Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

[Clare73]

Your literal interpretation of these verses makes for
an odd definition of the word ”just”

The definition of "just" is "giving everyone his due, what he is owed."

What do you see in disagreement with that definition?

 

[Clare73]

But what do you do with all the grace parables and verses that just as clearly say the exact opposite?

Such as?

Do they apply to those who reject/do not believe in the person and atoning work (blood--Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ?

 

[Clare73]

That is simply the difference between forgiven and unforgiven sins. God erases forgiven sins although even they often carry consequences we must live with in this life.

Unforgiven imputed sins are a problem.

The only imputed sin is the sin of Adam (original sin).

And it's actually not a problem when there is a remedy for that sin.
Ignoring the remedy makes it your problem, not sin's problem.

 

[AV1611VET]

The definition of "just" is "giving everyone his due, what he is owed."

What do you see in disagreement with it?

Good post.

There are three types of judgement:

1. Justice = getting what we deserve = Hell
   
2. Mercy = not getting what we deserve = Hell
   
3. Grace = getting what we don't deserve = Heaven

Paul says ...

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Universalism extends grace to include everyone, regardless of faith in Christ or not.

 

[Hmm]

What in the word of God do you have that opposes the following: (again!)

Well we have:

for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ
1 Corinthians 15:22

For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross.
Colossians 1:19-20

Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all.
Romans 5:18

but no doubt you won't accept the plain meaning of these texts just as I don't accept the meaning you ascribe to your quotes. It's obvious to me that the Bible says contradictory things on the subject so swapping proof texts isn't going to get us anywhere. Would you agree with that?

 

[Clare73]

Good post.

There are three types of judgement:

1. Justice = getting what we deserve = Hell
   
2. Mercy = not getting what we deserve = Hell
   
3. Grace = getting what we don't deserve = Heaven

Paul says ...

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

Universalism extends grace to include everyone, regardless of faith in Christ or not.

Is there not only one "type" of justice--"giving everyone his due, what he is owed?"

Really like your posts, BTW. . .you can be very funny.

 

[Hmm]

Such as?

See #558. You probably won't so here are the examples given:

the parables of grace like the Prodigal Son, the king who cancels the debt that the servant couldn't possibly pay off and the employer who pays the latecomers the same as the all-day crew

Do they apply to those who reject/do not believe in the person and atoning work (blood--Romans 3:25) of Jesus Christ?

They don't mention any of that so why do you assume they don't apply?

 

[Hmm]

The definition of "just" is "giving everyone his due, what he is owed."

What do you see in disagreement with that definition?

That's the natural definition of ”just” - that what we do, but God tempers justice with grace and forgiveness.

 

[Clare73]

Well we have:

1 Corinthians 15:22 - for as all die in Adam, so all will be made alive in Christ

Romans 5:18 - Therefore just as one man’s trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man’s act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all.

Good response. . .

Also see Romans 5:18-19:

All those of Adam are made sinners/condemned by the sin of Adam, and
all those of Christ are made righteous/justified by the righteousness of Christ.

Romans 5:18-19 are two contrastintg parallels regarding those in Adam and those in Christ. . .all are in Adam, not all are in Christ.

For in him all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell, and through him God was pleased to reconcile to himself
all things, whether on earth or in heaven, by making peace through the blood of his cross. Colossians 1:19-20

Note that "all things" is specified and does not include hell, for that would be contradicting much Scripture.

but no doubt you won't accept the plain meaning of these texts just as I don't accept the meaning you ascribe to your quotes. It's obvious to me that the Bible says contradictory things on the subject so swapping proof texts isn't going to get us anywhere.
Would you agree with that?

Well. . .actually not. . .the contradiction lies in one's understanding, not in the word of God, as seen in the texts above which
are acutally not contradictory. . .for God does not contradict himself in his word written.

 

[Hmm]

Well. . .actually not. . .the contradiction lies in one's understanding, not in the word of God, as seen in the texts above which
are acutally not contradictory. . .for God does not contradict himself in his word written.

The Bible is inspired by God, not dictated by him, unlike the Koran for example. It's the word of God written in the words of man and it is inconsistent at times - see the differing accounts of what the women saw when they went to the empty tomb for instance. This only adds to the authenticity of to me though - the gospel writers were very honest and recorded what was actually said to them even though they knew the odd differences would probably cause problems down the line. Eye witness accounts from a group of people are never consistent in all details. But we have gone off topic so let's just agree that I'm right and you're wrong

 

[RickReads]

The only imputed sin is the sin of Adam (original sin).

And it's actually not a problem when there is a remedy for that sin.
Ignoring the remedy makes it your problem, not sin's problem.

I`m talking about sins that are unforgiven and unrepented.

 

[Clare73]

See #558. You probably won't so here are the examples given:

Do they not demonstrate gospel saving grace which we know is only through
repentance (prodigal son) and faith (Ephesians 2:8-9),
and no faith = no gospel saving grace; i.e., condemnation, according to Jesus himself (John 3:18, John 3:36)?

They don't mention any of that so why do you assume they don't apply?

They don't mention repentance, but they show repentance (prodigal son),
they illustrate faith, for in light of all that Jesus said (e.g., John 3:18), we know cancelling the debt by the king (God) was due to faith,
and they address the issue of God's right to grant mercy to some and not to all; i.e., to those who believe, and not to those who don't, who remain condemned (Romans 5:18).

 

[Clare73]

That's the natural definition of ”just” -

That's the only definition of justice, and is the Biblical definition.

that what we do, but God tempers justice with grace and forgiveness.

Well. . .actually, God satisfies his justice (Jesus' atoning death on the cross) in order to grant grace and forgiveness in accordance with his justice.
God's justice governs everything, for he must maintain it to be able to give everyone what he is owed.

 

[Servus]

For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. 1 Timothy 4:10

 

[Clare73]

The Bible is inspired by God, not dictated by him, unlike the Koran for example. It's the word of God written in the words of man and it is inconsistent at times - see the differing accounts of what the women saw when they went to the empty tomb for instance.

The Bible is God-breathed (theopnuestos).

The word of God written is not inconsistent, either in the accounts of the women and what they saw, which are reconcilable, or anywhere else.
It is one's understanding that is inconsistent, until one understands it correctly, and then there are no inconsistencies.

 

[Hmm]

The Bible is God-breathed (theopnuestos).

The word of God written is not inconsistent, either in the accounts of the women and what they saw, which are reconcilable, or anywhere else.
It is one's understanding that is inconsistent, until one understands it correctly, and then there are no inconsistencies.

Let's agree to disagree.

 

[misput]

So for everyone who isn’t a believer in the universal reconciliation of all things, would you prefer that universalism were true?

A simple yes or no answer to start your response would be great, then the rationale behind why you have picked either yes or no.

I prefer to leave questions like this up to God, He knows what He is doing, we do not.

 

[Clare73]

I`m talking about sins that are unforgiven and unrepented.

Oh. . .OK. . .the word "impute" threw me off.

 

[Clare73]

For it is for this we labor and strive, because we have fixed our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, especially of believers. 1 Timothy 4:10

How about he preserves and prospers them all naturally, but in addition gives those who believe a way out of their condemnation (Romans 5:18) which, by the way, he does not give the fallen angels.

This is not Brian.

 

[Clare73]

Let's agree to disagree.

That works.