Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

[RickReads]

But what do you do with all the grace parables and verses that just as clearly say the exact opposite?

That is simply the difference between forgiven and unforgiven sins. God erases forgiven sins although even they often carry consequences we must live with in this life.

Unforgiven imputed sins are a problem.

 

[Clare73]

Unfortunately you are a rare breed. It seems most are on a mission to disprove it
rather than explore it. So you're likely to automatically get lumped in with them.

Where do we find Jesus "exploring" the contra-Biblical, as universalism is contrary to

sin not being forgiven even in the next life (Matthew 12:32)--no universal reconciliation,
burning of the tares/weeds (Matthew 13:30),
unquenchable fire for unforgiven sin (Mark 9:47-48),
burning up (ruin) of the chaff with unquenchable fire (Luke 3:17),
no eternal life, only wrath for those who reject Christ (John 3:36),
unending second death (Revelation 20:14-15, Revelation 20:10)?

This is not Brian.

 

[Clare73]

That’s an impressive overview, @Hmm. I largely agree and find reading your take on the topic really encouraging. Like you the idea that the “moral dilemma between justice and forgiveness” could be fully reconciled in the universalistic sense didn’t occur to me until bouncing around ideas in this topic. We should thank @RickReads for providing that breakthrough due to his intellectual honesty and friendly pushback earlier in the discussion.

What dilemma?

Justice requires payment of debt owed for sin.
Debt is paid by Jesus Christ.
Sin is forgiven/cancelled.

That's the gospel. . .where is this "dilemma?"

Speaking of "in your head too much". . .

 

[Clare73]

A rose, by any other name, is still a rose. Everyone hopes to be reconciled to God.
And no one "wants" to be annihilated. (though they might say they do)

Satan, his minions and those who agree with Satan do not. . .you're projecting.

 

[Clare73]

Absolutely. He dodged the question.
Amazing to me that someone would come on this topic and claim there is "a better system" than Universalism. Really?
(sarcasm warning)
Like the God who taught us to love our enemies incinerates his? But that's okay, because he's God. It's not like we could stop him from being a cosmic tyrant. Besides we are free to choose. God loves you, but if you choose not to believe that, he will incinerate you. (spiritual extortion) Thus turning our loving heavenly Father into a gangster godfather. An offer you can't refuse.

What amazes me is that someone would claim that Univeralism is a better system than the one of God's wisdom revealed in Scripture,
for which there is no Biblical basis for denying:

sin not being forgiven even in the next life (Matthew 12:32)--no universal reconciliation,
burning of the tares/weeds (Matthew 13:30),
unquenchable fire for unforgiven sin (Mark 9:47-48),
burning up (ruin) of the chaff with unquenchable fire (Luke 3:17),
no eternal life, only wrath for those who reject Christ (John 3:36),
unending second death (Revelation 20:14-15, Revelation 20:10).

 

[Clare73]

What did you say earlier about a Universalism bias? My, my.

You will never understand Christian Universalism by reading Damnationist authors.

Sounds like one for the "plus" column to me. . .

 

[Clare73]

Just imagine sarcasm without the trigger warning. The faint hearts and skirt lifting in chat would go through the roof, like there’s a mouse in the kitchen.
Anyway very true, total red herring, not saying it’s intentional but it’s a red herring nonetheless.
If there’s a better system (that’s not grounded in assuming universalism is false from the get go,) let’s be having it.

It's what is always best--the system of God's wisdom revealed in the God-breathed Scriptures
(2 Timothy 3:16) of the following: (again!)

sin not being forgiven even in the next life (Matthew 12:32)--no universal reconciliation,
burning of the tares/weeds (Matthew 13:30),
unquenchable fire for unforgiven sin (Mark 9:47-48),
burning up (ruin) of the chaff with unquenchable fire (Luke 3:17),
no eternal life, only wrath for those who reject Christ (John 3:36),
unending second death (Revelation 20:14-15, Revelation 20:10).

 

[Clare73]

The issue of hell is a really hard one, but I don't think I would have become a Christian unless we can be lost. I didn't want to be a Christian, you see, but the truth showed me I was on my way downward. The sorrow of
missing out on heaven, was a big reason for my repentance.

Wow! . .that never worked for me.

 

[Cormack]

Finally, I must add, I could be wrong about predestination vs free will, but I know I’m not wrong that Christ is my savior no matter how it happened.

That's something we have to be thankful for.

I really enjoyed the way you both stressed that message, @ColoRaydo and @zoidar. Encouraging. Y’all are being proper Christian royalty

 

[Clare73]

Right.
They seem to be avoiding the usual argument that Universalism leaves no room for the justice of God. (not true) But that leaves them inferring that ECT with
no hope of escape is justice.

You just don't get it. . .too fond of your own judgment. . .justice is what God says it is, not what you want it to be.

" 'Your ways are not my ways,' delcares the Lord."
--Isaiah 55:8; Matthew 16:23b

'Hear, O my people, and I will speak. . .
You thought I (the 'I AM') was altogether like you." (Psalms 50:7, 21)

 

[Clare73]

I don't either. But if you were a Hindu were born in India, what would you call it?

You could argue that their definition is wrong, but they still want to be reconciled to God in the afterlife. That desire mirrors Christian Universalism.

If they really want that, they can have it in this life when it is available, because they cannot have it in the next life when "the door is shut." (Matthew 25:10; Luke 16:24-26)

That's the plan of God's wisdom whether we agree with it or not.

 

[AV1611VET]

So for everyone who isn’t a believer in the universal reconciliation of all things, would you prefer that universalism were true?

No.

As separatists, the idea of a universal reconciliation of all things is not an option.

2 Corinthians 6:17 Wherefore come out from among them, and be ye separate, saith the Lord, and touch not the unclean thing; and I will receive you,

 

[Clare73]

You may not be as confident of that if you listen to people who suffer
from excessive guilt or ”scrupulosity" as it's termed in some religious traditions.

That's the result of unbalanced teaching, not the fault of the Biblical truth.

Throwing the baby out with the bathwater is not the solution.

 

[Clare73]

I really enjoyed the way you both stressed that message, @ColoRaydo and @zoidar. Encouraging.
Y’all are being proper Christian royalty

Nice to have the blessing of your judgment. . .

 

[Clare73]

I pretty much think the same. I'm not sure either but one thing's for sure,
no plausible argument has been presented in this thread on the opposing side.

And the word of God written is not enough. . .you need a "plausible argument?"

What in the word of God do you have that opposes the following: (again!)

sin not being forgiven even in the next life (Matthew 12:32)--no universal reconciliation,
burning of the tares/weeds (Matthew 13:30),
unquenchable fire for unforgiven sin (Mark 9:47-48),
burning up (ruin) of the chaff with unquenchable fire (Luke 3:17),
no eternal life, only wrath for those who reject Christ (John 3:36),
unending second death (Revelation 20:14-15, Revelation 20:10)?

 

[Clare73]

I don't like the word "hell". I prefer to use "eternal death". I'm not making any claims to know what that means other than it's the unpreferable destination, to say the least.

Gehenna is the word in the Greek, why not use that?

 

[AV1611VET]

And also as far as obedience goes, the OT is full of rules about being obedient, without any threat of Hell.

That's because you don't get to Heaven by your works.

Nobody ended up in Hell because they broke one of the 613 (?) laws in the Old Testament.

They ended up in Hell because of their unwillingness to believe God to the point of repentance and salvation.

 

[Clare73]

Why not Lutheranism? I often get a sorrow in my heart when someone is moving towards Calvinism. Honestly
if Calvinism is true I don't know if I can continue being a Christian. For about a year I considered the ideas of Calvinism being true. I was very depressed during this time, I had this huge burden on my heart. That made me look for possible alternatives. I found where I had gone wrong in how I read Scripture, and I'm thankful for that.

Does Calvin say anything that is not Scriptural, that Paul does not say?

 

[Clare73]

I am a Lutheran.

Like most people, I want black and white answers to all my questions. But I was (and still am to some degree) plagued by
why some people, and some family members in particular, won’t respond to Christ’s call. It truly makes the most sense to me that they simply cannot.

"The man without the Spirit of God (unregenerate, not born again) does not accept the things that come from the Spirit of God,
and he cannot understand them, for they are foolishness to him" (1 Corinthians 2:14, John 14:17), he wants no part of them.

Though I believe we are obligated to share the Good News, I believe God’s sovereignty rules and I’m not the Holy Spirit. I believe God knew us before creation and that the people who are born and who die in some remote village in Pakistan or Morocco aren’t just unlucky because they met a Christian from the west and couldn’t fathom why he’s not Muslim.

Even in the USA, I have friends who were born and raised in anti Christian homes. They think I’m insane (spiritually). Clearly, they didn’t have the opportunity to receive God’s free gift that I did being raised by Christians (though neither one of my parents were Christians until shortly before I was born).

In short, I believe it’s God that chooses.

Finally, I must add, I could be wrong about predestination vs free will, but I know I’m not wrong that Christ is my savior no matter how it happened.

 

[Clare73]

Yes I feel the same regarding universalism and once saved always saved. With those two in play my motivation is no longer for myself in any way and becomes totally for God and others.

And also as far as obedience goes, the OT is full of rules about being obedient, without any threat of Hell.

Just the curse of the law. . .

This is not Brian.