Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

[Religiot]

So for everyone who isn’t a believer in the universal reconciliation of all things, would you prefer that universalism were true?

A simple yes or no answer to start your response would be great, then the rationale behind why you have picked either yes or no.

Good question.

Yes, I would prefer that, if by universalism you mean that all men end up repenting and turning from their own way to God's way, yes, yes indeed; I would certainly prefer that.

 

[AV1611VET]

Is there not only one "type" of justice--"giving everyone his due, what he is owed?"

Really like your posts, BTW. . .you can be very funny.

Thank you, Clare! God bless!

 

[zoidar]

Wow! . .that never worked for me.

Hm, exactly what are saying?

 

[zoidar]

Gehenna is the word in the Greek, why not use that?

Sometimes I do.

 

[AV1611VET]

For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. 1 Timothy 4:10

And what's going to happen when the "Savior of all men" can't find someone's name in His book of life?

 

[zoidar]

Does Calvin say anything that is not Scriptural, that Paul does not say?

Yes, most of Calvin's teachings are derived from human ideas.

 

[Clare73]

Yes, most of Calvin's teachings are derived from human ideas.

I was hoping you would provide a few examples, that I may examine them.

 

[zoidar]

I was hoping you would provide a few examples, that I may examine them.

You want to me to show where Calvinism is not taught? Well any passage would do. Nowhere in Paul's letters.

Edit: It's easier to show what is taught than what is not taught. It's not like Paul is trying to disprove Calvinism. Calvinistic ideas are just not in his head at all writing his letters. Often he talks about Jews and Gentiles being justified the same way, through faith and not by the Mosaic Law.

When I say Calvinistic ideas or Calvinism i pretty much refer to the ideas that are symbolized by the TULIP. Of course not everything in Calvinism is wrong.

 

[Servus]

And what's going to happen when the "Savior of all men" can't find someone's name in His book of life?

I don't know. What do you think Paul meant?

 

[zoidar]

I was hoping you would provide a few examples, that I may examine them.

I'll give you one example.

And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
— Ephesians 2:1-7

This is not teaching Calvinism. It's teaching repentance when being dead in sins, then God made us alive in Christ. We are hardly alive in Christ before being saved.

for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
— Romans 10:13

We have the same idea here. When we were enemies we were reconciled to God - by repentance and faith - through the death of His Son. Much more having been reconciled (made righteous through faith) we shall be saved by His life.

For if while we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of His Son, much more, having been reconciled, we shall be saved by His life.
— Romans 5:10

for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus; whom God displayed publicly as a propitiation in His blood through faith.
— Romans 3:23-25

 

[RickReads]

Oh. . .OK. . .the word "impute" threw me off.

Error on my part. Leave it to you. LOL!

 

[Clare73]

I'll give you one example.
And you were dead in your trespasses and sins, in which you formerly walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, of the spirit that is now working in the sons of disobedience. Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest. But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, so that in the ages to come He might show the surpassing riches of His grace in kindness toward us in Christ Jesus.
— Ephesians 2:1-7

This is not teaching Calvinism. It's teaching repentance when being dead in sins, then God made us alive in Christ. We are hardly alive in Christ before being saved.

for “Whoever will call on the name of the Lord will be saved.”
— Romans 10:13

Okay, help me out here.

What does Calvin teach in this regard?

 

[zoidar]

Okay, help me out here.

What does Calvin teach in this regard?

That when we were dead in sins we couldn't repent.

Btw added to the other post.

 

[Clare73]

That when we were dead in sins we couldn't repent.

Btw added to the other post.

Ok, good.

Do you disagree that it requires the grace of the Holy Spirit to repent? That
"The man without the Spirit of God (unregenerate, not born again) does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, and he cannot understand them, for they are foolishness to him"
(1 Corinthians 2:14, John 14:17), he wants no part of them.

 

[zoidar]

Ok, good.

Do you disagree that it requires the grace of the Holy Spirit to repent? That
"The man without the Spirit of God (unregenerate, not born again) does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God, and he cannot understand them, for they are foolishness to him"
(1 Corinthians 2:14, John 14:17), he wants no part of them.

I say you don't have the Holy Spirit before you have repented. But sure the Holy Spirit is doing the conviction of the ungenerate.

 

[Clare73]

I say you don't have the Holy Spirit before you have repented and been regenerated. But sure the Holy Spirit is doing the conviction of the ungenerate.

Thanks. . .so isn't Calvin just saying that man cannot repent on his own, he must have the work of the Holy Spirit enabling him to do so. . .as in John 6:65 or 1 Corinthians 2:14?

 

[zoidar]

Thanks. . .so isn't Calvin just saying that man cannot repent on his own, he must have the work of the Holy Spirit enabling him to do so. . .as in John 6:65 or 1 Corinthians 2:14?

He is saying more than that, that we must first receive the Holy Spirit to be able to repent, which isn't true.

 

[zoidar]

Thanks. . .so isn't Calvin just saying that man cannot repent on his own, he must have the work of the Holy Spirit enabling him to do so. . .as in John 6:65 or 1 Corinthians 2:14?

1 Cor 2:14 doesn't say the unregenerated/worldly man can't repent. It's saying the interest of the worldly man is of the pleasures of this world, he doesn't care about the wisdom of God. If the ungodly man gets convicted and repents he will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift by grace.

 

[Clare73]

1 Cor 2:14 doesn't say the unregenerated/worldly man can't repent. It's saying the interest of the worldly man is of the pleasures of this world, he doesn't care about the wisdom of God. If the ungodly man get convicted and repents he will receive the Holy Spirit as a gift by grace.

I'm getting a clearer picture now of what you mean.

First of all, let me point out that Paul is talking about more than just "interest" and "not caring" in
1 Corinthians 2:14, he us talking about inability--does not, cannot, is foolishness to him.

And I note that conviction is a work of the Holy Spirit, not man, correct?

And it seems to me repentance is all part of the package of conviction, right?

And who is the source of all that--the Holy Spirit, not man.

I think what Calvin is saying is that without the work of the Holy Spirit within one, which is only by the new birth, there would be no conviction and repentance, for Jesus says you can't even see the kingdom of God unless you are born again (John 3:3), and repentance is much more than just seeing the kingdom of God, it is the faith of entering the kingdom of God, and Jesus also makes clear that rebirth by the Holy Spirit is a totally sovereign gift of God (John 3:8), depending on nothing but "whatever God pleases," no?

 

[zoidar]

I'm getting a clearer picture now of what you mean.

I note that conviction is a work of the Holy Spirit, not man, correct?

Yes! The Holy Spirit works to convict man, but man often resists the Holy Spirit which leads to no true conviction at all, and therefore no repentance. Doesn't the Holy Spirit break through resistance? Sometimes He does, sometimes He doesn't. Couldn't God work His raw power to convict anyone He chooses. Sure He can, but He has chosen to reveal himself to the "poor".

“You men who are stiff-necked and uncircumcised in heart and ears are always resisting the Holy Spirit; you are doing just as your fathers did.
— Acts 7:51

At that time Jesus said, “I praise You, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, that You have hidden these things from the wise and intelligent and have revealed them to infants.
— Matthew 11:25

And it seems to me repentance is all part of the package of conviction, right?

And who is the source of all that--the Holy Spirit, not man.

Yes, in the sense I described above.

I think what Calvin is saying is that without the work of the Holy Spirit within one, which is only by the new birth, there would be no conviction and repentance, for Jesus says you can't even see the kingdom of God unless you are born again (John 3:3), and repentance is much more than just seeing the kingdom of God, it is the faith of entering the kingdom of God, and Jesus also makes clear that rebirth by the Holy Spirit is a totally sovereign gift of God (John 3:8), depending on nothing but "whatever God pleases," no?

Seeing the kingdom of God is impossible without having entered the kingdom of God, having the Holy Spirit and been saved.