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World's most sensitive dark matter detector finds nothing (again). :(

lesliedellow

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I'm thinking Leslie that your concept of a "static" universe is a bit misguided. All the galaxies are rotating around a center of mass related to the local galaxy cluster it sits in. The stars of a given galaxy are all in motion around a heavy massive object at the center of every galaxy, and the planets rotate around the stars. It's not "static" as in "non moving", it's only moving and rotating in a relatively organized (and repetitive) pattern in organized mass energy concentrations. It's all in motion and it will remain in motion even if minor mass energy distributions take place from time to time.

So there is a gravitational field between galaxy clusters. How far are you prepared to take this? Kurt Godel demonstrated that time travel into the past would be possible in a rotating universe.
 
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Michael

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So there is a gravitational field between galaxy clusters. How far are you prepared to take this? Kurt Godel demonstrated that time travel into the past would be possible in a rotating universe.

How big is the universe? :) I'm not sure about the time travel aspect, but the rotation patterns look to be quite mature, and very organized.
 
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Michael

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http://www.livescience.com/54545-axion-like-particles-probably-not-a-dark-matter-answer.html

FYI, the spectacular blow out of WIMP theory is actually the second major empirical blow to exotic matter theories this year. Apparently axion-like particles won't fill in the gaps correctly, and now the most sensitive lab "test" of "cold dark matter" theory that has ever been done to date has turned up nothing. This is all on top of the LHC blowout of all the popular brands of SUSY theory.

Now keep in mind that *numerous* baronic galaxy mass estimation problems have been "discovered" since 2006, and all these results are consistent with a *lack of any need* for exotic forms of matter to explain lensing patterns, and rotation patterns which were based upon flawed mass estimation techniques.

Is there actually any falsification method possible with exotic "cold dark matter" theories (plural)? If it's not falsifiable, in what way is "cold dark matter" theory/hypothesis a form of "science"?
 
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Michael

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http://www.spacedaily.com/reports/A...g_spin_of_the_Milky_Way_galaxys_halo_999.html

"This flies in the face of expectations," says Edmund Hodges-Kluck, assistant research scientist. "People just assumed that the disk of the Milky Way spins while this enormous reservoir of hot gas is stationary - but that is wrong. This hot gas reservoir is rotating as well, just not quite as fast as the disk."
milky-way-galaxy-companions-surrounded-giant-halo-million-degree-gas-blue-lg.jpg

Emphasis mine.

And oh by the way.....

The "hot gas" (AKA million degree "plasma") that surrounds the galaxies which they only found in 2012 also rotates at about the same speed as the rest of the disk, so a halo of hot plasma sure *acts* like a "dark matter" halo too. :)
 
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Centers of masses exist pretty much everywhere in an infinite and eternal universe.

I have only just started reading on EU theory. In such a universe, how do you explain Olber's Paradox (if the universe is infinite and eternal, why is the sky not full of stars) and the Heat Death Paradox (if the universe is eternal, why is it not already at thermodynamic equilibrium)?
 
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Michael

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I have only just started reading on EU theory. In such a universe, how do you explain Olber's Paradox (if the universe is infinite and eternal, why is the sky not full of stars) and the Heat Death Paradox (if the universe is eternal, why is it not already at thermodynamic equilibrium)?

Welcome to ChristianForums. :)

Since your first post is directed at EU theory, I'll do my best to respond to your questions. I'd start by noting that Eddington did actually predict a universe at thermodynamic equilibrium that was within 1/2 of one degree of the correct number that we call a "background temperature". It was based upon the concept of the scattering/absorption of starlight on dust and molecules in spacetime.

The short answer to your question about Obler's Paradox is "dust and distance", and the universe *is* radiating at thermodynamic equilibrium.

With respect to that background temperature that Eddington predicted based on scattering, we still do observe "bright spots" and "dark regions" in microwave background images that are directly related to galaxy concentration patterns in specific regions of space. In fact the background images that we typically see from NASA that show a nearly homogeneously 'smooth' background are typically *highly processed* images that go to great lengths to filter out all foreground effects from dust around our own galaxy, and from various galaxies and objects in our local galaxy cluster. In short, the "dark sky" isn't really dark, it radiates at a basic background temperature as Eddington predicted.

FYI, Edwin Hubble also preferred a static universe/tired light explanation for photon redshift. This explanation for photon redshift is empirically congruent with the observation of *many* types of inelastic scattering processes in plasma in the lab.
 
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Welcome to ChristianForums. :)

Thanks! I've been lurking here for a while, but this thread piqued my interest enough to register.

As I understand it, you are saying that the CMB "is" the universe in thermodynamic equilibrium? And therefore the answer to the Heat Death Paradox is that we are already there?

As for Olber's Paradox, any intervening dust would eventually glow at the same brightness as the starlight in an infinite static universe, so the result would be the same.

I see you gave "tired light" as an explanation for some of the difficulties with EU theory. Fritz Zwicky, who proposed tired light in 1929, himself pointed out several theoretical problems (one of which is that distant objects should be blurrier than they were already known to be at the time). Since then, experiment has caught up with theory and has demonstrated this theory unsound in other ways. One of these is the measurement of surface brightness of distant objects - under tired light theory, the surface brightness of various objects should be a constant (and it is not).
 
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Michael

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Thanks! I've been lurking here for a while, but this thread piqued my interest enough to register.

As I understand it, you are saying that the CMB "is" the universe in thermodynamic equilibrium? And therefore the answer to the Heat Death Paradox is that we are already there?

More accurately I'm suggesting your "paradoxes" are gross oversimplifications, and really don't apply once we get to a "dusty plasma", current carrying environment. Many of those concepts were proposed when "space" was believed to mostly be a "vacuum". We now know that spacetime is much dustier than we first believed, and the distances involved ensure that intensity and absorption play a major role in what we're able to observe on Earth.

As Eddington "predicted" the "dust" between the stars was likely to achieve a temperature equilibrium of sorts. Dust picks up photon energy and releases it over time. Actually Eddington nailed the number to within 1/2 of degree. It took "big bangers" at least three tries before they got any closer, and maybe half a dozen. The first "estimates" from big bang theory were off by an entire order of magnitude.

As for Olber's Paradox, any intervening dust would eventually glow at the same brightness as the starlight in an infinite static universe, so the result would be the same.

No it wouldn't. Light wouldn't be guaranteed to be emitted at us "line of sight", even if *had* to stay at exactly the same wavelength, which of course it doesn't. You're grossly oversimplifying the issue, and "assuming" a much less "dusty" environment.

I see you gave "tired light" as an explanation for some of the difficulties with EU theory. Fritz Zwicky, who proposed tired light in 1929, himself pointed out several theoretical problems (one of which is that distant objects should be blurrier than they were already known to be at the time).

You're right that in the hope of selling his own "tired light" theory, Zwicky noted the problem with assuming that all inelastic scattering was due to Compton scattering, *one* type of inelastic scattering. Fortunately there are many other options to choose from. :) As I recall Zwicky was suggesting a concept related to GR theory. I'm open to the concept, it's just that I think "better" options exist in the realm of scattering.

In fact, one of the serious "flaws" in the landmark 2006 "dark matter" paper was it's reliance upon a brightness formula that underestimated the amount of light that is being absorbed by the dusty plasma medium of spacetime. They missed that number by a factor of two, but it's not the worst of their mass estimate flaws either. :)

http://www.scientificamerican.com/gallery/universe-now-twice-as-bright/

Since then, experiment has caught up with theory and has demonstrated this theory unsound in other ways. One of these is the measurement of surface brightness of distant objects - under tired light theory, the surface brightness of various objects should be a constant (and it is not).

Actually tired light theory passes two very important observational "tests", including surface brightness tests, whereas BB theory only passes one of them:

http://www.sci-news.com/astronomy/science-universe-not-expanding-01940.html
http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/0004-637X/781/2/96/meta

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss static universe theory yet. It's still an option, but of course it's not the "only" option in EU/PC theory:

http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0601171

EU theory allows for an expanding universe, in fact Alfven wrote about that very concept. One might simply "interpret" the redshift as a type of time dilation in EU theory, and include the concept of *object movement* if one is so inclined. Again, there's no need to resort to "expanding space", or to exit the realm of empirical physics when looking for solutions to photon redshift.

FYI, the last "falsification" of WIMP theory at LUX is just the *most recent* of a long list of flaws found in the baryonic mass estimates used in that 2006 lensing paper, and lab failures related to "dark matter" theory.

All EU/PC theory does is take out the "dark"/metaphysical components of astronomy out of astronomy and replaces them with ordinary plasma physics and ordinary empirical alternatives.

http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/...&t=15850&sid=c875b2f0fa2582f7b27ecbd88ef00cfc
 
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More accurately I'm suggesting your "paradoxes" are gross oversimplifications, and really don't apply once we get to a "dusty plasma", current carrying environment.

I'm saying that your answers are gross complications ;)

Many of those concepts were proposed when "space" was believed to mostly be a "vacuum". We now know that spacetime is much dustier than we first believed, and the distances involved ensure that intensity and absorption play a major role in what we're able to observe on Earth.

A lot of the concepts you are talking about were first proposed when "space" was believed to contain an "ether". Yes, the estimates of interstellar and intergalactic material have changed, but the observational effects of these are well known. "Space", on average, is still pretty much a vacuum. About 1 molecule per cm^3, mostly ionized gas with a tiny fraction of dust.

As Eddington "predicted" the "dust" between the stars was likely to achieve a temperature equilibrium of sorts. Dust picks up photon energy and releases it over time. Actually Eddington nailed the number to within 1/2 of degree. It took "big bangers" at least three tries before they got any closer, and maybe half a dozen. The first "estimates" from big bang theory were off by an entire order of magnitude.

Indeed, Eddington calculated the energy density, and thus the "average temperature" of interstaller space, but the spectrum of this energy in his model does not fit observation. It is also irrelevant to the Big Bang, as the interstellar radiation field is not the same as the CMB, and the two are observationally different.

It also doesn't help answer either paradox - you might call this interstellar field "thermal equilibrium", but the universe is certainly not in thermal equilibrium, as the presence of stars and the ability to perform useful work shows.

In fact, taken from Eddington's 1926 book The Eternal Constitution of the Stars:

"Radiation in interstellar space is about as far from thermodynamical equilibrium as it is possible to imagine, and although its density corresponds to 3.18degK it is much richer in high-frequency constituents than equilibrium radiation of that temperature."

Interestingly, Eddington also proved that a static model of the universe (based on fine-tuning the Cosmological Constant in Einstein's GR) is unstable.

Light wouldn't be guaranteed to be emitted at us "line of sight", even if *had* to stay at exactly the same wavelength, which of course it doesn't. You're grossly oversimplifying the issue, and "assuming" a much less "dusty" environment.

Dust doesn't get you out of this one, and even if it did, it certainly doesn't help you with the fact that an eternal infinite universe would continue to approach thermal equilibrium, leading to the Heat Death Paradox.

You're right that in the hope of selling his own "tired light" theory, Zwicky noted the problem with assuming that all inelastic scattering was due to Compton scattering, *one* type of inelastic scattering. Fortunately there are many other options to choose from. :) As I recall Zwicky was suggesting a concept related to GR theory. I'm open to the concept, it's just that I think "better" options exist in the realm of scattering.

He proposed a redshifting due to "the difference of the static gravitational potential at different distances from the center of a galaxy", but also himself notes that this would produce redshifts unrelated to the distance to that galaxy, which contradicted measurements available at the time.

He also very kindly provided a falsifiable prediction from this - that the absorption lines would also be widened. Since then, observation has again caught up to theory and falsified it.

In fact, one of the serious "flaws" in the landmark 2006 "dark matter" paper was it's reliance upon a brightness formula that underestimated the amount of light that is being absorbed by the dusty plasma medium of spacetime. They missed that number by a factor of two, but it's not the worst of their mass estimate flaws either. :)

http://www.scientificamerican.com/gallery/universe-now-twice-as-bright/

Not sure how this is relevant - this "twice as bright" result is due to observing that the interstellar dust (not intergalactic!) builds up along the plane of a galaxy, and not towards the center.

Actually tired light theory passes two very important observational "tests", including surface brightness tests, whereas BB theory only passes one of them:

http://www.sci-news.com/astronomy/science-universe-not-expanding-01940.html
http://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1088/0004-637X/781/2/96/meta

The paper by Lerner re-works existing surface brightness data into a Static Euclidean Universe with "a linear Hubble Relation at all z". It also very specifically refuses to comment on what might cause this (such as a tired-light mechanism). I suppose that this shows the current data can be re-worked into another consistent model, but the authors seem aware that tired-light has a number of other issues (which it does) that preclude it from consideration.

The Alcock-Paczyński paper concludes that:

"Only two of the six models above fit the data of the Alcock-Paczyński test: concordance ΛCDM and static universe with tired-light redshift"

Which doesn't help you much either.

I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss static universe theory yet.

I would be, it has been theoretically and observationally falsified.

It's still an option, but of course it's not the "only" option in EU/PC theory:

http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0601171

I'll read that a bit more carefully, but I don't see how it helps here. It appears to swap expansion of space in a Friedman Model to some kind of time dilation, using an observer "moving with the speed of light".

EU theory allows for an expanding universe, in fact Alfven wrote about that very concept. One might simply "interpret" the redshift as a type of time dilation in EU theory, and include the concept of *object movement* if one is so inclined. Again, there's no need to resort to "expanding space", or to exit the realm of empirical physics when looking for solutions to photon redshift.

FYI, the last "falsification" of WIMP theory at LUX is just the *most recent* of a long list of flaws found in the baryonic mass estimates used in that 2006 lensing paper, and lab failures related to "dark matter" theory.

All EU/PC theory does is take out the "dark"/metaphysical components of astronomy out of astronomy and replaces them with ordinary plasma physics and ordinary empirical alternatives.

http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/...&t=15850&sid=c875b2f0fa2582f7b27ecbd88ef00cfc

I wasn't really here to discuss EU theory, as we started with Static Eternal Universes and "tired light". What is the link between EU theory and SEU's/tired light? Is it because EU theory needs some kind of explanation for redshift, and the only other explanation offered is Alfven's "time dilation is object movement"? I would be curious to see a link to that.

While we're on the subject of exiting the realm of empirical physics, one of us certainly is doing so ;-)

All EU/PC theory does is take out the "dark"/metaphysical components of astronomy out of astronomy and replaces them with

a type of time dilation in EU theory, and include the concept of *object movement* if one is so inclined.
 
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Michael

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I'm saying that your answers are gross complications ;)

The mainstream has consistently tried to oversimplify the conditions of spacetime since the dawn of "astronomy". First they began by assuming a "vacuum" was all that existed between objects in space. We now know that plasma and plasma threads connect all the dots. :)

When the mainstream first tried to "model" plasma, it treated plasma like a "gas", and assumed it pretty much acted like a "gas". They also "ignored/dumbed down", the whole electrical aspect, and they only consider the *magnetic* aspects to this very day, to the nearly complete exclusion of all of the electrical aspects.

I'm afraid that mainstream astronomers have a long history of grossly oversimplifying conditions in space, and it's just as prevalent today as it's ever been with respect to electric fields in spacetime, and the oversimplified ways they treat plasma. Alfven called their models "pseudoscience" till the day he died.

Astronomers oversimplify everything which is why they require so much metaphysical nonsense as "gap filler" in their understanding of the universe. LCDM hypothesis is a full 95 percent gap filler now, and 5 percent "pseudoscience" according to the author of MHD theory.

A lot of the concepts you are talking about were first proposed when "space" was believed to contain an "ether".

Spacetime does contain an electromagnetic aether of sorts. When photons traverse a changing magnetic field, it produces a process known as "Brillouin scattering" by the way. There are lots of possibilities as it relates to inelastic scattering in space, including the effect of EM field gradients and temperature gradients in spacetime, not just *just* Compton scattering. FYI, Holushko did a pretty nice job describing a "tired light" model that is related to that "bumpy road" concept with respect to photon emissions. It was even "put to the test" in that other study that I cited for you, and it's one of only two cosmology models that does pass that particular test.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Inelastic_scattering

Yes, the estimates of interstellar and intergalactic material have changed, but the observational effects of these are well known.

Er no, your collective beliefs on this topic are well entrenched in "dogma" at the moment, nothing more. Astronomers have been underestimating mass continuously since the dawn of time. :) Just look at all those "missing baryons" that showed up in 2012. That "missing mass" (in 2006) makes up *more* baryonic mass than all the previous mass they had ever found in human history prior to 2012.

"Space", on average, is still pretty much a vacuum. About 1 molecule per cm^3, mostly ionized gas with a tiny fraction of dust.

That is again a gross oversimplification. The universe is *threaded* because of the currents that generate those threads. The threads are more dense, and clouds of all kinds are more dense than that 'average' you're describing.

Indeed, Eddington calculated the energy density, and thus the "average temperature" of interstaller space, but the spectrum of this energy in his model does not fit observation.

It does well enough for a basic calculation, and there isn't any *published* material that supports your claim, just some lame unpublished rant by Ned Wright. Please cite me a *published* paper to support your claim.

It is also irrelevant to the Big Bang, as the interstellar radiation field is not the same as the CMB, and the two are observationally different.

No they are not. What we observe is exactly what Eddington expected to observe, namely a "background radiation" that was directly related to dust being heated by starlight. There is a "background" temperature of spacetime related to that dust/light interaction in spacetime. So what? It took "big bangers" more several tries to get *closer than Eddington", and their first "prediction" was off by an entire order of magnitude! Some "prediction". That was about the *worst* prediction of "big bang" theory, except for the "prediction" the expansion slowed down over time. :) That botched prediction required 70 percent metaphysical gap filler to patch BB "theory?" back together again.

It also doesn't help answer either paradox - you might call this interstellar field "thermal equilibrium", but the universe is certainly not in thermal equilibrium, as the presence of stars and the ability to perform useful work shows.

Neither "paradox" is applicable. If the suns stopped producing heat, the heat would *dissipate* over time. If anything you'd have a "cold death" scenario related to such a complete mass/energy dissipation process. The only thing that continues to emit heat is the stars, otherwise "spacetime" is cold. Eddington explained that whole aspect of energy distribution.

"Radiation in interstellar space is about as far from thermodynamical equilibrium as it is possible to imagine, and although its density corresponds to 3.18degK it is much richer in high-frequency constituents than equilibrium radiation of that temperature."

He was right about that point too due to the nature of stars, and their *electrical* components. That's why suns emit more x-ray and gamma-rays than would be "predicted" by a "black body" calculation.

Interestingly, Eddington also proved that a static model of the universe (based on fine-tuning the Cosmological Constant in Einstein's GR) is unstable.

I'm afraid Eddington got overruled by Alfven's inclusion of circuit theory. :)

Dust doesn't get you out of this one, and even if it did, it certainly doesn't help you with the fact that an eternal infinite universe would continue to approach thermal equilibrium, leading to the Heat Death Paradox.

No. First of all there would be no "heat death" going on if all mass/energy of the universe was evenly distributed throughout spacetime. In fact it would be rather cold. The "heat sources" for the "dust" of spactime that Eddington describes are *stars*, and starlight. Gravity and momentum ensures the fact that the universe will remain "lumpy", and that it never will be in perfect thermal equilibrium, or achieve a perfect mass/energy distribution over time. Your whole "heat death" argument is *moot point* in the *real* universe, and it technically would be a "cool death", not a hot one.

Eddington's "background temperature" of dust explains your Obler's paradox too. *Dust* converts energy into lower states of energy, ultimately the ones we observe in CMB images.

He proposed a redshifting due to "the difference of the static gravitational potential at different distances from the center of a galaxy", but also himself notes that this would produce redshifts unrelated to the distance to that galaxy, which contradicted measurements available at the time.

Well, either way, he didn't "assume" that it was a "Doppler" shift related phenomenon. I think he remained open minded toward Zwicky's "tired light" ideas as I recall.

He also very kindly provided a falsifiable prediction from this - that the absorption lines would also be widened. Since then, observation has again caught up to theory and falsified it.

I'm not sure why he expected absorption lines to be "widened", but there are plenty of newer options on the table since that time. :) Holushko's model was even put to the mathematical test for you in that Alcock-Paczyński test and it passed. :)

Not sure how this is relevant - this "twice as bright" result is due to observing that the interstellar dust (not intergalactic!) builds up along the plane of a galaxy, and not towards the center.

Either way, it's just *one* of at least *ten* different observations/falsification related to the flawed baryonic mass estimates used in that 2006 paper, and/or lab tests of "dark matter" theory in the past decade. How many "fails" does it take to kill a bad idea that was born of basic ignorance related to mass/energy concentrations in various galaxies? They even botched the stellar mass estimates in those lensing studies by a whopping factor of between 3 and 20 times depending on the size of the star and the type of galaxy.

The paper by Lerner re-works existing surface brightness data into a Static Euclidean Universe with "a linear Hubble Relation at all z". It also very specifically refuses to comment on what might cause this (such as a tired-light mechanism).

The other paper I cited selected one such tired light mechanism.

I suppose that this shows the current data can be re-worked into another consistent model,

Ya, one that doesn't require 95 percent metaphysics. That fact alone piques my interest. :)

but the authors seem aware that tired-light has a number of other issues (which it does) that preclude it from consideration.

Where did that occur? Which authors? Which sentence?

The Alcock-Paczyński paper concludes that:

"Only two of the six models above fit the data of the Alcock-Paczyński test: concordance ΛCDM and static universe with tired-light redshift"

Which doesn't help you much either.

Actually it helps me a great deal. :) I long ago presented Holushko's "tired light" paper for consideration. It's no surprise to me that it "passes" such tests, in fact I assumed it would pass all such tests, and it does.

I would be, it has been theoretically and observationally falsified.

When? By which exhaustive and published study of inelastic scattering was it falsified? I've shown you two observational tests that it passes with flying colors. How was it "observationally falsified" in your mind?

I'll read that a bit more carefully, but I don't see how it helps here. It appears to swap expansion of space in a Friedman Model to some kind of time dilation, using an observer "moving with the speed of light".

It helps in the sense that real movement of real objects and simple time dilation (from GR) would explain these observations without any need of 'space expansion' or the other metaphysical aspects of "space acceleration", etc. Now it's also possible its a "combo deal" where inelastic scattering is "partially" the cause, and movement of objects/time dilation might explain the rest.

I wasn't really here to discuss EU theory, as we started with Static Eternal Universes and "tired light". What is the link between EU theory and SEU's/tired light? Is it because EU theory needs some kind of explanation for redshift, and the only other explanation offered is Alfven's "time dilation is object movement"? I would be curious to see a link to that.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_cosmology#Alfv.C3.A9n-Klein_cosmology

Alfven (unlike Holushko) was inclined to believe that the universe was expanding. EU/PC theory allows for both possibilities, and in fact *all* possibilities related to matter/energy movement patterns.

While we're on the subject of exiting the realm of empirical physics, one of us certainly is doing so ;-)

Well, it's not me. I don't need 95 percent metaphysical gap filler to explain events in spacetime. :)
 
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Michael

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Here's what I don't grasp bicyclerepairman:

http://www.thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15850

If you add the axion observation falsification and the LUX "falsification" from this year, that's at *least* a dozen different "failed tests" that relate to either lab tested failures of dark matter "predictions", observation failures in spacetime (last axion paper), or blatant flaws that were found in the baryonic mass estimates that were used in 2006.

Instead of focusing on that damning information about LCDM theory, you're proposing a "perfect" universe that must glow brightly in every direction at every wavelength, even though astronomers as far back as Eddington were predicting that most if not all that starlight would ultimately be turned into background radiation over distance and time.

EU/PC theory *allows for* both expansion concepts and inelastic scatting options galore to explain photon redshift, and combinations galore. There's no need to resort to non empirical processes to explain photon redshift over distance and time in a plasma environment. It happens all the time in the lab. In fact Chen noted a relationship between the number of free electrons in the plasma and the amount of photon redshift that he observed.
 
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I CBA to debate Electric Universe theory with you, so I'm going to return to my original point: A Static Eternal Universe is subject to a number of issues, two of which are Olber's Paradox and the Heat Death Paradox. I'll stick with Heat Death.

You seem unaware of the meaning of "Heat Death", although you did work out what it means. If it helps, think of it as the "Death of Heat", not "Death by Heat". It is the state of the universe at the end state of the laws of thermodynamics - everything is equally distributed and at an even temperature, which you correctly figured would be very cold.

Your "gravity and momentum" would indeed keep things moving for an exceptionally long time, but in an Infinite Eternal Universe, we have plenty of time ;-) If we were in an Infinite Eternal Universe, it would have already existed for an infinite time (by the very definition of Infinite Eternal Universe), and would therefore already have reached complete thermodynamic equilibrium, or "Heat Death". As our universe is clearly not in that state, we cannot be in an Infinite Eternal Universe. The only way out of this paradox is to adjust our cosmological model (ie, from the Infinite Eternal Universe), or to adjust the Laws of Thermodynamics.

My "heat death argument" is not a moot point in our universe either - there's a good chance that's where we're going.

I will say a little on your fascination with dust and the work of Eddington. It seems you are saying that the measured CMB "is" the background interstellar radiation predicted by Eddington. The only similarity between the CMB and the interstellar radiation is the coincidence that Eddington's value for the "effective temperature" of the interstellar medium, 3.18K, is close to the the CMB blackbody spectrum of 2.725K.

Both the CMB and the interstellar medium also have a power spectrum, as well as the "average temperature". These are completely different (by observation). The CMB is not the background interstellar radiation, because we have measured them both!

Your "big bangers" are not trying to improve on Eddington's work - they are working in an entirely different field of cosmology.
 
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Michael

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I CBA to debate Electric Universe theory with you, so I'm going to return to my original point:

It's a pity IMO that you're disinterested in a form of pure empirical physics, but so be it. :(

A Static Eternal Universe is subject to a number of issues, two of which are Olber's Paradox and the Heat Death Paradox. I'll stick with Heat Death.

You seem unaware of the meaning of "Heat Death", although you did work out what it means. If it helps, think of it as the "Death of Heat", not "Death by Heat". It is the state of the universe at the end state of the laws of thermodynamics - everything is equally distributed and at an even temperature, which you correctly figured would be very cold.

Ah, well that does make more sense, but it's still not really applicable IMO, mostly due to gravity.

Your "gravity and momentum" would indeed keep things moving for an exceptionally long time, but in an Infinite Eternal Universe, we have plenty of time ;-)

True, but since energy cannot be created nor destroyed, some form of mass/energy has existed eternally.

If we were in an Infinite Eternal Universe, it would have already existed for an infinite time (by the very definition of Infinite Eternal Universe), and would therefore already have reached complete thermodynamic equilibrium, or "Heat Death".

Not necessarily:

http://www.academia.edu/8115243/The...usion_Gravitational_Collapse_and_Dissociation
http://arxiv.org/abs/astro-ph/0511379

Gravity (and static electricity by the way) will ensure that mass/energy will never be evenly distributed. There's simply no reason to believe that would or could ever happen, particularly in an "infinite" universe.

http://www.skyandtelescope.com/astronomy-news/building-planets-in-plastic-bags/

As our universe is clearly not in that state, we cannot be in an Infinite Eternal Universe.

I'm afraid that's simply a circular argument. You begin with the premise that nature *requires* an even distribution of energy. You never demonstrated that claim.

The only way out of this paradox is to adjust our cosmological model (ie, from the Infinite Eternal Universe), or to adjust the Laws of Thermodynamics.

Actually we don't have to either. The laws of physics tell us that energy cannot be created, nor can it be destroyed. It can rearrange itself, and forces like gravity and electric fields will always cause the mass/energy concentration to be less than uniform.

My "heat death argument" is not a moot point in our universe either - there's a good chance that's where we're going.

Why is that a 'requirement'? You might take a gander at that paper I suggested. If neutrons are the "primordial" form of matter, they can be concentrated, exploded, and re-concentrated any number of times over eternity.

I will say a little on your fascination with dust and the work of Eddington. It seems you are saying that the measured CMB "is" the background interstellar radiation predicted by Eddington.

Eddington's work demonstrates that the dust in space *does* have a "background temperature". It's therefore no surprise that the universe has such a "background" temperature, and a background temperature isn't the exclusive prediction of big bang theory.

The only similarity between the CMB and the interstellar radiation is the coincidence that Eddington's value for the "effective temperature" of the interstellar medium, 3.18K, is close to the the CMB blackbody spectrum of 2.725K.

It wasn't a "coincidence". Even during his lifetime he had enough basic information about light and dust to make a really good "ballpark" prediction of the background temperature of the universe. Big bangers missed the "prediction" by over a whole order of magnitude! It took big bangers 3 or 4 tries to get any closer than Eddington.

Both the CMB and the interstellar medium also have a power spectrum, as well as the "average temperature". These are completely different (by observation). The CMB is not the background interstellar radiation, because we have measured them both!

Even that power spectrum prediction falls apart at the largest scales. It turns out that there are hemispheric variations in the CMB that *defy* LCDM predictions. So much for that claim too.

Your "big bangers" are not trying to improve on Eddington's work - they are working in an entirely different field of cosmology.

Unfortunately it's mostly a metaphysical field of mythical cosmology, combined with a smattering of "pseudoscience" according to the author of MHD theory. :(

There have been more than a dozen different *failed predictions* of ''cold dark matter" theory over the past decade. That's more than 1 per year on average. How many negative results does it take to falsify any metaphysical claim?
 
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Michael

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http://www.popsci.com/large-hadron-collider-just-disappointed-lot-physicists

FYI, It would appear that the recent "hype" about extending the standard particle physics model turned out to be overly optimistic. Just the fact that EU/PC theory is entirely consistent with the standard particle physics model should be enough to pique your curiosity a bit.

There were over a dozen falsifications of "dark matter" theory "predictions" done both in the lab, and from observations in space over the past decade. After spending *billions* of dollars (with a B) at LHC, there is not even a hint that the standard particle physics model is incomplete.

What evidence can you present that "cold dark matter" theory has any scientific merit whatsoever?
 
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Michael

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Based upon the results of "dark matter' theory this year, and the various revelations over the past decade, I'm beginning to wonder if it's even possible to falsify an exotic matter of the gaps claim that is ultimately based upon a seriously flawed uncontrolled observation from a decade ago, and a begging the question fallacy.

The premise of the existence of exotic forms of matter is itself a form of begging the question, particularly in light of the revelations of serious stellar mass underestimates used in 2006, and the discovery of million degree plasma clouds around galaxies that apparently 'rotate' just like a 'dark matter halo", which contain more mass than all the stars in the galaxy combined, and wasn't even 'discovered' until 2012.

When we then look at the lab results, the results of follow up WIMP and axion models, there simply isn't any tangible evidence whatsoever to validate the deviation from the standard particle physics model. It's purely an 'act of faith' to suggest otherwise.

While it's logical to 'test' various ideas, there reaches a point logically where further 'searching' really isn't warranted by the data. It seems like we're quickly reaching that point with exotic matter theory, and it's pretty much the doomsday scenario for string theory and LCDM proponents. :)

When is it appropriate to look for more mundane, and more 'plasma' oriented solutions to these lensing cosmology studies, particularly in light of the stellar miscounts that were going on in that 2006 lensing study, and the constant reconfirmation of the standard particle physics model?

IMO it's rather obvious that the now infamous 2006 lensing study represented 'proof' of stellar and plasma mass underestimates that were being used in the 2006 lensing study 'guestimations' of baryonic mass. In no way did those scientists find 'proof' of exotic forms of matter. The very fact that paper even passed peer review while using the term 'proof' in science demonstrates just how sloppy the peer review process really was. Nobody can ''prove" anything in science. We can simply offer evidence to support an idea, or we cannot. In this case there is ample evidence that the baryonic mass estimates that were used in 2006 were not worth the paper that they were printed on.

http://thunderbolts.info/forum/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=15850&sid=0ae9d817cca2f8dba5f3e97a1a6e0811
 
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Michael

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http://phys.org/news/2016-08-icecube-sterile-neutrino-blank.html

Let's see. This summer alone, WIMP hypotheses, axion hypothesis, and "sterile neutrino" hypothesis about "dark matter" have all come up empty in terms of their predictive usefulness, and not a hint of any extensions to the standard particle physics model have been observed at LHC to date.

When does it become time to turn the page on a "falsified" theory about exotic forms of matter?

The stellar miscounts alone in that hopelessly flawed 2006 "dark matter" study would explain any necessary "missing mass". Every single bit of that so called "dark matter" in that flawed 2006 study is contained in ordinary plasma. Those 2012 revelations about that million degree plasma cloud that surrounds every galaxy and rotates like "dark matter" also solves any "missing baryon problems", and again, it's all found in ordinary plasma.

Every single "test" of exotic matter theory has drawn a blank, and there's never been any need for it to explain that 2006 lensing study, or the rotation patterns of galaxies that are surrounded by massive clouds of rotating high temperature plasma.

Since 99% of the known universe was in a plasma state, it should be no surprise to anyone that most of the "missing mass" in space was also *plasma*.
 
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Michael

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https://press.discovery.com/us/sci/...e-channel-goes-behind-scenes-cern-hunt--3891/

I happened to catch the Discovery Channel presentation of the hunt for the 750 Ghz extension to the standard model. It was rather 'enlightening' IMO.

The moment that there was even a three sigma hint from a limited data set in 2015 that something new might be found, over 300 papers were immediately published to try to "explain" that 750 Ghz spike in the original data sets. The amount of scientific "speculating" and "postdicting" that was going on late last year and early this year was intense. Mathematical speculation was certainly in overdrive last year.

The individuals that they chose to interview for the special also seemed quite certain that additional dimensions of spacetime would *also* be involved in any potential "discovery" of a new particle too. :) I find that particular "assumption" to be fascinating since nothing in the original LHC data set from 2015 *required* additional dimensions of spacetime to exist in nature.

As the newer and more complete data sets came in during 2016 however, it became clear that the 750Ghz "anomaly" in question was simply a statistical fluke in limited data, and there was no actual deviation from the standard particle physics model as they looked at a more complete data set. In short, the standard particle physics model passed another important test, and 300 more postdicted "maths" related to additional dimensions of spactime bit the dust yet again. :)

What exactly *is* the fascination with the need for additional dimensions of spacetime anyway? M-Theory is every bit as "speculative" today as it's ever been, and SUSY theory maths have been *useless* at actually "predicting" anything tangible in particle physics or in astronomy. What's up with that?

I'd have to say that this Discovery special really underscores the state of affairs in particle physics today. We as humans "want" nature to conform to our sense of "beauty". We "want" nature to be "symmetrical", and we "want" it conform to our "pretty" mathematical models, but it doesn't always work out that way.

The standard particle physics model is now 'complete' thanks to the hard work of the folks at LHC. Meanwhile pretty little mathematical SUSY theories (plural) have been falsified by the dozen thanks to LHC too. When does it become appropriate to start accepting the fact that the standard particle physics model may be all that there is, and we may need to toss out "cold dark matter" claims altogether?
 
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Michael

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This thread, particularly it's placement on this particular forum, has really started to make me wonder if there is any empirical difference at all between "faith" and the realm of "science". Since science as a whole allows for metaphysical hypotheses, as well as empirical possibilities, science ultimately tends to dabble in the realm of the "supernatural"

By "supernatural", I mean science posits concepts that are not empirically "known" to humanity, or that are proven "causes" of various effects in controlled experimentation. Ultimately science uses placeholder terms for what amount to human ignorance, to the tune of 95 percent of the universe as of 2016.

I really don't see much empirical difference between sciences like M-theory or LCDM theory and concepts about God. Is the introduction of a single concept like 'God' as a potential "cause" of some effect on Earth really any more outlandish than claiming "dark matter did it"?

Between the lack of anything unusual found at LHC, the various lab failures of dark matter theory in the lab this decade, the failure of axion theories, sterile neutrino concepts, etc, it's really hard to justify having any "faith" in exotic forms of matter. Based on those stellar miscount revelations, it's entirely possible to explain the lensing data from 2006 based on under estimated stellar mass alone, not to mention the million degree plasma cloud that was found in 2012 which evidently rotates in a sphere around and throughout the galaxy, just like "dark matter" predictions. The missing plasma was never even "dark" to begin with. The term "dark" simply related to our human ignorance to most of the baryonic mass of galaxies in 2006.

It's time to wake up and smell the coffee already. There's nothing empirically different between "faith" in exotic forms of matter and "faith" in an intelligent 'creator'. The former idea has actually been "falsified" by tests costing billions of dollars. The latter idea is actually less empirically "constrained" than the former idea. :)
 
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Michael

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The issue of falsification is the huge elephant in the room with respect to this particular topic.

Of the four various "hypothetical" processes/entities in LCDM theory, only two, DE and DM "might" be able to be "lab tested" to some degree. In the case of the dark matter hypothesis, we've already spent billions of dollars falsifying every 'popular" mathematical extension to the standard particle physics model. We've found exactly *nothing* that would suggest that there is anything beyond the standard particle physics model, and it fact the standard particle physics model has passed every conceivable "test" to date with *flying colors*! Any 'faith" one might still hold in exotic matter theory runs headlong into *massive* amounts of laboratory data that show no signs of exotic forms of matter.

Even if LHC did one day find evidence of additional particles, there's nothing to ensure that any such particle would have the necessary properties (like longevity) to save LCDM theory.

In this particular case, the entire basis of the "cold dark matter" claim is the *assumption* that we already *know* the amount of ordinary baryonic mass in various galaxies. That whole 'concept' has been been falsified a half a dozen different ways over the past decade. Even more damning for exotic matter claims, was the revelation *this year* that the million degree plasma cloud that surrounds every galaxy, which we only discovered in 2012, rotates just like 'dark matter' mathematical models predict!

If there ever was a 'concept' that deserved to be falsified, "cold dark matter" hypothesis is that concept. There's simply *zero* evidence to support the idea of exotic forms of "cold dark matter", and it's failed every lab test *miserably*.

When does one finally pull the financial life support from this brain dead idea?
 
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