Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

[Clare73]

That’s a very limiting view of God there. I don’t why God couldn’t get everyone saved in a variety of ways while preserving their freewill in tact, presumably not much different from Him saving you.

Following that "logic," God could just have prevented the whole problem in the first place.

Since you assert that God couldn’t get everyone saved without violating their freewill (even in theory!) I’m assuming you have some reason to insist upon that.



It has everything to do with it if you’d stop strawmanning them for five minutes. I mean it’s just silly, if you refuse to interact with the universalists actually theology, then you’re not doing anything meaningful.

 

[AV1611VET]

"Christians-turned-Universalists" isn't how it goes, any more than "Christians-turned-Baptists" would.

If a Christian can turn atheist, a Christian can turn universalist.

 

[Albion]

It's an appropriate answer if the chocolate is poisoned.

I hadn't looked at it that way.

 

[Cormack]

Following that "logic," God could just have prevented the whole problem in the first place.

I don’t see that as being the case, for example, the universalists picture of the fall is based on how most Christians view the fall from grace. It involved freedom of the human will.

It’s not like the fall or the conversion experience (either in this life or the next) is meaningless, rather, since hell has a remedial dimension to it, the journey really matters.

The best example I’ve heard is Jerry Walls comparing a place of restorative punishment to Ebenezer scrooge in a Christmas carol.

Sure God could snap His all powerful fingers and change man into whatever He pleased, but the coming to that place matters. In the same way God preserves genuine freedom for the sake of choices, including the choice to reject Him, to humble ourselves and find His love again.

Scrooge changing is only really meaningful to the reader because it’s a natural change prompted by his real experiences, therefore it’s still really him.

If God just whipped him into a new morally perfect man I’d wonder if that was really him in there.

 

[Clare73]

I don’t see that as being the case, for example, the universalists picture of the fall is based on how most Christians view the fall from grace. It involved freedom of the human will.
It’s not like the fall or the conversion experience (either in this life or the next) is meaningless, rather, since hell has a remedial dimension to it, the journey really matters.
The best example I’ve heard is Jerry Walls comparing a place of restorative punishment to Ebenezer scrooge in a Christmas carol.

Sure God could snap His all powerful fingers and change man into whatever He pleased, but the coming to that place matters. In the same way God preserves genuine freedom for the sake of choices, including the choice to reject Him, to humble ourselves and find His love again.
Scrooge changing is only really meaningful to the reader because it’s a natural change prompted by his real experiences, therefore it’s still really him.
If God just whipped him into a new morally perfect man I’d wonder if that was really him in there.

Why not just prevent the problem in the first place?

I was thinking more of assuring that man could not leave his created state of righteousness, holiness and knowledge of God.

Why anything else?

 

[Cormack]

@Clare73

Not written for you specifically, but it does jump onto your question.
___________
Maybe absorbing the fact that the journey matters would help a lot of traditionalists appreciate the universalist perspective.

In their sense the turning to God might be under painful or mysterious circumstances, attempting to reject the author of life doesn’t sound very pleasant after all, but their painful and mysterious conversion in eternity needn’t be anymore painful or mysterious than some earthly conversion stories you have read here.

The journey matters, hence the right to fall away, and love matters, hence the forever promise of grace that God offers to everyone.

 

[public hermit]

I was thinking more of your noblesse oblige requirements of God. Ever give any thought to

For my thoughts are not your thoughts
neither are your ways my ways.
As the heavens are higher than the earth,
so are my ways higher than your ways,
and my thoughts than your thoughts.
--Isaiah 55:8-9

I completely agree. They are my thoughts, and I admit that. I also agree that God's thoughts and ways are ultimately outside my epistemic ken. And that's why I withhold a firm assertion of what will be the case.

But the desire that all be reconciled is in the image of God who has the same desire. So, I don't think my position, desiring that all be reconciled, is somehow outside the pale, is it?

 

[Cormack]

If the complaint is something like, “If God can save everyone, why couldn’t he stop the fall from ever happening.” I think the easiest answer is that He could have, He just has a fab habit of turning around evil things for good.

I imagine the lives of people in a saved world who had lived through a world of evil would be better than a world that never did.

Take our pick, less naive, more grateful, more loving since we actually have to now make the effort to love, nearer to God in understanding, stronger, braver.

 

[Clare73]

I completely agree. They are my thoughts, and I admit that. I also agree that God's thoughts and ways are ultimately outside my epistemic ken. And that's why I withhold a firm assertion of what will be the case.

But the desire that all be reconciled is in the image of God who has the same desire. So, I don't think my position, desiring that all be reconciled, is somehow outside the pale, is it?

Well, I think Scripture shows God to be totally sovereign (Daniel 4:35, etc., etc., etc.) having no "desires" that are not totally
accomplished. . .in the way the God-breathed Scriptures reveal.

 

[Clare73]

If the complaint is something like, “If God can save everyone, why couldn’t he stop the fall from ever happening.” I think the easiest answer is that He could have, He just has a fab habit of turning around evil things for good.

I imagine the lives of people in a saved world who had lived through a world of evil would be better than a world that never did.

Take our pick, less naive, more grateful, more loving since we actually have to now make the effort to love, nearer to God in understanding, stronger, braver.

Good theology. . .in that it's a better plan for accomplishing his purpose than any other alternative. . .the happy ending thing being a bit weak.

 

[Cormack]

Good theology. . .in that it's a better plan for accomplishing his purpose than any other alternative. . .the happy ending thing being a bit weak.

Aw see, your first draft was much more dignified and valuable. You shouldn’t go back and edit them so often, it shows being too much in your head imo.

Anyways, nice speaking with you (truly)

 

[Clare73]

Which for the sakes of an honest hypothetical you’d have to stop insisting on.

Your hypothetical has an unexamined assumption.

 

[John Mullally]

Well, I think Scripture shows God to be totally sovereign (Daniel 4:35, etc., etc., etc.) having no "desires" that are not totally accomplished. . .in the way the God-breathed Scriptures reveal.

Is that an argument for Universalism?

Peter and Paul flatly state that God does not want any to perish in 2 Peter 3:9 and 1 Timothy 2:4.

2 Peter 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.​

! Timothy 2:2 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,​

 

[Clare73]

Aw see, your first draft was much more dignified and valuable. You shouldn’t go back and edit them so often, it shows being too much in your head imo.

Anyways, nice speaking with you (truly)

Actually, that's not the reason. . .some things exist outside your experience.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

You've made a valuable point there. If Calvinism/predestination denies freewill as the critics always point out, Universalism does the same--by definition. If it were not so, we wouldn't be calling it universalism.

And if we say that God changes everyone's mind after death, we're just spinning out some rationalization that isn't inherent in universal salvation and we're also supposing that this wouldn't be compulsion on God's part instead of permitting free will.

Good observation. Universalism is only an extreme form of Calvinism. Some even believing that the devil and his angels will be saved.

 

[Hmm]

Universalism is making a lot sense

 

[RickReads]

And therein lies the problem, because history shows that it has.

The events you are pointing to do not satisfy the requirements of the prophecy.

Here`s a future event that will.

Revelation 11:15
And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

 

[Hmm]

Universalism makes a lot of sense so thanks @Cormack for raising the topic.

A definition of grace I like is that there nothing we can do to make God loves us more, and nothing we can do to make God love us less. A few comments have said that universalism isn't biblical but I think the parables of grace like the Prodigal Son, the king who cancels the debt that the servant couldn't possibly pay off and the employer who pays the latecomers the same as the all-day crew do support the idea because they say that we don't have to do anything in order to be accepted by God - saved in other words.

I think the comments about Hitler are natural because we intuitively think that a price has to be paid for such crimes. But if the price has been paid by Jesus on the cross then this moral dilemma between justice and forgiveness has been solved once and for all.

The idea mentioned in this discussion that God would be forcing us to go to Heaven if we don't want to go this overriding our free will don't hold water. If we are created in His image then we are meant to want to be with Him however much we were corrupted like Hitler was while on earth.

I started off hoping that all will be saved but I'm beginning to think we all will be. The simplest argument for it is that it's what God would want because we are His beloved children and He will ultimately achieve His desire.

 

[ozso]

If a Christian can turn atheist, a Christian can turn universalist.

The belief in universal reconciliation doesn't replace being a Christian. It's not a form of apostacy. It just means you don't believe in the doctrine of conscious eternal torment. There's even a well known Catholic priest who's a universalist.

"In the first five or six centuries of Christianity there were six theological schools, of which four (Alexandria, Antioch, Caesarea, and Edessa, or Nisibis) were Universalist, one (Ephesus) accepted conditional immortality; one (Carthage or Rome) taught endless punishment of the wicked. Other theological schools are mentioned as founded by Universalists, but their actual doctrine on this subject is not known."

"The Encyclopedia of Religious Knowledge"
by Schaff-Herzog, 1908, volume 12, page 96

 

[Clare73]

The events you are pointing to do not satisfy the requirements of the prophecy.

For your assertion to have any merit, you must demonstrate what does not satisfy the prophecy of Daniel 2:44-45.