Works Required to Prove Faith

[saintboniface]

A) Are the following statements true for a sola fide adherent? If not, how would they be corrected?

1) Faith is required for salvation. 2) One who does not perform good works is an unbeliever and does not have faith. 3) Good works are required for salvation since they prove faith - 4) but good works do not cause salvation.

B) Why do I get the impression that sola fide adherents are opposed to saying, "Good works are required for salvation." If I said good works are required for salvation it seems sola fide adherents would immediately jump in with passages about faith alone. Why wouldn't they just say, "Yeah, you are right, good works are required for salvation. They are not the cause of salvation but they are required since they prove faith" ?

 

[St_Worm2]

3) Good works are required for salvation since they prove faith - 4) but good works do not cause salvation.

Hi SB, I understand what you are getting at. John Calvin says it like this however:

"We are justified by faith alone, but the faith that justifies is never alone."​

One problem for us "sola fide" types saying that, "good works are REQUIRED for salvation", is the fact that the Bible, very specifically, tells us that's not true. For instance:

"By grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; NOT AS A RESULT OF WORKS ......................." Ephesians 2:8-9

"He saved us, NOT ON THE BASIS OF DEEDS which we have done in righteousness, BUT ACCORDING TO HIS MERCY......................" Titus 3:5​

St. James says that:

"...a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone." James 2:24​

Or as you put it above, "good works ... PROVE faith".

The thing is, God doesn't need "proof" because He knows our hearts. So the only ones who need "proof" are ourselves and others. Do you really believe that your salvation rests upon your ability to successfully demonstrate that you are Christian ..

No? Then "good works" cannot be considered a "requirement" of salvation, IOW, something upon which our salvation rests (in whole or part). Instead, good works are the "RESULT" (Ephesians 2:10) ..

Yours and His,
David

"We are His masterpiece, created in Christ Jesus for good works,
which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them."
Ephesians 2:10​

 

[Albion]

A) Are the following statements true for a sola fide adherent? If not, how would they be corrected?

1) Faith is required for salvation. 2) One who does not perform good works is an unbeliever and does not have faith. 3) Good works are required for salvation since they prove faith - 4) but good works do not cause salvation.

I think you're going to have to give up trying to make that lineup work. You must think that each point logically demands the next one, but when you come to #3 you simply state a position that is a non-sequitur.

"Proving faith" is NOT a requirement for salvation.

In fact, we do not even have the right or ability to determine who among us is saved and who is not, although we may have strong hunches in the cases of people like Adolf Hitler and Mother Teresa. Even then, we do not know enough to know what God does.

 

[dysert]

A) Are the following statements true for a sola fide adherent? If not, how would they be corrected?

1) Faith is required for salvation. TRUE
2) One who does not perform good works is an unbeliever and does not have faith. FALSE
3) Good works are required for salvation since they prove faith FALSE
4) but good works do not cause salvation. TRUE

 

[grasping the after wind]

1) Faith is required for salvation. TRUE
2) One who does not perform good works is an unbeliever and does not have faith. FALSE
3) Good works are required for salvation since they prove faith FALSE
4) but good works do not cause salvation. TRUE

This.

 

[Albion]

1) Faith is required for salvation. TRUE
2) One who does not perform good works is an unbeliever and does not have faith. FALSE
3) Good works are required for salvation since they prove faith FALSE
4) but good works do not cause salvation. TRUE

Since you answered each point individually, I'll agree with your answers. They of course knock the bottom out of what our friend thought he was proving.

 

[dysert]

Since you answered each point individually, I'll agree with your answers. They of course knock the bottom out of what our friend thought he was proving.

I'm a simple guy. Since I don't know what our friend was trying to prove I had to simplify for myself.

 

[saintboniface]

Okay. Would you agree with this?

::: All souls in heaven must have performed good works prior to death. :::

 

[Albion]

Okay. Would you agree with this?

::: All souls in heaven must have performed good works prior to death. :::

I'm sorry, but you're working so hard to save something, anything, of a defective argument that you are doing an injustice to both the Protestant AND THE Catholic views on this subject. And nothing is served by working on it until we can come up with a statement that is ambiguous.

 

[grasping the after wind]

Okay. Would you agree with this?

::: All souls in heaven must have performed good works prior to death. :::

No I cannot agree. It would take too large a measure of hubris on my part to say i knew what every being in heaven has done or failed to do. I can only say with surety that every soul in heaven is there because of Jesus.

 

[saintboniface]

I'm sorry, but you're working so hard to save something, anything, of a defective argument that you are doing an injustice to both the Protestant AND THE Catholic views on this subject. And nothing is served by working on it until we can come up with a statement that is ambiguous.

No, you are working so hard to deny anything that has a hint of popishness even though it doesn't contradict your sole fide faith.

To have salvation one must have a living faith. To have a living faith one must produce good fruit. I can't see any way you can disagree with this.

You tell me then, what is the relationship between a living faith and works?

 

[dysert]

No I cannot agree. It would take too large a measure of hubris on my part to say i knew what every being in heaven has done or failed to do. I can only say with surety that every soul in heaven is there because of Jesus.

I ditto this and also add that the thief on the cross is in heaven, and I doubt he did any good works between the time he asked Jesus to remember him and the time he died.

 

[Albion]

No, you are working so hard to deny anything that has a hint of popishness even though it doesn't contradict your sole fide faith.

There's no need to turn to insults. I tried pretty hard to have a discussion about Faith Alone vs. Faith and Works...and it didn't succeed, that's all. I don't see any merit in trying to make either the words "Faith" or "Works" mean something that's out of context, but if we can't discuss the theological issue here, so be it. There are no hard feelings on my part--so far--and I'd prefer to leave it that way.

 

[Willie T]

Works Required to Prove Faith

Uhhhh.... to "whom?"

 

[Albion]

Uhhhh.... to "whom?"

And where does the idea come from that anyone has to "prove" Faith?

 

[St_Worm2]

From the "Show me" verse. You know, James 2:18.

Of course, there is no command there or anything ..

 

[Albion]

From the "Show me" verse. You know, James 2:18.

Of course, there is no command there or anything ..

Thank you. Yes, I know it well, but it never occurred to me that anyone would take those words literally and actually make "Show me yours, and I'll show you mine" into a spiritual obligation.

 

[St_Worm2]

I thought this thread and, quite frankly, most of the threads I've been posting in for awhile right now, could use a little levity ..

We hold so much of the faith in common with our RC friends, but when it comes to soteriology, so little seems harmonizable ..

 

[ebia]

What exactly is gained by re-enacting this argument over and over?

Both classic positions accept that salvation and better behaviour are inseparable.
Neither side holds that we are saved by belief In the correct soterological model.
The details are not going to be resolved by going over the same ground time and time again.

(FWIW, I think both have some handle on the truth and both are partly missing the point - salvation is becoming more fully human; more perfectly the image of God in and for his creation.

 

[saintboniface]

I ditto this and also add that the thief on the cross is in heaven, and I doubt he did any good works between the time he asked Jesus to remember him and the time he died.

Sure he did. He performed a spiritual work of mercy or two right on his cross. He admonished the sinner and instructed the ignorant.