortunately you are a rare breed. It seems most are on a mission to disprove it rather than explore it. So you're likely to automatically get lumped in with them.

 

[AV1611VET]

So? I don't see in MY Bible where it says anything about us being saved by our "free will". You must have one of those custom translations.

John 5:40 And ye will not come to me, that ye might have life.

 

[RickReads]

Unfortunately you are a rare breed. It seems most are on a mission to disprove it rather than explore it. So you're likely to automatically get lumped in with them.

Well, I did explore it. I do find verses that muddy the waters a bit concerning hell. As a consequence, I ceased to have a solid position on the hell issue. My preference is to say I don`t know what God is going to do (Which I don`t). I don`t really relate to hell because I find it a disturbing topic and I don`t expect to go there. I just trust that I will be satisfied with God`s decisions and enjoy the peace of not being involved in it. I find that looking at it that way makes it easier for me to forgive others.

 

[ozso]

Well, I did explore it. I do find verses that muddy the waters a bit concerning hell. As a consequence, I ceased to have a solid position on the hell issue. My preference is to say I don`t know what God is going to do (Which I don`t). I don`t really relate to hell because I find it a disturbing topic and I don`t expect to go there. I just trust that I will be satisfied with God`s decisions and enjoy the peace of not being involved in it. I find that looking at it that way makes it easier for me to forgive others.

I think that's a very sensible approach and it echoes my sentiments as well.

 

[ozso]

I believe incorrect assumptions appear on most threads opened up to opposing views so I`m not sure that`s anything out of ordinary.

No it's not. Although I've found it can be stronger in some areas than others. The doctrine of Free Grace is one of those. The automatic objection to it is that it teaches "having a license to sin" and so on.

 

[Cormack]

Universalism makes a lot of sense so thanks @Cormack for raising the topic.

A definition of grace I like is that there nothing we can do to make God loves us more, and nothing we can do to make God love us less. A few comments have said that universalism isn't biblical but I think the parables of grace like the Prodigal Son, the king who cancels the debt that the servant couldn't possibly pay off and the employer who pays the latecomers the same as the all-day crew do support the idea because they say that we don't have to do anything in order to be accepted by God - saved in other words.

I think the comments about Hitler are natural because we intuitively think that a price has to be paid for such crimes. But if the price has been paid by Jesus on the cross then this moral dilemma between justice and forgiveness has been solved once and for all.

The idea mentioned in this discussion that God would be forcing us to go to Heaven if we don't want to go this overriding our free will don't hold water. If we are created in His image then we are meant to want to be with Him however much we were corrupted like Hitler was while on earth.

I started off hoping that all will be saved but I'm beginning to think we all will be. The simplest argument for it is that it's what God would want because we are His beloved children and He will ultimately achieve His desire.

That’s an impressive overview, @Hmm. I largely agree and find reading your take on the topic really encouraging. Like you the idea that the “moral dilemma between justice and forgiveness” could be fully reconciled in the universalistic sense didn’t occur to me until bouncing around ideas in this topic. We should thank @RickReads for providing that breakthrough due to his intellectual honesty and friendly pushback earlier in the discussion.

 

[Hmm]

We should thank @RickReads for providing that breakthrough due to his intellectual honesty and friendly pushback earlier in the discussion.

Indeed!

I'm not sure how all the extortions in the Bible to be obedient and do good works etc fit in with universalism. But is anyone really going to sit around doing nothing all their life just because they believe we're all saved so it doesn't really matter if we help the poor and outcast because we're all going to get a wonderful reward in the next life? It always seems to me a poor motivation anyway to do these things just because we're commanded to and we're worried about the consequences to our individual salvation if we don't. If universalism is true, our hearts will be lightened and our motivation will be to do good deeds as a natural outflowing of love for such a good God who has paid the price of all our failings.

 

[Saint Steven]

... I have not taken any position on hell other than to trust God to do what's best. ...

You claimed that God has a better system than Universalism. How so?

RickReads said: ↑
You appear too biased on this topic to accept any view that opposes universalism. The most common reason for rejecting universalism seems to be the view that God has a better system that isn't universalism. My answer and many others can be generically included in this category.

 

[Cormack]

You claimed that God has a better system than Universalism. How so?

I’m waiting on an answer myself to that message. The reply that Rick did compose was just an effort to castigate you for your spicy style of debating, and whether or not that’s something valid to take home and consider, it’s also a red herring.

 

[Saint Steven]

Did it occur to you that they might want Valhalla? Nirvana? annihilated? Shangri-La? and a thousand other places besides Heaven?

A rose, by any other name, is still a rose. Everyone hopes to be reconciled to God.
And no one "wants" to be annihilated. (though they might say they do)

 

[Saint Steven]

I’m waiting on an answer myself to that message. The reply that Rick did compose was just an effort to castigate you for your spicy style of debating, and whether or not that’s something valid to take home and consider, it’s also a red herring.

Absolutely. He dodged the question.

Amazing to me that someone would come on this topic and claim there is "a better system" than Universalism. Really?

(sarcasm warning)
Like the God who taught us to love our enemies incinerates his? But that's okay, because he's God. It's not like we could stop him from being a cosmic tyrant. Besides we are free to choose. God loves you, but if you choose not to believe that, he will incinerate you. (spiritual extortion) Thus turning our loving heavenly Father into a gangster godfather. An offer you can't refuse.

 

[Saint Steven]

Well, I did explore it. I do find verses that muddy the waters a bit concerning hell.

What did you say earlier about a Universalism bias? My, my.

You will never understand Christian Universalism by reading Damnationist authors.

Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin

 

[Saint Steven]

I'm not sure how all the extortions in the Bible to be obedient and do good works etc fit in with universalism. ...

You probably meant "exhortations". - lol

 

[Cormack]

Just imagine sarcasm without the trigger warning. The faint hearts and skirt lifting in chat would go through the roof, like there’s a mouse in the kitchen.

Anyway very true, total red herring, not saying it’s intentional but it’s a red herring nonetheless.

If there’s a better system (that’s not grounded in assuming universalism is false from the get go,) let’s be having it.

 

[zoidar]

The issue of hell is a really hard one, but I don't think I would have become a Christian unless we can be lost. I didn't want to be a Christian, you see, but the truth showed me I was on my way downward. The sorrow of missing out on heaven, was a big reason for my repentance.

 

[Saint Steven]

If there’s a better system (that’s not grounded in assuming universalism is false from the get go,) let’s be having it.

Right.
They seem to be avoiding the usual argument that Universalism leaves no room for the justice of God. (not true) But that leaves them inferring that ECT with no hope of escape is justice.