Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

[Saint Steven]

God is impassive. To speak of God getting "angry" is incorrect. The measures God takes in judgment are not a matter of malice or ill will against the perpetrators, but because retribution is a required dimension of justice. Are you accusing God of sin?

No, I'm accusing the theologians of slander.

Besides, I get 96 results for a Bible search on "anger of the lord". Yet you say, "incorrect".

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: anger of the lord

 

[Fervent]

No, I'm accusing the theologians of slander.

Besides, I get 96 results for a Bible search on "anger of the lord". Yet you say, "incorrect".

BibleGateway - Keyword Search: anger of the lord

Right, are you also accusing God of slander when He says "Be assured, an evil person will not go unpunished, but the offspring of the righteous will be delivered." And what you speak of are anthropomorphisms, where God has chosen to relate to us in terms that we can understand. God does not experience emotions as we do, His wrath is not full of malice and contempt.

 

[Saint Steven]

Right, are you also accusing God of slander when He says "Be assured, an evil person will not go unpunished, but the offspring of the righteous will be delivered." And what you speak of are anthropomorphisms, where God has chosen to relate to us in terms that we can understand. God does not experience emotions as we do, His wrath is not full of malice and contempt.

By the time we get to Genesis chapter six God destroys the planet with a global flood killing everything except Noah, his family and a boatload of animals. So far, so good.

What did he order to have done with the Canaanites? More genocide.

Oh course, that's if you take the Bible literally.

 

[Fervent]

By the time we get to Genesis chapter six God destroys the planet with a global flood killing everything except Noah, his family and a boatload of animals. So far, so good.

What did he order to have done with the Canaanites? More genocide.

Oh course, that's if you take the Bible literally.

Oh, so you do stand in judgment of God. You are the judge of the Bible, now? How do you know what you know about God? Or are you simply creating a god to your liking?

 

[Saint Steven]

Or are you simply creating a god to your liking?

That's exactly what the writers of the Bible did. Wrote their views about God. Views from their perspective.

 

[Fervent]

That's exactly what the writers of the Bible did. Wrote their views about God. Views from their perspective.

So then what is the basis of your understanding of God?

 

[Saint Steven]

So then what is the basis of your understanding of God?

My whole life experience to date. I'm a recovering Evangelical.

Saint Steven said: ↑
That's exactly what the writers of the Bible did. Wrote their views about God. Views from their perspective.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Sounds like you need to re-read the topic question. But anyway...

So, let me see if I understand the plan that you are giving your stamp of approval to.

The vast majority of all human souls have been predestined to suffer eternal conscious torment (being burned alive, but kept alive to maximize the torture) with no hope of escape. The vast majority of those having never so much as heard the name of Jesus. (countless billions)

Is that the plan you approve of? Pretty sick. But no one could have a better plan than that, because hey it's God, who could do better than God, right?

Perhaps you are mistaken about God's wonderful plan. Because the plan you claim to be God's is pretty messed up.

Thats the problem with your theology, you don’t trust Him.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I understand that you can't wrap your head around the process. You need to do your homework if you want to understand. Links below.

But you probably don't want to understand, only to argue. Right?

The Savior of the World, by J. Preston Eby
Kindgdom Bible Studies Savior of the World Series Part 1

Christ Triumphant, by Thomas Allin
Christ Triumphant by Thomas Allin

Brad Jersak - The Gospel in Chairs - Session 1 (FGC 2016) Credits: Forgotten Gospel Conference - www.theforgottengospel.com

I don’t do commentaries but if you can explain how universalism doesn’t contradict Matthew 7:21-23 then I’m all ears. Other than that your opinions as to whether or not God is justified in His decision is irrelevant. I don’t regard the opinions of man over the word of God. Sorry

 

[RickReads]

That's exactly what the writers of the Bible did. Wrote their views about God. Views from their perspective.

Thanks for sharing. This is one of several revelations of yours that have made me really understand you.

 

[ozso]

I don’t do commentaries but if you can explain how universalism doesn’t contradict Matthew 7:21-23 then I’m all ears. Other than that your opinions as to whether or not God is justified in His decision is irrelevant. I don’t regard the opinions of man over the word of God. Sorry

Don't want to see the Eastern Othodox view of salvation eh? UR doesn't say there isn't hell. It just says it isn't what they consider to be a pointless everlasting torture chamber with billions of souls screaming in agony forever.

 

[ozso]

Like God in the OT destroying peoples and nations?

That pales considerably in comparison to the doctrine of eternal torment.

I object to your characterization of God.

That's not his characterization of God, it's the characterization of God he perceives coming from damnationists, and he objects to it.

 

[Hmm]

Oh, so you do stand in judgment of God. You are the judge of the Bible, now? How do you know what you know about God? Or are you simply creating a god to your liking?

That applies equally well to you of course. What you say about death being the end and hell being eternal was not the view held by the early church fathers, at least not universally so - I don't know enough to know which view predominated. Here's Jerome for example:

“In the end or consummation of things, all shall be restored to their original state, and be again united in one body. We cannot be ignorant that Christ’s blood benefited the angels and those who are in hell; though we know not the manner in which it produced such effects. The apostate angels shall become such as they were created; and man, who has been cast out of paradise, shall be restored thither again. And this shall be accomplished in such a way, that all shall be united together by mutual charity, so that the members will delight in each other, and rejoice in each other’s promotion. The apostate angels, and the prince of this world, though now ungovernable, plunging themselves into the depths of sin, shall, in the end, embrace the happy dominion of Christ and His saints.” – COMMENTARY ON THE NEW TESTAMENT – Jerome (347-420 A.D.)

Some obviously don't want to participate in the part I've highlighted lol

 

[Neogaia777]

So for everyone who isn’t a believer in the universal reconciliation of all things, would you prefer that universalism were true?

A simple yes or no answer to start your response would be great, then the rationale behind why you have picked either yes or no.

In the right now very narrow and very limited view and vision of my own understanding/human heart, I maybe would prefer it to be true right now, I think maybe, etc, but also know also that not only is it "not what the Bible teaches/says", but also think in a much much broader and deeper view or vision of things, it's probably not very realistic, nor very wise, etc, to allow all in always, etc, no matter how much time has passed and/or has been given/elapsed, etc...

I have also come to the realization or understanding that some don't ever change with time, no matter how much time they are given, because they were never ever meant to change with time no matter how much time they are/were/will always be given, etc...

I believe hell to eternal torment forever, because that is what I believe the Bible teaches/says, etc, but have changed my views on what that eternal torment (that lasts forever) (and never changes/ends) "is", and why it is that people are chosen to go there/be there/always be/stay there always, etc...

And it is because they have always been there/stayed there/will always continue to be there/stay there, from time eternal already, etc, so that is just always where they will always be and stay always, etc, and that it (their own personal eternal "hell") is "here", and is and/or "their life/lives" "here", etc, that never changes, because it was never meant to change or ever be anything different other than what it/they already is, or always was or will be, etc, and that has been their entire existence from the beginning of time, etc, and will continue to be their only existence until the end of time, or into or maybe even beyond time eternal even, etc, just as it always was/has been/will be up to now, etc...

They are just temporary constructs/programs only meant for here only and never ever meant to ever go beyond it, because they were just never designed to, or for it, etc... And they're one and only sole purpose here, or for even being anywhere really, is only to grow those who are, or will, or do, etc, (go beyond this here, etc)... And that is their entire lives, either here or there, and is their sole existence/reason/purpose for being only ever at all anywhere, for all time here, etc...

Now do I believe it is "conscious" torment...? I guess I would say "no", not really, etc, since they are never ever aware of repeating it each time, but are conscious of it only at or during the time, each time, etc, but have no conscious awareness beyond it/that or "any of this" that I speak of here at all ever each time anywhere, etc... And I might even argue whether they really ever are/were/ever will be/won't ever be, etc, even ever "truly conscious/self-aware beings" ever at all in the first place, etc, not even ever at all to even begin with, etc, or even ever at all ever at any time after it/that ever at all either, etc...

Anyway, going to stop here for now...

They just are what they are, and it/this just is what it is, etc, and we must learn how to just simply accept that simply, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Neogaia777]

God's implemented plan is that Society is being redeemed by the Atonement of Christ's blood and the power of the Holy Spirit via the Church. Christ's Church is carrying out God's plan for bringing the reconciliation of the Cross to all nations and we cannot fail (Matthew 16:18-19):

2 Corinthians 5:18-20
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation; To wit, that God was in Christ, RECONCILING THE WORLD UNTO HIMSELF, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. Now then we are ambassadors for Christ, as God did beseech you by us

So we can see that at this time God is reconciling all the world unto himself, per His Plan to do so.

God's plan is for us to love and focus on the world Jesus loves (John 3:16-17) and rules over (Revelation 1:5; Matthew 28:18)--the world he gave to his followers (Romans 4:13-18, 1 Corinthians 3:22).

Jesus loves the world and reconciled it unto Him. That's the Plan.
We are to love the Plan Jesus loves.

There can be a "reconciling" or peace, and a non-imputation of their trespasses against them, or between them and God the Spirit, and still not all go Heaven, etc, because that is not why people go there, or don't go there, etc...

God Bless!

 

[Saint Steven]

Thats the problem with your theology, you don’t trust Him.

That's ridiculous. I trust God just fine.
And I understand him well enough to know that the standard view is wrong.

But you are willing to trust a "God" that is characterized as a cosmic tyrant? Simply because the Bible says his ways are above our ways and beyond our understanding?

If your neighbor was torturing people in his basement would you brag about his good character?

Saint Steven said: ↑
Sounds like you need to re-read the topic question. But anyway...

So, let me see if I understand the plan that you are giving your stamp of approval to.

The vast majority of all human souls have been predestined to suffer eternal conscious torment (being burned alive, but kept alive to maximize the torture) with no hope of escape. The vast majority of those having never so much as heard the name of Jesus. (countless billions)

Is that the plan you approve of? Pretty sick. But no one could have a better plan than that, because hey it's God, who could do better than God, right?

Perhaps you are mistaken about God's wonderful plan. Because the plan you claim to be God's is pretty messed up.

 

[Cormack]

Now do I believe it is "conscious" torment...?

Do you think a persons conception of hell is grounds to call heresy?

I mean, from the eternal separation view, to the doors of hell are locked from the inside view, to the literal fires literally burning forever view, there’s a world of difference there.

Do you feel there’s one true blue biblical view on hell and the rest are a heretical aberration?

 

[Neogaia777]

Do you feel there’s one true blue biblical view on hell and the rest are a heretical aberration?

Yes and Yes, and I think I just maybe told you guys the correct one maybe, etc...

The most clear definition of the quote/unquote "fire" I think is "suffering, pain, torment", etc...

Or at least, that's my take/view on it anyway...

God Bless!

 

[Saint Steven]

I don’t do commentaries but if you can explain how universalism doesn’t contradict Matthew 7:21-23 then I’m all ears. Other than that your opinions as to whether or not God is justified in His decision is irrelevant. I don’t regard the opinions of man over the word of God. Sorry

We are both working from a presumption. I have a chosen view of the final judgment and you have chosen another view. Both views are biblical. (and contradictory)

So, it's really not fair for you to automatically assume my view is wrong. It is your VIEW of the final judgment that I disagree with. Don't make the false claim that I disagree with God. (as if yours is the ONLY view, or the "right" view) That is what is WRONG with this discussion, rather than my views. Got it?

In reference to Matthew 7:21-23 the view of that from a UR perspective would be that it is not a final decision, but a temporary one. As if those lined up to enter the kingdom (cross the border) think they have their papers in order, but are stopped and sent back. Therefore not allowed to enter NOW. (come back when you have your house in order) I'm using an analogy here to explain.

The chapter context gives us some clues about this as well. Matthew 7:21-23 sits between warnings about false prophets/the tree and its fruit and hearers vs. doers of the words of Christ. These false prophets should have been recognized by their fruit. Jesus is saying they will not enter. (for now) Compare Matthew 21:31 Note: "ahead" of you. Not instead of you. If some are ahead, then some are behind. Like those wrongfully saying "Lord, Lord".

And frankly, Matthew 7:21-23 is used as an apologetic against UR. (which is probably what you are up to) Do you deny what is said in Philippians 2:10-11 ?

Note on "acknowledge" in Philippians 2:11 from Strong's Concordance
S1843 eksomologéō (from 1537 /ek, "wholly out from," intensifying 3670 /homologéō, "say the same thing about") – properly, fully agree and to acknowledge that agreement openly (whole-heartedly); hence, to confess ("openly declare"), without reservation (no holding back).

 

[Saint Steven]

Thanks for sharing. This is one of several revelations of yours that have made me really understand you.

Thanks.
I hope you don't think this means that I am throwing the Bible away. That is not the case.

Saint Steven said: ↑
That's exactly what the writers of the Bible did. Wrote their views about God. Views from their perspective.