Works Required to Prove Faith

[Yarddog]

Hey Dog, I'm happy to say that I concur with most of what you've written here (no real surprise), except for the part above that's underlined. If we are saved by "Grace" (unmerited favor), how can we also be saved by "works" (meritorious acts) ..

The works which I refer to are not works of the law or any work which man does to try to earn salvation. Man cannot say that he has faith if the works which God calls us to are not present. Much like the quote which you gave from Calvin in your first post.

If God, through grace, moves our spirits to love, man cannot claim any merit for what he has done, but, God can grant him merit. If God's love is not working within us, can we have faith which justifies?

IOW, salvation is either by God's grace or it's by man's works, it cannot be by both (because these two are so essentially distinct from one another).

Catholicism shows that there is actual grace and sanctifying grace. Actual grace is God moving within us and enables us to act or work. These actions are the ones which must be present for man to receive his salvation.

Actual grace allowed Abraham to believe God's promise and receive righteousness and actual grace allowed Abraham to offer his son Isaac and then complete the promise which Abraham believed.

Paul was speaking of the former while James was speaking of the latter.

 

[Albion]

The Holy Spirit. If you have this Spirit, you should be able to understand what God calls you to do.

So the answer to my question about who among us knows where the Holy Spirit is leading is...the Holy Spirit?

 

[Yarddog]

So the answer to my question about who among us knows where the Holy Spirit is leading is...the Holy Spirit?

You didn't ask the question like that. If by us, you mean man, then that is not what I mean. If you include the Holy Spirit in the us, in that those who call themselves Christian should possess this Spirit, then yes.

Neither you nor I, when we stand before God can blame others for the actions which we take in this life. If we have failed, it is not the fault of our Church leadership. It is our fault for not surrendering to God.

God has given us his Spirit for a reason and that is to help us walk in that Spirit. As we learn to walk that Spirit has changed us so that the old is gone and the new is present. We begin to understand the New Commandment and we love without having to think about what we must do. We obey because the desire to disobey begins to disappear.

It is no longer about a list of do's and don'ts, it is our spiritual nature.

 

[Albion]

You didn't ask the question like that. If by us, you mean man, then that is not what I mean.

Well, I thought I was clear, but if it's better now, let's move on.

Neither you nor I, when we stand before God can blame others for the actions which we take in this life. If we have failed, it is not the fault of our Church leadership. It is our fault for not surrendering to God.

I hope you are about to get to the question now that you know what it is.

God has given us his Spirit for a reason and that is to help us walk in that Spirit. As we learn to walk that Spirit has changed us so that the old is gone and the new is present. We begin to understand the New Commandment and we love without having to think about what we must do. We obey because the desire to disobey begins to disappear.

OK, so what's the answer?

What you're saying is that everyone's hunch is as good as the next person's and there is no standard with God. At least, there's none that is known to Man.

The church may teach works-righteousness, but it has no idea what works or how many of them or of what kind? Yet a hundred other doctrines of much less critical nature are defined to the nth degree

....what kind of theological system asks us to face the future without any idea of what it takes to please God sufficiently for him to save us?

 

[Yarddog]

OK, so what's the answer?

Some never hear.

What you're saying is that everyone's hunch is as good as the next person's and there is no standard with God. At least, there's none that is known to Man.

The church may teach works-righteousness, but it has no idea what works or how many of them or of what kind? Yet a hundred other doctrines of much less critical nature are defined to the nth degree

....what kind of theological system asks us to face the future without any idea of what it takes to please God sufficiently for him to save us?

Matthew 13:
3 And he spake to them many things in parables, saying, Behold, the sower went forth to sow;
4 and as he sowed, some [seeds] fell by the way side, and the birds came and devoured them:
5 and others fell upon the rocky places, where they had not much earth: and straightway they sprang up, because they had no deepness of earth:
6 and when the sun was risen, they were scorched; and because they had no root, they withered away.
7 And others fell upon the thorns; and the thorns grew up and choked them:
8 and others fell upon the good ground, and yielded fruit, some a hundredfold, some sixty, some thirty.
9 He that hath ears, let him hear.
10 And the disciples came, and said unto him, Why speakest thou unto them in parables?
11 And he answered and said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it is not given.

 

[Albion]

Some never hear.

That's it?

After all of this, you have no answer, but yet this is supposed to be your own theological system. Whew.

 

[Yarddog]

That's it?

After all of this, you have no answer, but yet this is supposed to be your own theological system. Whew.

I gave you everything that you need to know. If you haven't listened, maybe someday you will.

 

[Albion]

I gave you everything that you need to know. If you haven't listened, maybe someday you will.

What I asked is who among us can say what good deeds are the ones that count towards our salvation, and how many? If no one can say...then every churchgoer is without bearings on the most important item in his life. On a thread entitled, "Works Required to Prove Faith" this doesn't seem like too much to ask.

You guessed that the Holy Spirit knows. But he's not here in the flesh to hand out the instruction sheets. Then you said we have to walk in the Spirit. Then you said "some never hear." Then you reprinted some Bible verses that don't say, either. Then you said I hadn't listened.

Such is the theology called Works Righteousness.

And, I think, it's why "Believe; don't ask questions" is the attitude of the churches that promote it.

Thanks for the discussion. You can't say I didn't give you every chance.

 

[dhh712]

A) Are the following statements true for a sola fide adherent? If not, how would they be corrected?

1) Faith is required for salvation. 2) One who does not perform good works is an unbeliever and does not have faith. 3) Good works are required for salvation since they prove faith - 4) but good works do not cause salvation.

B) Why do I get the impression that sola fide adherents are opposed to saying, "Good works are required for salvation." If I said good works are required for salvation it seems sola fide adherents would immediately jump in with passages about faith alone. Why wouldn't they just say, "Yeah, you are right, good works are required for salvation. They are not the cause of salvation but they are required since they prove faith" ?

I would say that the reason you are getting the reaction in B is because the statement "good works are required since they prove faith" seems to imply that we need to be able to demonstrate to God that we have faith--that He would not be able to just know without it. Of course, I'm quite sure no one would actually think this, but nonetheless this is the impression that it gives. I'm quite sure all Christians are aware the God needs no proof of faith, as He is the one to bestow such a blessing on all who receive it anyway.

In my view, faith cannot exist without works. It the result of it. One cannot have faith without works though one can do works without faith. Another understanding I have of faith and works is that works are the only way other Christians can know if one is walking with God--that is the only way we can judge someone who is our brethren apart from those who are walking in darkness, if they demonstrate an earnestness for obedience to the commandments of God and seek always God's glory and not their own. How else can we know? We cannot know the heart of man, only God can know that. Yet how else are we to know who our brethren are? Any one can say they are a Christian; if they care to become involved in fellowship with other Christians and promote an active Christian lifestyle which involves furthering the Kingdom of God (I can't see how the commandments consisting of loving your neighbor as yourself can be performed without doing these things), then they will have to interact with others in a way which can demonstrate their allegiance to God and not the world (i.e. charitable work, reaching out to the community, seeking the lost, etc.).

 

[JacquelineDeane55]

I just spent 30 minutes reading this entire thread and I must say, I believe that salvation is by faith alone, not from any good works we must do. At least that is what my church teaches. I believe that this is called the sola fide position.

 

[faroukfarouk]

I just spent 30 minutes reading this entire thread and I must say, I believe that salvation is by faith alone, not from any good works we must do. At least that is what my church teaches. I believe that this is called the sola fide position.

Ms. JacquelineDeane55:

Hi there; this is what Ephesians 2.8-9 teaches, right?

Blessings.

 

[faroukfarouk]

PS: James would also point out that works are evidence of faith, and that no works in evidence suggests a lack of true faith. The Lord Jesus Himself said: 'By their fruits ye shall know them'.

Ephesians 2 says, after affirming that salvation is by grace, through faith, not of works, goes on to say in verse 10: 'For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them'.

Blessings.

 

[St_Worm2]

I just spent 30 minutes reading this entire thread and I must say, I believe that salvation is by faith alone, not from any good works we must do. At least that is what my church teaches. I believe that this is called the sola fide position.

Hi JacquelineDeane, I also believe you've made a correct assessment .. Works are the result of our new life in Christ, not the cause of it.

Many who teach that our salvation can be lost, also teach that it can be restored by performing good works. However, this both opposes the Biblical doctrine of salvation by grace through faith alone (John 5:24; Ephesian 2:8-9; Romans 10:9-10; Titus 3:5) and stands in opposition to what Hebrews 6 & 10appears to teach us, that our salvation, if it can be lost, can never be regained.

Yours and His,
David

"To the one who works, his wage is not credited as a favor, but as what is due.
But to the one who does not work, but believes in Him who justifies
the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness."
Romans 4:4-5​

 

[Archie the Preacher]

Paul spoke to some of the members of the early churches and told them to remember that salvation came from faith in God alone and not from 'works'; good things for them to win Brownie points with God. The central question was the 'works' of observing the Mosaic Law. Paul told them in uncertain terms no one earned salvation, it was a gift of God by grace.

James spoke to some Christians in the Jerusalem area and addressed the problem with their inaction. The problem was they felt they were indeed saved by grace and now they were going to wait until Jesus returned. Right here in their comfy chair at home. Maybe taking a nap. James' point was that because they were Christians, they should want to perform ministry works.

One who speaks of 'faith' and does not a cotton-picking thing to forward the Kingdom is questionable in terms of true motives. However, I am not directed to spend all my waking hours detecting these people and reporting them to God, my pastor or this forum. I strongly suspect no one else is so directed, either.

Further. I am directed to be discrete in my 'good deeds'. My left hand should not know what my right hand is doing and so forth. If I am following this directive, how is anyone else going to judge me as to my faith? And that works in reverse as well; how could I adequately judge another's faith if they are being discrete in their acts of goodness?

 

[Albion]

Paul spoke to some of the members of the early churches and told them to remember that salvation came from faith in God alone and not from 'works'; good things for them to win Brownie points with God. The central question was the 'works' of observing the Mosaic Law. Paul told them in uncertain terms no one earned salvation, it was a gift of God by grace.

James spoke to some Christians in the Jerusalem area and addressed the problem with their inaction. The problem was they felt they were indeed saved by grace and now they were going to wait until Jesus returned. Right here in their comfy chair at home. Maybe taking a nap. James' point was that because they were Christians, they should want to perform ministry works.

One who speaks of 'faith' and does not a cotton-picking thing to forward the Kingdom is questionable in terms of true motives. However, I am not directed to spend all my waking hours detecting these people and reporting them to God, my pastor or this forum. I strongly suspect no one else is so directed, either.

Further. I am directed to be discrete in my 'good deeds'. My left hand should not know what my right hand is doing and so forth. If I am following this directive, how is anyone else going to judge me as to my faith? And that works in reverse as well; how could I adequately judge another's faith if they are being discrete in their acts of goodness?

It seems to me that you've given us a number of important points to be known about salvation and the Christian lifestyle...and not a one of them is an advocacy of Works Righteousness. Thank you.

1. Salvation is a gift and cannot be earned.

2. True believers are going to want to good because that is what Our Lord expects.

3. Any one who claims to be a disciple of Christ but does nothing to live like one, probably is not among the saved, no matter what they think about it.

4. Still, none of us can know for a certainty--and not by observing others--who is saved and who is not.

Everyone should notice that "Your good works can persuade God to save you" is not among these Bible teachings about Faith.

 

[Angelquill]

Christians argue about this all the time, when it is really very simple.
You hear the gospel message, and you put your faith in Christ. You come to Him, you are baptized, and Christ sends His Spirit to dwell within your heart.
Now, the Spirit within you leads you, and you will do the good works that your Father created you to do.
So, are good works necessary for salvation? No. However, good works will inevitably follow salvation.
Living faith is saving faith. However, faith without works, like a body without a heart, is dead.

 

[BenBud]

A) Are the following statements true for a sola fide adherent? If not, how would they be corrected?

1) Faith is required for salvation. 2) One who does not perform good works is an unbeliever and does not have faith. 3) Good works are required for salvation since they prove faith - 4) but good works do not cause salvation.

B) Why do I get the impression that sola fide adherents are opposed to saying, "Good works are required for salvation." If I said good works are required for salvation it seems sola fide adherents would immediately jump in with passages about faith alone. Why wouldn't they just say, "Yeah, you are right, good works are required for salvation. They are not the cause of salvation but they are required since they prove faith" ?

Lets look at salvation first. What separates us from God? SIN. Ok. So the only way to be saved is from repenting from that sin, to follow God's holy light. With sin we can't inter his divine presence. REPENTING means: doing a 180 and not going back to that sin or in Greek: a complete change in mind and action. James 4:17 and Matthew 25:31-46 are good examples of you having to do good deeds to not sin. Faith without deeds is dead (James 2:14-26). People now-a-days just throw the word believe around like nothing, but the BIBLE says if you don't DIE to self you wont be saved. (1 John 2:3-6) There are two definitions of BELIEF Intellectual acceptance ( 2+2=4) then there's PASSIONATE CONVICTION. You can see that expressed in John 8:31-32. These are believers that aren't saved. WOW!!! RADICAL!!! Amen. God bless. Hope this helps.

 

[Albion]

Christians argue about this all the time, when it is really very simple.
You hear the gospel message, and you put your faith in Christ. You come to Him, you are baptized, and Christ sends His Spirit to dwell within your heart.
Now, the Spirit within you leads you, and you will do the good works that your Father created you to do.
So, are good works necessary for salvation? No. However, good works will inevitably follow salvation.
Living faith is saving faith. However, faith without works, like a body without a heart, is dead.

Well said.

Works demonstrate Faith. They do not do the job of Faith or contribute to Faith accomplishing what it does.

.

 

[saintboniface]

So, are good works necessary for salvation? No. However, good works will inevitably follow salvation.

Works are essential to true faith/belief. As such, works are essential to eternal salvation.

 

[bbbbbbb]

Works are essential to true faith/belief. As such, works are essential to eternal salvation.

Specifically, can you tell us which works are essential and which are not?