Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

[ozso]

I wouldn’t say that, I haven’t resorted to name calling.

And you better not, you dog faced pony soldier.

 

[RickReads]

Fine, fine. No worries. But do you understand that Jesus WAS saying that tax collectors and prostitutes WERE getting into the kingdom ahead of them? Because the tax collectors and prostitutes were obeying the Father.


Matthew 21:28-31 NRSV
“What do you think? A man had two sons; he went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work in the vineyard today.’ 29 He answered, ‘I will not’; but later he changed his mind and went. 30 The father went to the second and said the same; and he answered, ‘I go, sir’; but he did not go. 31 Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are going into the kingdom of God ahead of you.

Why do you cut out verse 32 which indicates that the publicans and harlots Jesus speaks of repented and became believers through John the Baptist?

 

[ozso]

Why do you cut out verse 32 which indicates that the publicans and harlots Jesus speaks of repented and became believers through John the Baptist?

To paraphrase; the unbelievers will get in after the believers. That's UR in a nutshell.

 

[RickReads]

To paraphrase; the unbelievers will get in after the believers. That's UR in a nutshell.

Yes, but I was referring to what the Bible says. You can`t understand the parable without verse 32.

 

[ozso]

Yes, but I was referring to what the Bible says. You can`t understand the parable without verse 32.

I suppose so, but I figured it mean the tax collectors and prostitutes who received Christ.

 

[RickReads]

I suppose so, but I figured it mean the tax collectors and prostitutes who received Christ.

Yes, but according to Jesus in verse 32 He meant followers of John The Baptist.

 

[ozso]

Yes, but according to Jesus in verse 32 He meant followers of John The Baptist.

What are you getting at?

 

[RickReads]

What are you getting at?

The parable is not a good example for promoting Universal Salvation.

 

[ozso]

The parable is not a good example for promoting Universal Salvation.

Could you fully elaborate on that please?

 

[RickReads]

Could you fully elaborate on that please?

If you consider the whole parable. Verse 32 is the reveal. Publicans and prostitutes who had been converted were going to get into heaven. In the culture of the day, these people were considered the worst of sinners, salvation impossible yet they get in.

The Pharisees who represented the son who didn`t go were not going to make it in at all. Jesus isn`t offering Universal salvation with this parable as the rebellious son only continues to grow in his pride and enmity.

It`s a contrast between the religious and the righteous.

 

[ozso]

If you consider the whole parable. Verse 32 is the reveal. Publicans and prostitutes who had been converted were going to get into heaven. In the culture of the day, these people were considered the worst of sinners, salvation impossible yet they get in.

The Pharisees who represented the son who didn`t go were not going to make it in at all. Jesus isn`t offering Universal salvation with this parable as the rebellious son only continues to grow in his pride and enmity.

It`s a contrast between the religious and the righteous.

Jesus didn't say the Pharisees were not going to make it in at all. He said they would enter afterwards, behind the others.

31 “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are going into the kingdom of God ahead of you.

I don't see how 32 undoes 31.

 

[zoidar]

Jesus didn't say the Pharisees were not going to make it in at all. He said they would enter afterwards, behind the others.

“Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are going into the kingdom of God ahead of you.

So verse 32 can be said to reveal UR.

I don't think Jesus is saying all tax collectors and prostitutes are going to heaven. I think he is saying that they are more fit for heaven than the Pharisees are.

 

[Saint Steven]

Why do you cut out verse 32 which indicates that the publicans and harlots Jesus speaks of repented and became believers through John the Baptist?

That wasn't news to me, only to you, apparently. I cut the passage at the punch line.

Saint Steven said: ↑
Fine, fine. No worries. But do you understand that Jesus WAS saying that tax collectors and prostitutes WERE getting into the kingdom ahead of them? Because the tax collectors and prostitutes were obeying the Father.


Matthew 21:28-31 NRSV
“What do you think? A man had two sons; he went to the first and said, ‘Son, go and work in the vineyard today.’ 29 He answered, ‘I will not’; but later he changed his mind and went. 30 The father went to the second and said the same; and he answered, ‘I go, sir’; but he did not go. 31 Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are going into the kingdom of God ahead of you.

 

[Saint Steven]

Yes, but I was referring to what the Bible says. You can`t understand the parable without verse 32.

That's one of the benefits of UR...

The Bible is much more understandable. - lol

 

[ozso]

I don't think Jesus is saying all tax collectors and prostitutes are going to heaven. I think he is saying that they are more fit for heaven than the Pharisees are.

Verse 32 says they were believers.

31 Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are going into the kingdom of God ahead of you.

32 For John came to you in the way of righteousness and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes believed him; and even after you saw it, you did not change your minds and believe him.

This looks to me like Jesus is telling the unbelieving Pharisees that they will go into the Kingdom. But the believing tax collectors and prostitutes will go in ahead of them.

.

 

[Saint Steven]

If you consider the whole parable. Verse 32 is the reveal. Publicans and prostitutes who had been converted were going to get into heaven. In the culture of the day, these people were considered the worst of sinners, salvation impossible yet they get in.

The Pharisees who represented the son who didn`t go were not going to make it in at all. Jesus isn`t offering Universal salvation with this parable as the rebellious son only continues to grow in his pride and enmity.

It`s a contrast between the religious and the righteous.

You beat me up earlier for not taking Jesus at his word. And now you do this?

It seems as though you had never read this passage before. Have you not yet read the whole Bible? (get with it) - lol

 

[zoidar]

Verse 32 says they were believers.

31 Which of the two did the will of his father?” They said, “The first.” Jesus said to them, “Truly I tell you, the tax collectors and the prostitutes are going into the kingdom of God ahead of you.

32 For John came to you in the way of righteousness and you did not believe him, but the tax collectors and the prostitutes believed him; and even after you saw it, you did not change your minds and believe him.

Thanks, you are right about that.

This looks to me like Jesus is telling the unbelieving Pharisees that they will go into the Kingdom. But the believing tax collectors and prostitutes will go in ahead of them.

I don't know exacly why Jesus puts it like that. I will look at it closer when I get home.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Well... why did Jesus say they would enter BEFORE them?

I don’t know, maybe they’ll have to go to the back of the line.

 

[ozso]

I don’t know, maybe they’ll have to go to the back of the line.

That's how interpret it. Having to enter last behind tax collectors and prostitutes, would be deeply humiliating to them. They esteemed themselves so highly and looked down upon those others so much. Some have suggested that the torment spoken of in the bible is shame. In some cultures shame is worse than death. That's why Samurai would disembowel themselves rather than face humiliation.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The way I've usually heard it is, they go to hell, then go to heaven to get judged on judgement day, and then get tossed into the lake of fire.

Yes I’ve heard it that way also and I have noticed that to be a popular belief but Revelation 20:14 gives us a clue.

“And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, every one of them according to their deeds. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.”
‭‭Revelation‬ ‭20:13-15‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬