Would you prefer it if “Christian universalism” were true?

[Servus]

Jesus was speaking publically so it had to be a parable.

Mike Kestler the host of the Bible answer radio program To Every Man An Answer, insists that since Jesus used the proper name Lazarus, it has to be literal because Jesus never uses proper names in parables.

 

[AV1611VET]

Mike Kestler the host of the Bible answer radio program To Every Man An Answer, insists that since Jesus used the proper name Lazarus, it has to be literal because Jesus never uses proper names in parables.

Yup -- that's standard teaching in our church too.

 

[Servus]

Yup -- that's standard teaching in our church too.

Do you ever think outside the box of the standard teaching you've received? Do they even allow for it?

 

[AV1611VET]

Do you ever think outside the box of the standard teaching you've received? Do they even allow for it?

LOL -- I'm second to none here in "thinking outside the box" (in my opinion).

QV please: Setting the Record Straight

 

[Servus]

Pretty interesting that people in Hades can have conversations with Abraham. I wonder who else in Heaven people in Hades can have conversations with.

 

[Servus]

LOL -- I'm second to none here in "thinking outside the box" (in my opinion).

QV please: Setting the Record Straight

I find it difficult to take you seriously. I get the feeling most everything you post is either tinged with or is outright satire.

 

[AV1611VET]

Pretty interesting that people in Hades can have conversations with Abraham. I wonder who else in Heaven people in Hades can have conversations with.

In the Old Testament, Hell consisted of three things:

1. Hell, proper (fire and brimstone)
2. Paradise
3. A "great gulf" between the two places.

Everyone in the Old Testament who died, went to Hell: Abraham, Moses, David, everyone.

But the ones who were saved (such as Abraham, Moses, and David) went to the Paradise side.

That's why, in the Old Testament, the witch of Endor had to call Abraham up from Paradise.

In the New Testament, Jesus took Paradise to Heaven.

That is why, when Paul was beaten to death at Lystra (Acts 14), he talks about seeing Paradise in Heaven.

2 Corinthians 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; )
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

 

[AV1611VET]

I find it difficult to take you seriously. I get the feeling most everything you post is either tinged with or is outright satire.

And that's just sad.

I've made this point more than once here:

If we stick with basic doctrine and Bible verses, we get accused of "not thinking outside the box."

If we speculate too much, then we get accused of "making things up."

It's a catch 22, isn't it?

 

[Servus]

In the Old Testament, Hell consisted of three things:

1. Hell, proper (fire and brimstone)
2. Paradise
3. A "great gulf" between the two places.

That set up doesn't exist anywhere in the Old Testimement. But I get that you like to make whacky statements. So I'm not going to attempt to have a serious conversation with you.

Everyone in the Old Testament who died, went to Hell: Abraham, Moses, David, everyone.

But the ones who were saved (such as Abraham, Moses, and David) went to the Paradise side.

That's why, in the Old Testament, the witch of Endor had to call Abraham up from Paradise.

In the New Testament, Jesus took Paradise to Heaven.

That is why, when Paul was beaten to death at Lystra (Acts 14), he talks about seeing Paradise in Heaven.

2 Corinthians 12:1 It is not expedient for me doubtless to glory. I will come to visions and revelations of the Lord.
2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth: ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth: )
4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.

 

[AV1611VET]

So I'm not going to attempt to have a serious conversation with you.

"Suture self," the doctor said.

 

[Servus]

And that's just sad.

I've made this point more than once here:

If we stick with basic doctrine and Bible verses, we get accused of "not thinking outside the box."

If we speculate too much, then we get accused of "making things up."

It's a catch 22, isn't it?

I can't tell if you're being serious or not.

 

[AV1611VET]

I can't tell if you're being serious or not.

I just gave you a list of what I seriously believe, along with things I no longer believe, and even a couple of jokes.

And you come back with this?

 

[Servus]

I just gave you a list of what I seriously believe, along with things I no longer believe, and even a couple of jokes.

And you come back with this?

Surely I'm not the first.

 

[RickReads]

Mike Kestler the host of the Bible answer radio program To Every Man An Answer, insists that since Jesus used the proper name Lazarus, it has to be literal because Jesus never uses proper names in parables.

I`ve heard ministers say that as well. The Bible doesn`t say it though. People say a lot of things that sound right but aren`t in the bible.

Matthew 13
34 All these things spake Jesus unto the multitude in parables; and without a parable spake he not unto them:

35 That it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophet, saying, I will open my mouth in parables; I will utter things which have been kept secret from the foundation of the world.

 

[RickReads]

Luke 16 is not a parable.

And even if it was, it was a real event Jesus witnessed.

If it is a real event then why did the man get judged before everyone else? Even many of the angels are still on the loose that will have to be rounded up.

 

[Servus]

If it is a real event then why did the man get judged before everyone else? Even many of the angels are still on the loose that will have to be rounded up.

I believe the way it's supposed to work is death, hell, final judgement, back into hell.

 

[zoidar]

Only the powerful witness of the Holy Spirit.

How did that play out in your life?

 

[zoidar]

Loss of heaven or fear of hell could not make me believe.

I like to add that loss of heaven was not what made me believe, but what made me repent. At that time I allready believed, but I didn't have faith, if that makes sense to you?

 

[zoidar]

Thanks. . .like Saint Francis of Assisi?

She was one of his followers.

 

[zoidar]

Luke 16:19-31 is a parable about the OT and "hellfire," reflecting OT belief in Hades (Luke 16:23), which Jesus affirms, using it to teach two things:
1) fire is the destiny of the damned, and
2) repentance is not possible after death (Luke 16:27-31)--no universalism.

And you'll find the description of "hell" in Luke 16:23-24 in the "sorrows of hell" in Deuteronomy 32:22, Psalms 18:5, and "destruction of hell" in Proverbs 15:11, 27:20.

I think Luke 16:19-31 is probably a parable about Jews and Gentiles rather than meant as a literal story about hell. Both parables in Luke 16 start out with "There was a certain rich man". The rich man represents the Pharisees. Lazarus represents the Gentiles. What was given to the Jews is now being given to the Gentiles.

The main purpose of this parable (Luke 16:19-31) is that we are not to be like the rich man, but give part of what we have to the poor. That's way too often overlooked.