Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

[Saint Steven]

No, it isn't.

Not everyone wants Heaven.

Universalism says you're getting it, whether you want it or not.

Wow. There's the twisted logic of Damnationism.

(parody)

"Those who end up in hell chose it." (it's their own fault) and "Universalism forces people into heaven against their will." (God would never do that to us) "But he would incinerate us. And that's fine and dandy. It's what you wanted, right?"

 

[Clare73]

Is that an argument for Universalism?

As much as is Matthew 12:32.

Peter and Paul flatly state that God does not want any to perish in 2 Peter 3:9 and 1 Timothy 2:4.

2 Peter 3:8 But do not forget this one thing, dear friends: With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day. 9 The Lord is not slow in keeping his promise, as some understand slowness. Instead he is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.​

! Timothy 2:2 Therefore I exhort first of all that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in authority, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and reverence. 3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God and one Mediator between God and men, the Man Christ Jesus, 6 who gave Himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time,​

Yes, that is God's revealed will. (Dt 29:29)

 

[Saint Steven]

Universalism gives people a false sense of security.

Not if it's true.

Damnationism gives people a false sense of fear. (the reason it was created in the first place.

Did Jesus die to save us from God?

 

[RickReads]

Over 500 messages in and I’m still waiting on a valid reason to prefer another view over universalism. Honestly, I never expected such a dearth of reasons before making this topic.

“Ma theology is true facts god said so” isn’t the one guys, it’s just not the one.

You appear too biased on this topic to accept any view that opposes universalism. The most common reason for rejecting universalism seems to be the view that God has a better system that isn't universalism. My answer and many others can be generically included in this category.

I think that to be a very valid reason.

 

[Clare73]

You've made a valuable point there. If Calvinism/predestination denies freewill as the critics always point out,

Free will is the ability/power to choose what one prefers, without external force or constraint.

Free will is not the issue in salvation, the issue is the disposition--what one prefers--which governs the will.

God works in the disposition giving one to prefer the things and will of God, and then
one freely and willingly chooses the things of God without external force or constraint--no violation of free will.

God uses man's free will to bring men to himself, he does not violate it. (John 6:65)

Universalism does the same--by definition. If it were not so, we wouldn't be calling it universalism.

And if we say that God changes everyone's mind after death, we're just spinning out some rationalization that isn't inherent in universal salvation and we're also supposing that this wouldn't be compulsion on God's part instead of permitting free will.

 

[ozso]

"Logic," per se, can take a hike.

I'm more interested in the theological, than the logical.

I want what God wants, and although He says it is not His will that any should perish, He still gives us a choice.

Universalism gives people a false sense of security.

Christian universalists believe in Hell, and that it's not a fun place to end up in. They just don't believe it's a place of conscious eternal torment.

 

[Clare73]

.

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Universalism makes a lot of sense so thanks @Cormack for raising the topic.

For that comment to be true one has to deny the scriptures. *see Matthew 7:21; 1 Corinthians 6:9-10; Matthew 7:13-15; 2 Thessalonians 1:6-9; Hebrews 10:26-39 etc etc

 

[ozso]

Over 500 messages in and I’m still waiting on a valid reason to prefer another view over universalism. Honestly, I never expected such a dearth of reasons before making this topic.

“Ma theology is true facts god said so” isn’t the one guys, it’s just not the one.

One of the problems is people addressing the issue while not knowing much if anything about it.

There's usually a lot of ignorant comments in UR threads.

 

[Saint Steven]

I think that to be a very valid reason.

You can't be serious. Yet it seems you are.

You appear too biased on this topic to accept any view that opposes universalism. The most common reason for rejecting universalism seems to be the view that God has a better system that isn't universalism. My answer and many others can be generically included in this category.

So, you are claiming hell is a better system than Universalism? What's better about it?

Is it that it never ends? Does that make hell better?
Is it that it has no purpose? Does that make hell better?
That countless billions of those who have never heard of Christ will end up there? Does that make hell better?
That the atonement wasn't payment enough? Does that make hell better?

What is it?

 

[LoveGodsWord]

Over 500 messages in and I’m still waiting on a valid reason to prefer another view over universalism. Honestly, I never expected such a dearth of reasons before making this topic.

I have not been following the thread but have seen them all before and have had discussions on this topic with you and your friends in other threads. In all of our discussions you have been provided scripture showing why Universalism is a false teaching yet you choose not to see or hear the scriptures relating to this topic that disagree with your teachings. We should all be careful that we do not close our eyes and ears to hearing and seeing Gods' Word. Then the words of Isaiah 6:9-10 quoted by Jesus in Matthew 13:15-16 and Paul in Acts of the Apostles 28:26-27 become applicable. The only valid reason for believing in Universalism is not to believe the very Words of God. Let's be honest now. You have had no intention to change your belief in regards to Universalism since you started the thread so why pretend in your post here that you did? There is no second chances from the gambling lady of Universalism at the second coming as His reward is with him to be given to every man according to what his work shall be *Revelation 22:12.

Something to pray about I guess.

 

[Clare73]

Not if it's true.
Damnationism gives people a false sense of fear. (the reason it was created in the first place.
Did Jesus die to save us from God?

Indeed he did!

He died to save us from the wrath of God (Romans 5:9) and his justice requiring payment of the debt for our sin.

 

[returntosender]

It's simple really. It's not God's plan.
It devides those who are God's from those who aren't. It makes discernment easier.

 

[RickReads]

You can't be serious. Yet it seems you are.


So, you are claiming hell is a better system than Universalism? What's better about it?

Is it that it never ends? Does that make hell better?
Is it that it has no purpose? Does that make hell better?
That countless billions of those who have never heard of Christ will end up there? Does that make hell better?
That the atonement wasn't payment enough? Does that make hell better?

What is it?

Same old huff and puff from you Steve. I have not taken any position on hell other than to trust God to do what's best. I suppose that`s why I find all your assumptions and distortions of statements and scriptures offensive.

You can drive people away from participating in discussions with your unfriendly aggression but such tactics will not prove your case to anyone who might have considered your views. You operate on your own power rather than in the power of the Spirit of Christ and you come across like someone with bitterness issues.

 

[returntosender]

I pray for the op and his congregation.

 

[RickReads]

One of the problems is people addressing the issue while not knowing much if anything about it.

There's usually a lot of ignorant comments in UR threads.

I`m not sure it`s real complicated. Universalism yes or no and any reason for saying no is invalid.
Seems simple enough to me.

 

[RickReads]

Christian universalists believe in Hell, and that it's not a fun place to end up in. They just don't believe it's a place of conscious eternal torment.

The difficulty is in universalist aversion to any suggestion of penalty and punishment for unforgiven sins.
Its proven time and time again to be a major obstacle to having a constructive discussion about it.

 

[ozso]

The difficulty is in universalist aversion to any suggestion of penalty and punishment for unforgiven sins.
Its proven time and time again to be a major obstacle to having a constructive discussion about it.

I suppose it depends on the individual. Some are overly liberal. And I think many in general figure if someone is taking about punishment they're talking about torture.

 

[ozso]

I`m not sure it`s real complicated. Universalism yes or no and any reason for saying no is invalid.
Seems simple enough to me.

I think if I started a thread asking "what do you think Christian universalism teaches?" a lot of incorrect assumptions would be presented.

Probably the biggest group of objectors are Evangelical Fundamentalists.

 

[RickReads]

I suppose it depends on the individual. Some are overly liberal. And I think many in general figure if someone is taking about punishment they're talking about torture.

To have a legitimate discussion all issues would have to on the table and dealt with rationally. I try to approach issues from a neutral point of view if I`m trying to learn things. In the case of Universalism
I`ve looked for someone who could prove their case. I`ve been disappointed and have found them to engage me unfairly just to try to win the argument.

Many will come unglued at any suggestion of punishment for sin.