Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

[ozso]

I wouldn’t be surprised if people said something similar about Caiaphas.

You're being incredibly petulant.

 

[ozso]

Some folks come unglued over the possibility that there might not be everlasting agonizing conscious torment.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Overall. You're just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point.

I’ve based my argument on what scriptures says, not what someone says the scripture says. If Jesus specifically said that not everyone who calls Him Lord will enter the Kingdom of heaven then I’m going to accept that over someone’s commentary of Matthew 21:31. Perhaps those Pharisees will enter Heaven, perhaps they repented later in life, who knows? It still doesn’t eliminate what Jesus said in Matthew 7:21.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You're being incredibly petulant.

I wouldn’t say that, I haven’t resorted to name calling.

 

[Fervent]

That applies equally well to you of course. What you say about death being the end and hell being eternal was not the view held by the early church fathers, at least not universally so - I don't know enough to know which view predominated. Here's Jerome for example:

“In the end or consummation of things, all shall be restored to their original state, and be again united in one body. We cannot be ignorant that Christ’s blood benefited the angels and those who are in hell; though we know not the manner in which it produced such effects. The apostate angels shall become such as they were created; and man, who has been cast out of paradise, shall be restored thither again. And this shall be accomplished in such a way, that all shall be united together by mutual charity, so that the members will delight in each other, and rejoice in each other’s promotion. The apostate angels, and the prince of this world, though now ungovernable, plunging themselves into the depths of sin, shall, in the end, embrace the happy dominion of Christ and His saints.” – COMMENTARY ON THE NEW TESTAMENT – Jerome (347-420 A.D.)

Some obviously don't want to participate in the part I've highlighted lol

I haven't articulated a view on hell, though of course last time I checked Jerome was not a Biblical author. My questions are not because he has a different interpretation of what the Bible says, but that he has entirely abandoned the Bible as authoritative. So where is he drawing his information from?

 

[Fervent]

Thanks.
I hope you don't think this means that I am throwing the Bible away. That is not the case.

Saint Steven said: ↑
That's exactly what the writers of the Bible did. Wrote their views about God. Views from their perspective.

If its not that, then what is it? How can the Bible remain an authority in your life if you simply discard the parts you don't like as the opinions of the authors?

 

[Clare73]

I'm watching an old western where a hanging is about to take place. The preacher prays, "may God have mercy on their poor souls, as He has upon all the faithful departed".

Catholic talk. . .relates to purgatory.

The Catholic Church missionized North America.

I like westerns also, podna'.

 

[Saint Steven]

Right here you are saying that if God’s plan is eternal punishment in the lake of fire you disapprove of this plan. What I’m saying is that if that is in fact God’s plan then I have to trust by knowing His character that He has a reason for this that I do not understand. That’s what I mean by trusting in God.

Really? Let's review the facts.
How can you trust a God that would devise a plan to incinerate the majority of humankind? And think that somehow that sounds like a good idea. We should trust someone with such ambitions. Right?

Were you a big fan of Adolf Hitler?
The problem was that we just didn't trust him, right?

 

[Saint Steven]

Im sorry but what your adding to Matthew 7:21 directly contradicts what Jesus said so I can’t accept that as a possibility.

I knew you would say that.
You asked me to explain what it meant from a UR perspective. That's what I did.

 

[Clare73]

Jesus also said it's impossible for a rich man to enter the Kingdom of Heaven.

Humanly speaking, yes.

He also said, "With God, all things are possible."

 

[Saint Steven]

Im sorry but what your adding to Matthew 7:21 directly contradicts what Jesus said so I can’t accept that as a possibility. As for Matthew 21:31 I don’t see that as meaning that the Pharisees will enter Heaven after tax collectors and prostitutes.

But that's EXACTLY what Jesus said. Wow. ??? !!!
- You refused my explanation of Matthew 7:21 because it wasn't what Jesus said.
- Then you turn around and say that Jesus didn't mean EXACTLY what he said in Matthew 21:31 .
- MAKE UP YOUR MIND!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Clare73]

Really? Let's review the facts.
How can you trust a God

Because trust in God is not based on human reasoning, wisdom or preference, but is by the Holy Spirit, who gives certainty.

 

[Saint Steven]

As for Matthew 21:31 I don’t see that as meaning that the Pharisees will enter Heaven after tax collectors and prostitutes. If I said I would let ISIS into my house before I let you into my house that doesn’t mean that I’m going to let ISIS or you into my house at any point in time.

Wow.
Are you claiming that Jesus was saying he would not let either tax collectors or prostitutes into heaven? - lol


Matthew 21:31 NRSV
Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are going into the kingdom of God ahead of you.

 

[Saint Steven]

If its not that, then what is it? How can the Bible remain an authority in your life if you simply discard the parts you don't like as the opinions of the authors?

I worship the true and living God. Not a man-made book.
It's called bibliolatry.

Take a look at the Faith Chapter. (Hebrews eleven) Did anyone on the list own a Bible?
If you put your library out on the curb on trash day, what would become of your faith?
Kiss it goodbye?

Recommended reading: The Bible Tells Me So... by Peter Enns.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Thanks.
I hope you don't think this means that I am throwing the Bible away. That is not the case.

Saint Steven said: ↑
That's exactly what the writers of the Bible did. Wrote their views about God. Views from their perspective.

 

[Clare73]

I worship the true and living God. Not a man-made book.
It's called bibliolatry.

Jesus was guilty of what you call "bibliolatry."

 

[Fervent]

I worship the true and living God. Not a man-made book.
It's called bibliolatry.

Take a look at the Faith Chapter. (Hebrews eleven) Did anyone on the list own a Bible?
If you put your library out on the curb on trash day, what would become of your faith?
Kiss it goodbye?

Recommended reading: The Bible Tells Me So... by Peter Enns.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Thanks.
I hope you don't think this means that I am throwing the Bible away. That is not the case.

Saint Steven said: ↑
That's exactly what the writers of the Bible did. Wrote their views about God. Views from their perspective.

I do not worship a man-made book, either, and the accusation falls rather flat. The Bible is the means by which God has chosen to reveal Himself to the world, as confirmed by Jesus Christ who made extensive use of the formula "It is written..." in order to justify what He said about God. Yet here, Saint Steven tells me that this book that Jesus quoted as the very words of His father is in fact the words of men. Who am I to believe, you and Peter Enns or Jesus Christ?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Really? Let's review the facts.
How can you trust a God that would devise a plan to incinerate the majority of humankind? And think that somehow that sounds like a good idea. We should trust someone with such ambitions. Right?

Were you a big fan of Adolf Hitler?
The problem was that we just didn't trust him, right?

Im not sure what’s happening here, are you admitting that you don’t trust God or are you trying to compare the actions of Hitler as an illustration of why we can’t trust God? It seems like both. Why would anyone trust Hitler? Is Hitler IN ANY WAY even comparable to God? So I should judge God’s actions as I would judge Hitler’s actions? Is that the point here? I mean that’s what it seems like your saying here is that we should judge God actions by the same measurement that we would judge man’s actions when God’s thoughts, His knowledge, and His LOVE is far beyond what any man is capable of. The difference between you and me is this. I don’t need to know why God chooses to do what He does because I 100% trust Him, you on the other hand have to know that God is acting in compliance of what you consider to be acceptable behavior. I don’t need that because I know that He is acting in compliance of what He considers to be acceptable behavior which is far beyond my standards.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I knew you would say that.
You asked me to explain what it meant from a UR perspective. That's what I did.

I know and I’m sorry that we disagree but don’t hate me brother just because I feel compelled to accept God’s word over man’s. Shouldn’t we all be doing that?

 

[Saint Steven]

If its not that, then what is it? How can the Bible remain an authority in your life if you simply discard the parts you don't like as the opinions of the authors?

But the biggest problem with what you are asking is that there is no consensus about what the Bible says about any subject. So, where is the "biblical authority" in that? How do you determine who is right? Anything beyond the Creeds is a no man's land. And the Creeds aren't even biblical. (not part of the Bible)

 

[BNR32FAN]

Wow.
Are you claiming that Jesus was saying he would not let either tax collectors or prostitutes into heaven? - lol


Matthew 21:31 NRSV
Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are going into the kingdom of God ahead of you.

“Which of the two did the will of his father?” They *said, “The first.” Jesus *said to them, “Truly I say to you that the tax collectors and prostitutes will get into the kingdom of God before you.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭21:31‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

You never answered my question. If I said I will allow ISIS to enter my house before you do you think that means that I will allow you or ISIS to enter my house?