Would you kill someone if God told you to?

[ebia]

joey_downunder, if atheists knew how to read/use the Bible, they would not be atheists

If Christians knew how to use the bible Christianity might be very different.

 

[David Jerome]

The Ark killed anyone who would ever touch it so that its contents, the law and symbol of God's everlasting covenant, could never be removed, no exceptions. I doubt the man went to Hell for it.

So what would God have done if the man just let the Ark fall and shatter, and the law and everything with broke?

David disobeyed an order from God, seeking confidence in his own power over confidence in God's power.

That's just it; David didn't disobey any specific order. In fact, the Bible doesn't even say why God was angered; we can only assume, since the Bible doesn't say it directly. This is fact; check for yourself.

In neither of these cases did God ask anyone to do the killing. God did it Himself.

For actions that caused NO harm to society.


This is the last time I respond to your questions (in this thread), only because I don't want to break any forum rules, and drag this to a debate.

 

[David Jerome]

How do you know what I believe? You're actually wrong. I'm well aware that God killed for petty reasons, and you've given some examples yourself. Check out Ezekiel 24:15-18;



God kills Ezekiel's wife for no other reason than to be an example to Israel of what he was going to do to them.

As long as you acknowledge this, that's fine.

 

[lucaspa]

Christians often say that there can be no morality without God, so I thought I'd ask this question. Yes, it's a hard one but I want people to be honest. Most Christians believe that God speaks today, so what would you do if God told you to kill someone? Would you do it?

Before anyone says that God wouldn't ask this of someone in this day and age, I would stipulate that it's a hypothetical question. Also, remember there is a precedent for this in that God asked Abraham to kill Isaac.

True, there is a precedent. However, because of that precedent, God doesn't need to ask anyone else to kill someone to "prove" their faith in God. Remember, God stopped Abraham at the last second. So God didn't actually have Abraham kill Isaac.

Yes, some Christians say there is no morality without God. It is nearly always used in a context of trying to "prove" the existence of God. However, that is manifestly false. This question has been posed for at least 2500 years: is something moral because God commands it or does God command it because it is moral? Nearly every Christian, when pushed, will say that God commands it because it is good. If we take the first option, then we have the ultimate in relativistic morals. So, morality is independent of God. God provides us a shortcut to morals, similarly to how we provide a shortcut to morals to our children.

Also remember that God in flesh -- Jesus -- refused to kill anyone even to save his life. So no, if I thought I had a command to kill someone, I would look for another source of that, i.e. insanity, instead of viewing it as a command from God.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

joey_downunder, if atheists knew how to read/use the Bible, they would not be atheists

Christians keep going on about some mystical way of reading the Bible that they do not care to divulge to non-Christians. As far as I'm concerned the Bible can be read plainly, because it's plainly readable in English. I don't think any special interpretive technique is required to read the Bible; the clues of most passages are often in the context themselves. Only someone with learning difficulties would fail to understand most of Bible. I think the reasons Christians like to make the Bible sound like it has some esoteric message that requires skilled interpretive methods is because they're trying to hide all the nasty stuff in there, or pretend it isn't in there at all.

I don't take much of the Bible literally any more. I believe in evolution and scientific progress; and these together have pretty much stomped on a literal interpretation of Genesis. However, there are stories in the Bible can be analysed in a literal fashion because at one time people believed the stories in the Bible to be literal-historical facts. However, I realise that many Christians don't have this view these days and see such stories as some kind of parable. But even this interpretive method requires some absurd mental gymnastics on occasions. For example, if the story of Abraham's attempted sacrifice of his son did not happen literally (which it probably did not), what are we supposed to learn from it? That some man was willing to kill his own son just to prove he loved God more than his son? And why would God want someone to do this anyway? It's still unethical; even if God knew he wasn't going to let Abraham go through with it, Abraham himself did not know until he was ready to drive the knife into Isaac. No sane, moral person today would kill their own child to prove they loved God more than their child. And if anyone actually tried this in today's world, they would be arrested. The only thing I can learn from the story of Abraham is how much more moral society is today and how we don't need such gruesome stories as are often found in the Bible to guide us to live more ethical lives. The Bible is therefore outdated as an instruction book on ethics and morality.

 

[Believe the Impossible]

This really is a trap you're trying to set here. If we vote yes, then you'll think, "Wow! Christians really are immoral!" But if we vote no, then you'll say that we doubt God's right to define morality for us. No matter what we do, it's not going to change your mind about anything.

I agree and so one must ask what is the purpose to the question? How will the answer edify the op or anyone else? The answer is that it does not and will not edify anyone. It is to make God look bad for asking and the Christian, as you have put, look bad irregardless of their answer.

 

[razeontherock]

So what would God have done if the man just let the Ark fall and shatter, and the law and everything with broke?

That's just it; David didn't disobey any specific order. In fact, the Bible doesn't even say why God was angered; we can only assume, since the Bible doesn't say it directly. This is fact; check for yourself.

NONSENSE! They were all wrong, from the gitgo. The Ark was never intended to be carried the way they were doing it, and all the instructions associated were spelled out, clear as a bell.

 

[razeontherock]

I think the reasons Christians like to make the Bible sound like it has some esoteric message that requires skilled interpretive methods is because they're trying to hide all the nasty stuff in there, or pretend it isn't in there at all.

You're deluding yourself. It is a Spiritual book. Nothing can be plainer than that!

However, there are stories in the Bible can be analysed in a literal fashion because at one time people believed the stories in the Bible to be literal-historical facts. However, I realise that many Christians don't have this view these days and see such stories as some kind of parable.

Time-wise, you have this exactly backwards. The hyper-literalism that jaded you is a modern invention.

But even this interpretive method requires some absurd mental gymnastics on occasions. For example, if the story of Abraham's attempted sacrifice of his son did not happen literally (which it probably did not), what are we supposed to learn from it? That some man was willing to kill his own son just to prove he loved God more than his son?

Your second to last question is actually very good. The problem here, is if it were asked sincerely, you wouldn't go further and propose the next thing you did. This reveals "spirit," and serves as a reasonable working definition of what it is, for you, for now. Many people would like to have this spelled out for them, but since it is so personal that can't be done large-scale.

Now just because the way you proceeded isn't via the Holy Spirit, does not mean you are under satan's influence to procede the way you did. We have a mind, and flesh. It's a bit of a trick to get either to co-operate with the Holy Spirit, but the above paragraph gives you a very practical insight into how you can do that, short-term.

The Bible is therefore outdated as an instruction book on ethics and morality.

It was never such to begin with. Or rather, any section that ever was, is still perfectly valid.

 

[joey_downunder]

Christians keep going on about some mystical way of reading the Bible that they do not care to divulge to non-Christians. As far as I'm concerned the Bible can be read plainly, because it's plainly readable in English. I don't think any special interpretive technique is required to read the Bible; the clues of most passages are often in the context themselves. Only someone with learning difficulties would fail to understand most of Bible. I think the reasons Christians like to make the Bible sound like it has some esoteric message that requires skilled interpretive methods is because they're trying to hide all the nasty stuff in there, or pretend it isn't in there at all.

I have a hint that may help you read the Bible better. Take off the 'Darwin is infallible' T-shirt, the "Dawkins knows theology way better than stupid christians" goggles and then turn off Hitchens' "God is not great" headset.
You are greatly distracted by atheist background noise. Also throw out all the stale charismania fairy floss and vacuum the last of its fairy dust and magical thinking in "your religion is not for me" store room in the back of your head.

Now open your mind to the possibility that you are wrong and resolve to read it as someone who does not know the Bible at all i.e. stop thinking 21st century people automatically know better (and are more moral) than those ancient peoples.

It may be challenging to put down your preconceptions but we christians have to do that all the time as well.

 

[Prayer Circle]

Of course not. One of God's commandments unto us was thou shalt not murder/kill.
Why then would God ask us to break his commandment, when if he wanted someone to be dead, as God, he has the power to do it all on his own. As the Bible reports time and again.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

I have a hint that may help you read the Bible better. Take off the 'Darwin is infallible' T-shirt, the "Dawkins knows theology way better than stupid christians" goggles and then turn off Hitchens' "God is not great" headset.

Stereotype much? I'm not even going to respond to the rest of your post.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

You're deluding yourself. It is a Spiritual book. Nothing can be plainer than that!

OK. Please show me a verse, or passage, in the Bible that you can interpret spiritually that I either cannot interpret at all, or only interpret partially, or will experience difficulty in interpreting in any way. The caveat to this, of course, is that most Christians interpret the Bible differently anyway. However, I can think of no other test with which to do away with the notion that the Bible is a mystical book that only Christians can read, so this test will have to suffice (unless you propose a different one).

 

[razeontherock]

OK. Please show me a verse, or passage, in the Bible that you can interpret spiritually that I either cannot interpret at all, or only interpret partially, or will experience difficulty in interpreting in any way.

Honestly, most of our discussions have been about this very thing! Aspects of Scripture, where I see you espouse an idea that hurts you, is where I originally came in. And I've been very Faithful about addressing that, even at personal expense.

I do think that most parts of Scripture can indeed be read simply and result in at least some level of understanding, but the biggest thing that will help you is this:

"resolve to read it as someone who does not know the Bible at all

It may be challenging to put down your preconceptions but we Christians have to do that all the time as well."

And I think the place for you to start is the Gospel of John, precisely because you WILL come away with understanding. Reading right through to the end of the Bible will focus your attention on what is most helpful. Even if you skip over books you choose to reject.

The caveat to this, of course, is that most Christians interpret the Bible differently anyway.

This is not the problem you make it out to be. I have explained why that is to you, in many different ways now. We are each unique, and G-d is not interesting in stripping our individuality away; He made it!

And again I refer you to Joseph's coat of many colors. Not to test you, prove you wrong, nor trick you; but to let that seed germinate until it grows, at which time you will see the relevance and begin to appreciate the beauty of what's going on here. Until then, you have some suffering to endure. Be thankful it's not as much as the prey of the Ichmonidae wasp!

 

[joey_downunder]

Stereotype much? I'm not even going to respond to the rest of your post.

That response did not surprise me. Like other most other atheists you do not seem to want to put much thought into how to read the Bible properly. The only thing that surprises me about your entries is your amateurish misreading of scriptures. If you are an ex-christian your standards should be higher than most biblically illiterate atheists.

Much of what you type shows you have adopted an inflated sense of personal and moral superiority towards your "straw man God". If you want to be taken seriously at all in your future contributions to this forum then have the courage to take off that mindset. Stop assuming that christians only receive knowledge of the Bible that atheists do not via mystical experiences and brainwashing from their pastors.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

Honestly, most of our discussions have been about this very thing! Aspects of Scripture, where I see you espouse an idea that hurts you, is where I originally came in. And I've been very Faithful about addressing that, even at personal expense.

I do think that most parts of Scripture can indeed be read simply and result in at least some level of understanding, but the biggest thing that will help you is this:

"resolve to read it as someone who does not know the Bible at all

It may be challenging to put down your preconceptions but we Christians have to do that all the time as well."

And I think the place for you to start is the Gospel of John, precisely because you WILL come away with understanding. Reading right through to the end of the Bible will focus your attention on what is most helpful. Even if you skip over books you choose to reject.

This is not the problem you make it out to be. I have explained why that is to you, in many different ways now. We are each unique, and G-d is not interesting in stripping our individuality away; He made it!

And again I refer you to Joseph's coat of many colors. Not to test you, prove you wrong, nor trick you; but to let that seed germinate until it grows, at which time you will see the relevance and begin to appreciate the beauty of what's going on here. Until then, you have some suffering to endure. Be thankful it's not as much as the prey of the Ichmonidae wasp!

I have no problem with the Gospels. I quite like Jesus, when he's not talking about eternal punishment.

Also, you didn't answer my question at all. You keep claiming that I interpret the Bible wrong, and it seems someone else in this thread has jumped on that bandwagon too. What use is it to suggest I read the book of John if I cannot interpret the Bible correctly because it is a spiritual book? Seeing as I am supposedly spiritually dead, there is no point in me picking up the Bible because I won't understand it. This is the flaw in your position, as I see it anyway.

So I would still like to find something in the Bible that I can test this with; a verse or passage that cannot be interpreted by a spiritually dead person such as myself.

Also, what makes you think I don't read the Bible with an open mind anyway? I've actually been reading through Matthew recently and have been trying to remain as objective as possible. Of course, I'm probably interpreting it all wrong.

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

That response did not surprise me. Like other most other atheists you do not seem to want to put much thought into how to read the Bible properly. .

Then why don't you enlighten me rather than continuing with your stereotyping. How do I read the Bible properly?

If you read above, I asked Raze to offer me a passage or verse of scripture that can only be understood spiritually and not intellectually. Would you care to take this test? Or do you wish to keep throwing insults at me?

 

[rturner76]

Grumpy Old Man Let me try!

I think like another poster eluded to is that it's not the verse that you can't interpret, it's obviously the same one we all read. It's the mind set you read it with. If you read it thinking "Ok, show me something I don't know" or "Ok here's your chance God, enlighten me" you likely WILL miss the point. My theory and it's just a theory is the difference between you and a "Christian" is that a Christian is reading the Bible with the doubt already out of the way and are just looking for the lesson contained within said Bible. That would not be possible for you because you have doubt so like Raze said, read it with no preconceptions or better yet like IT COULD BE TRUE maybe if you can suspend belief that much?

Or simply skip the parts you can't buy and read the parts you can. THere is a lot of stuff in there that is just about life

I am saying this with all due respect. I hope you are sincere about wanting to give this a try. I hope you find what you are looking for even if it isn't in the Bible. Giving it an honest look will be good for you so at least you can say to yourself that you gave it everything you had. Even try again later

Oh yeah, I have found that for me at least, I wasn't as open to "God" until my life went to the toilet. COuld be that your just too together and need your life to fall apart before you're open to something ANYTHING to get me out of this stinkhole.

 

[joey_downunder]

Then why don't you enlighten me rather than continuing with your stereotyping. How do I read the Bible properly?

If you read above, I asked Raze to offer me a passage or verse of scripture that can only be understood spiritually and not intellectually. Would you care to take this test? Or do you wish to keep throwing insults at me?

Firstly I am being blunt because you are obviously intelligent but you are choosing to misinterpret scripture to justify your unbelief. I am patient with people who do not (or cannot) understand. I am definitely not insulting you. BTW I do not waste time on people I think are trolls so that is a back-handed compliment.

How about a verse from Proverbs for a starter:
The fear of the LORD is the beginning of wisdom,
and the knowledge of the Holy One is insight. (Proverbs 9:10)

Do you understand why that is true?

 

[Grumpy Old Man]

My theory and it's just a theory is the difference between you and a "Christian" is that a Christian is reading the Bible with the doubt already out of the way and are just looking for the lesson contained within said Bible. That would not be possible for you because you have doubt so like Raze said, read it with no preconceptions or better yet like IT COULD BE TRUE maybe if you can suspend belief that much?

There is quite a lot of stuff I read in the Bible with no preconceptions. As I said to Raze earlier, I'm reading through Matthew right now. However, there comes a point when I'm just not willing to believe certain things - the virgin birth for example. Why should I believe this? Not that it matters anyway; according to Jesus and Paul, the only requirement for salvation is to believe in Jesus and his resurrection. They mentioned nothing about having to believe in virgin births or other strange and unprovable miracles in order to attain salvation.

Oh yeah, I have found that for me at least, I wasn't as open to "God" until my life went to the toilet. COuld be that your just too together and need your life to fall apart before you're open to something ANYTHING to get me out of this stinkhole.

This is really quite a horrible thing to say. I need my life to fall apart? Really? So if God causes some disaster in my life, it'll make me turn to him? That's like me saying in order to get a girl to love me I have to beat the crap out of her.

Also, if your faith is based on nothing but God making your life hell, you better pray he doesn't bless you.

 

[rturner76]

This is really quite a horrible thing to say. I need my life to fall apart? Really? So if God causes some disaster in my life, it'll make me turn to him? That's like me saying in order to get a girl to love me I have to beat the crap out of her.

Also, if your faith is based on nothing but God making your life hell, you better pray he doesn't bless you.

I apologize for the way that came out. I should have just done like they say in group......I statements......I didn't get serious about God until MY life fell apart. I'm sorry to speak that into your life. No, your life should NOT have to fall apart to believe not at all. I shouldn't have said that I didn't mean that, it just happens with some people Like ME for example....I statements RT.

I saw you say something about salvation. This is another thing I would just chuck. You don't believe in hell now right? Chuck it out man! I don't believe in it either even though some Christians would try to slap me down for it. In my book the sacrifice has been made and the price has been paid and that's it.

Sorry, that was more you statements......I just focus on the lessons about how to be a better person and chuck the dogma stuff. I mean I go along with a lot of it once I began to be more open to it but the main thing especially in the beginning was just...oh, it's it Matthew.....The beattitudes, that's all I need. As long as I got the beattitudes, I got the whole thing wrapped up.

And he opened his mouth and taught them, saying:

3 “Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4 “Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.

5 “Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.

6 “Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness, for they shall be satisfied.

7 “Blessed are the merciful, for they shall receive mercy.

8 “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.

9 “Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons[a] of God.

10 “Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake, for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 “Blessed are you when others revile you and persecute you and utter all kinds of evil against you falsely on my account. 12 Rejoice and be glad, for your reward is great in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you.

Salt and Light

13 “You are the salt of the earth, but if salt has lost its taste, how shall its saltiness be restored? It is no longer good for anything except to be thrown out and trampled under people's feet.

14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do people light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a stand, and it gives light to all in the house. 16 In the same way, let your light shine before others, so that they may see your good works and give glory to your Father who is in heaven.