Works Relation to Salvation

[Leaf473]

Thank you. May the Lord be with us all.

James starts the chapter saying have faith and do not doubt. Then in respect to being tempted by our own lusts James through the Spirit says, we are to receive the engrafted word that begot us. Be doers of the word that has become part of us, having been engrafted through being born of It. Because if we are a hearer of the engrafted word and not a doer then we are as if we behold this new person that is begotten of the Word of truth in a mirror and walk away forgetting what we are, this first fruit of His creation begotten by the word of truth and thereby having the engrafted Word which is able to save our souls.

But whosoever looks into this that which they become with the engrafted word, the perfect law having been engrafted in us,

Right, that would be the entire law, wouldn't it?

...that law of freedom because it is now part of us. And is a doer of this work he is blessed indeed.

Jas 1:14 But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
Jas 1:15 Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
Jas 1:16 Do not err, my beloved brethren.
Jas 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.

Jas 1:18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.
Jas 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
Jas 1:22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
Jas 1:23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
Jas 1:24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
Jas 1:25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law, that of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Sadly, you keep using your words against the Word of God as if they are equal.

I had to read this sentence several times before I understood what you were saying. I would just say in response that I do not consider my words to be on par with Scripture. But I try hard to make my words consistent with Scripture. And I don't usually feel the need to put Bible references after every phrase or two in order to demonstrate that my words are consistent with Scripture. I assume people have enough understanding to make the connection on their own.

All of your arguments have been you arguing against the plain scriptures.

One thing that I have learned in this forum is that there are many different and often conflicting views of Scripture. The point of these discussions, in my view, is to challenge each other to get to the truth of the matters we are discussing. We must always be open to the possibility that our views are contrary to what the Holy Spirit is trying to teach us. My approach in trying to convince others to see things the way I do is simply to appeal to their sense of reason. Perhaps this is not the best approach. I will prayerfully consider others.

The law of liberty is the Ten Commandments as James quotes and contrasts exclusively from them. James 2:10-12. It's called the law of liberty because it means we have overcome the bondage of sin and walk freely in Christ. Walking in Christ there is no condemnation Romans 8:1 and those in Christ are not an enmity against God's law Romans 8:7 which is kept through love and faith Romans 3:31 1 John 5:3 Exo 20:6 John 14:15 Those who are in the flesh (sin) cannot please God Rom 8:8

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. (Ro 8:9–10)​

Do you see in verses 9 and 10 a contrast between the dead sinful flesh and the alive righteous spirit of the person in whom Christ lives? If not, then you do not understand that our righteousness is in Christ (2 Cor 5:21), and that nothing good dwells in our flesh (Ro 7:18).

I'm sorry, you feel that it’s impossible to obey God, I don't think that it is through Jesus Christ. John 14:15-18 The bible says its possible Rev 14:12 and we have a High Priest we can go to if we slip and fall, when we repent 1 John 1:9 if one thinks we can’t obey God, perhaps pray for a little more faith or perhaps a lifestyle change, I'm not sure, but God can help, we need to take up our cross and deny ourselves daily. Luke 9:23

You misundertand my position. I say that obedience to God's laws does not lead to righteousness UNLESS it is 100% obedience. I didn't make that up, I'm parotting Galatians 3:10-12 which is parotting the OT law:

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”​

When you say, "we have a High Priest we can go to if we slip and fall, when we repent", you are admitting that our obedience is not complete obedience. And as I explained concerning your referenced to James 2:10 ("For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all"), when you "slip and fall", all the righteousness you might have gained keeping the whole law evaporates when you stumble in one point.

So please explain to me how a person can be guilty of all laws by stumbling in one point every day, every other day, or every third day and still be considered to be obedient to God.

In the end, when we try to make the dead flesh (Ro 8:10) righteous through obedience to God's laws (instead of resting in the true righteousness and holiness we have in Christ (Eph 4:24)), we always find ourselves on our knees at the feet of Jesus asking for forgiveness.

 

[Leaf473]

I had to read this sentence several times before I understood what you were saying. I would just say in response that I do not consider my words to be on par with Scripture. But I try hard to make my words consistent with Scripture. And I don't usually feel the need to put Bible references after every phrase or two in order to demonstrate that my words are consistent with Scripture. I assume people have enough understanding to make the connection on their own.

One thing that I have learned in this forum is that there are many different and often conflicting views of Scripture. The point of these discussions, in my view, is to challenge each other to get to the truth of the matters we are discussing. We must always be open to the possibility that our views are contrary to what the Holy Spirit is trying to teach us.

Yes, I agree.

My approach in trying to convince others to see things the way I do is simply to appeal to their sense of reason. Perhaps this is not the best approach. I will prayerfully consider others.

It's the best approach I know of, as well. But if someone knows a better one, I'm interested in hearing about it

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. (Ro 8:9–10)​

Do you see in verses 9 and 10 a contrast between the dead sinful flesh and the alive righteous spirit of the person in whom Christ lives? If not, then you do not understand that our righteousness is in Christ (2 Cor 5:21), and that nothing good dwells in our flesh (Ro 7:18).

You misundertand my position. I say that obedience to God's laws does not lead to righteousness UNLESS it is 100% obedience. I didn't make that up, I'm parotting Galatians 3:10-12 which is parotting the OT law:

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.”

The thing that stands out to me there is "all". Certain parts of the book of the law are not separated out.

11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”

When you say, "we have a High Priest we can go to if we slip and fall, when we repent", you are admitting that our obedience is not complete obedience. And as I explained concerning your referenced to James 2:10 ("For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all"), when you "slip and fall", all the righteousness you might have gained keeping the whole law evaporates when you stumble in one point.

So please explain to me how a person can be guilty of all laws by stumbling in one point every day, every other day, or every third day and still be considered to be obedient to God.

In the end, when we try to make the dead flesh (Ro 8:10) righteous through obedience to God's laws (instead of resting in the true righteousness and holiness we have in Christ (Eph 4:24)), we always find ourselves on our knees at the feet of Jesus asking for forgiveness.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

I had to read this sentence several times before I understood what you were saying. I would just say in response that I do not consider my words to be on par with Scripture. But I try hard to make my words consistent with Scripture. And I don't usually feel the need to put Bible references after every phrase or two in order to demonstrate that my words are consistent with Scripture. I assume people have enough understanding to make the connection on their own.

I appreciate you sharing your perspective. I disagree that we should not provide scriptures to prove our position. We should be able to provide biblical reasons for our position instead of using our words, which is not the same as God’s Word. To me our opinions really mean nothing.

One thing that I have learned in this forum is that there are many different and often conflicting views of Scripture. The point of these discussions, in my view, is to challenge each other to get to the truth of the matters we are discussing. We must always be open to the possibility that our views are contrary to what the Holy Spirit is trying to teach us. My approach in trying to convince others to see things the way I do is simply to appeal to their sense of reason. Perhaps this is not the best approach. I will prayerfully consider others.

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. (Ro 8:9–10)​

You missed a couple verses right before this and I am a strong proponent in looking at all of the context. My suggestion would to read Romans 8:7-8 and how it integrates with this entire passage. What I think some people get wrong is that they feel they do not have to obey God but can still be in Christ Romans 8:7-8 clearly rejects this teaching. The father of lies thought this too and it didn’t turn out well for him, 1 John 3:8

Do you see in verses 9 and 10 a contrast between the dead sinful flesh and the alive righteous spirit of the person in whom Christ lives? If not, then you do not understand that our righteousness is in Christ (2 Cor 5:21), and that nothing good dwells in our flesh (Ro 7:18).

We can’t be alive in Christ while living in sin (transgressing God’s law). While this teaching sounds good to itching ears, it is contrary to God’s Word if you look at all of the scriptures. To be truthful it always surprises me that people argue against obeying God the way He asks, as if that is bad or unrighteous. What this is called is being self-righteous and depending upon our own version of righteousness instead of God’s Psa 119:172 our version of truth instead of God’s Truth Psa 119:151. What this does in my opinion is takes away the power of God, but we are unable to sanctify ourselves only God can Eze 20:12 and we are only sanctified by the Truth to God’s Word John 17:17

You misundertand my position. I say that obedience to God's laws does not lead to righteousness UNLESS it is 100% obedience. I didn't make that up, I'm parotting Galatians 3:10-12 which is parotting the OT law:

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”​

Can you point to the verse that says we can disobey God’s commandments and that will lead to righteousness. From my bible sin, transgressing God’s law Romans 7:7 1 John 3:4 leads to death Romans 6:16 Rom 6: 23, not righteousness or life. Jesus said if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments Mat 19:17-19 and said when we obey our rules over the commandments of God, one worships in vain Mat 15:3-9. Jesus is our greatest Teacher, came not only to be our Sacrificial Lamb when we sin so we can go to Him, but lived to be our greatest example to follow. 1 John 2:6 and Jesus taught not to break or teach others to break the least of the commandments Mat 5:19-30, Jesus kept them all as our example to follow John 15:10 so whoever is teaching you that its not important to obey God’s commandments is teaching you the opposite of what Jesus taught.

When you say, "we have a High Priest we can go to if we slip and fall, when we repent", you are admitting that our obedience is not complete obedience. And as I explained concerning your referenced to James 2:10 ("For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all"), when you "slip and fall", all the righteousness you might have gained keeping the whole law evaporates when you stumble in one point.

Jesus is giving a solution for us when we sin, that we are not lost forever. Only unrepented and perpetual sinners there remains no more sacrifice Hebrews 10:26 Mat 7:21-23 There is no scripture that says we can live in sin and be saved. You seem to be teaching the opposite of what we are told. It goes back to your theory that we can’t overcome sin, but I disagree we can- our Jesus should be bigger than our devil, we just need to believe His promise to deliver us from sin and not in sin Mat 1:21 When we first go to Jesus we should come to Him just as we are- sinners, but as we grow in Jesus He should be transforming our hearts and minds. The law just points out sin so we know what not to do, through Jesus we can overcome sin, I believe this. It’s a promise of scripture Mat 19:26 Rev 14:12

So please explain to me how a person can be guilty of all laws by stumbling in one point every day, every other day, or every third day and still be considered to be obedient to God.

We can’t unless we repent for our sins. Which is what we are told to do when we fall. Mat 4:17 1 John 1:9 Pro 28:13 We are told through Christ we can overcome anything including sin- do you not believe this promise that all things are possible though Jesus? I think it comes down to our faith in Him. Jesus would not ask us to do something that we will be judged by James 2:10-12 Ecc 12:13-14 Mat 5:19-30 if it was impossible to do.

In the end, when we try to make the dead flesh (Ro 8:10) righteous through obedience to God's laws (instead of resting in the true righteousness and holiness we have in Christ (Eph 4:24)), we always find ourselves on our knees at the feet of Jesus asking for forgiveness.

Weird you would think being righteous (doing the right thing) wouldn’t mean we only worship God, using His name only in a holy way, not bowing to false idols, keeping holy His Sabbath day, not coveting, not stealing not lying and and obeying God would not lead us to righteousness, but disobeying God would. This is not a biblical teaching Romans 6:16 as sin is what separated us from God Isa 59:2 and how one could think we can freely continue in sin and be reconciled, is just not something found in scripture. This is why I only trust scriptures instead of peoples teachings, too much at stake. We should want to obey God through love and faith. Rom 3:31 1 John 5:3 John 14:15 Exo 20:6 John 15:10 not to be saved, but because we love Jesus John 14:15 Exo 20:6 and the saved live differently than the lost, they are a peculiar people.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. And compare this promise to the next verse.

We keep going over the same thing, so unless you have something new to add, I’ll leave it as agree to disagree, but wish you well in seeking Truth to God’s precious Word. God bless!

 

[Leaf473]

Is sin defined only by the Ten Commandments? If not, it would be beneficial to read the full definition of sin in the instructions delivered through Moses.

We know that all scripture is beneficial!

 

[Icyspark]

Cool

Well, at least from my point of view, I don't know of anyone here who says, "God said x, but I'm going to do y." Rather, it's more like, "God said x, but he didn't say it to me (or us)."

Some examples would be to build an ark, or buy a sword.

So the question as far as the Sabbath and the Law is concerned, is: Out of all the instructions in the Old Testament, which ones are for us?

Does that makes sense so far? I'm not asking you to agree with it, just asking if it makes sense.

Hi Leaf473,

So far, so good. I'm following along. Please continue.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

 

[HIM]

Right,

What is right? Are you saying you agree with the post?

 

[Leaf473]

Hi Leaf473,

So far, so good. I'm following along. Please continue.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark

Cool The next step is that I see the law as a single unit, indivisible.

This is not to say that we can't make artificial divisions. We could say that these instructions contain the word Levite, and these instructions don't. But that would be an artificial division.

Again, not asking you to agree or disagree, just if you're able to follow what I'm saying.

Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 12:32 - New American Standard Bible

“Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take anything away from it.

www.biblegateway.com

Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 3:10 - New American Standard Bible

For all who are of works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written: “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THE THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO DO THEM.”

www.biblegateway.com

 

[Leaf473]

What is right? Are you saying you agree with the post?

I'm agreeing that the perfect law has been grafted into us. (I'm assuming that "grafted into" is the same as written in our hearts and minds.)

And that perfect law that James is talking about, the law of Liberty, is the entire law, isn't it?

 

[HIM]

I'm agreeing that the perfect law has been grafted into us. (I'm assuming that "grafted into" is the same as written in our hearts and minds.)

And that perfect law that James is talking about, the law of Liberty, is the entire law, isn't it?

So you don't agree with the post? Where do you think an error is?

 

[HIM]

In the end, when we try to make the dead flesh (Ro 8:10) righteous through obedience to God's laws (instead of resting in the true righteousness and holiness we have in Christ (Eph 4:24)), we always find ourselves on our knees at the feet of Jesus asking for forgiveness.

So that is all you get from Romans?

You misundertand my position. I say that obedience to God's laws does not lead to righteousness UNLESS it is 100% obedience. I didn't make that up, I'm parotting Galatians 3:10-12 which is parotting the OT law:

Faith does and Faith establishes the law. What does Galatians say of Faith?

 

[Leaf473]

So you don't agree with the post? Where do you think an error is?

It lacks a conclusion, the actual answer to the question: what is the law of Liberty?

It looks like you are saying that the perfect law is the word engrafted in us, and that engrafted word is the law of liberty.


What, then, are you saying is the engrafted word? Are you saying it's the entire law of Moses? The entire Bible? Just the Ten Commandments? Some other set of scripture passages?

In this post,

The law of liberty is the Ten Commandments as James quotes and contrasts exclusively from them. James 2:10-12.

it sounds like SabbathBlessings is saying that the law of Liberty is just the Ten Commandments. Is that how you see it as well, or do you see it differently?
________________
Edit:
(I bring up SB's post because it provides the context for my post #649, which was the post you first responded to in this present conversation.

 

[Studyman]

9 But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His. 10 And if Christ is in you, the body is dead because of sin, but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. (Ro 8:9–10)​

Do you see in verses 9 and 10 a contrast between the dead sinful flesh and the alive righteous spirit of the person in whom Christ lives? If not, then you do not understand that our righteousness is in Christ (2 Cor 5:21), and that nothing good dwells in our flesh (Ro 7:18).

Rom. 8: 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who "walk" not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

I think it's essential to consider "ALL" of Paul's writing, in order to understand him. Whether or not a man is "In Christ", he still "Walks", and he is still flesh. Before repentance, when Paul and the religion he had adopted, were "Children of Disobedience", he walked after this world's desires, religious traditions, etc.

Eph. 2: 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of "our" flesh, fulfilling the desires of the (our) flesh and of the (our) mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

In Paul's case, in times past, he walked according to the religious doctrines and traditions of a religious sect called "The Pharisees". This religion "professed that they knew God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."

The Jesus of the Bible said about the Pharisees religion "Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition" and HE said they taught for doctrines the commandments of men.

So yes, there is no good in our flesh, therefore we should not walk after it as it is engaged with the course of this world, and the powers of the air.

Instead, as the Jesus "of the bible" teaches, "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

We still walk, we still choose, we just walk after the Words of the Christ, which are Spirit and are Life.

You misundertand my position. I say that obedience to God's laws does not lead to righteousness UNLESS it is 100% obedience.

What do you mean here? I understand that if I don't steal or kill others, but I'm an adulterer, I am still living in Sin and am in need of repentance. And Paul does teach;

1 Cor. 6: 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Of course, if I follow the Christ's instruction regarding eternal life, "Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Then I would be careful to walk after the Spirit, which would not "do" any of these things. As God also inspired it to be written;

1 John 2: 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are "in him".

6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

So isn't this the goal of every man who "Says" there are in Him? And Jesus does say
"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

And Paul also says;

Phil. 3: 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing "I" do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God "in Christ Jesus".

As a result of these Biblical Truths and more, I disagree with your stated position.

I didn't make that up, I'm parotting Galatians 3:10-12 which is parotting the OT law:

What Law did the Pharisees promote to the Galatians? Paul said it pertained to "Justification". If I have sinned, even if I stop sinning, my past sins must be removed before I can be deemed "Righteous". Is this not also your understanding? In the "OT" Law, when a common man such as me sinned, what did Moses instruct that man to do?

I am hoping you will seek the answer, and then simply post the words of Moses defining the "works of the Law" required for justification of a common man that sinned. Then we can come closer to understanding Paul teaching here.

10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them.” 11 But that no one is justified by the law in the sight of God is evident, for “the just shall live by faith.” 12 Yet the law is not of faith, but “the man who does them shall live by them.”​

When you say, "we have a High Priest we can go to if we slip and fall, when we repent", you are admitting that our obedience is not complete obedience. And as I explained concerning your referenced to James 2:10 ("For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet stumble in one point, he is guilty of all"), when you "slip and fall", all the righteousness you might have gained keeping the whole law evaporates when you stumble in one point.

So please explain to me how a person can be guilty of all laws by stumbling in one point every day, every other day, or every third day and still be considered to be obedient to God.

Well, if you were to consider Paul's teaching to the Philippians, and the following to the Romans, I would hope your position might change.

Rom. 6: 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey,

Notice again that Paul so telling them that "THEY" do the walking, the yielding. Jesus doesn't walk for them. This is a very important Biblical Truth that is pretty much ignored by this world's religions, in my view.

his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Paul, as a Pharisee, "Yielded himself" to the doctrines, Traditions and Laws of the religious sect of the Pharisees, the mainstream religion of Jerusalem in his time, not God as "many" who come in HIS Name falsely preach. Listen to Paul here.

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of (God's) righteousness.

In the end, when we try to make the dead flesh (Ro 8:10) righteous through obedience to God's laws (instead of resting in the true righteousness and holiness we have in Christ (Eph 4:24)), we always find ourselves on our knees at the feet of Jesus asking for forgiveness.

I understand this is the religious philosophy promoted by the religions of this world God placed us in. Just as Paul was born into a world in which religions, professing to know God, existed. And Abraham as well, was told to deny himself, and leave the religions of the world he was born into and follow the Lord.

But I am hoping you might consider the scriptures posted, and something I have come to know over the years of "Yielding myself" to obey God and not this world's religions.

It is written of the Body of the Christ "of the Bible", "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should "walk" in them.

Consider a child that Jesus said to come to Him as. God "Before Ordained" that the child should "WALK". But as an infant, he cannot yet walk. But from the very beginning this is the only goal/duty of the child. Everything it does, is him pressing for the prize of the high calling of God, "To Walk". It rolls over first, then scoots. It bumps into things, cries, but never stops. It falls, hurts himself and cries some more, "but this one thing he does, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before," he continues to push towards that perfect goal, To Walk. He deals with uneven surfaces, stairs, obstacles, fatigue, but through "patient continuance", he overcomes them all, because God places them there to strengthen him, even though he may not know it at the time.

It is the same for the "New Man" which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.. He starts out a "babe in Christ", seeking the milk of the word, and strives against sin, seeking God's Kingdom and God's Righteousness, because the Power is of God, not us. But the world we live in hates God and despises His Instruction in righteousness. It's influence surrounds us on every side.

The religion's of this world tell him he can't overcome. They imply God lied to him, that he is trying to earn perfection. He falls, gets hurt, cries to God, but gets back up and continues. The entire world, and its religions call him names, "Judaizer" "legalist", and they work to discourage him from doing what God instructed and created him to do. But they know and believe that if they endure to the end by putting on the Armor Jesus wore, and overcome the obstacles that are there to make them stronger. They will learn obedience from the things they suffered, and will become, not servants of sin, as they once were, but servant of God's righteousness as were all the examples of those Faithful men in the Scriptures, "that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus".

As Paul also teaches.

2 Cor. 4: 6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. 8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; 9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; 10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. 11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

Remember, "7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that "doeth" righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

 

[daq]

What Law did the Pharisees promote to the Galatians? Paul said it pertained to "Justification". If I have sinned, even if I stop sinning, my past sins must be removed before I can be deemed "Righteous". Is this not also your understanding? In the "OT" Law, when a common man such as me sinned, what did Moses instruct that man to do?

I am hoping you will seek the answer, and then simply post the words of Moses defining the "works of the Law" required for justification of a common man that sinned. Then we can come closer to understanding Paul teaching here.

For the one who understands the supernal meanings of the sacrifices in the Torah it is in this manner:

Leviticus 4:27-35 KJV
27 And if any one of the common people sin through ignorance, while he doeth somewhat against any of the commandments of the LORD concerning things which ought not to be done, and be guilty;
28 Or if his sin, which he hath sinned, come to his knowledge: then he shall bring his offering, a kid of the goats, a female without blemish, for his sin which he hath sinned.
29 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay the sin offering in the place of the burnt offering.
30 And the priest shall take of the blood thereof with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar.
31 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat is taken away from off the sacrifice of peace offerings; and the priest shall burn it upon the altar for a sweet savour unto the LORD; and the priest shall make an atonement for him, and it shall be forgiven him.
32 And if he bring a lamb for a sin offering, he shall bring it a female without blemish.
33 And he shall lay his hand upon the head of the sin offering, and slay it for a sin offering in the place where they kill the burnt offering.
34 And the priest shall take of the blood of the sin offering with his finger, and put it upon the horns of the altar of burnt offering, and shall pour out all the blood thereof at the bottom of the altar:
35 And he shall take away all the fat thereof, as the fat of the lamb is taken away from the sacrifice of the peace offerings; and the priest shall burn them upon the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: and the priest shall make an atonement for his sin that he hath committed, and it shall be forgiven him.

Leviticus 5:1-6 KJV
1 And if a soul sin, and hear the voice of swearing, and is a witness, whether he hath seen or known of it; if he do not utter it, then he shall bear his iniquity.
2 Or if a soul touch any unclean thing, whether it be a carcase of an unclean beast, or a carcase of unclean cattle, or the carcase of unclean creeping things, and if it be hidden from him; he also shall be unclean, and guilty.
3 Or if he touch the uncleanness of man, whatsoever uncleanness it be that a man shall be defiled withal, and it be hid from him; when he knoweth of it, then he shall be guilty.
4 Or if a soul swear, pronouncing with his lips to do evil, or to do good, whatsoever it be that a man shall pronounce with an oath, and it be hid from him; when he knoweth of it, then he shall be guilty in one of these.
5 And it shall be, when he shall be guilty in one of these things, that he shall confess that he hath sinned in that thing:
6 And he shall bring his trespass offering unto the LORD for his sin which he hath sinned, a female from the flock, a lamb or a kid of the goats, for a sin offering; and the priest shall make an atonement for him concerning his sin.

For the one who does not understand the sacrificial commandments but is wise enough to observe and heed the warning, "You shall not murder-kill", it is rather in this manner:

Leviticus 5:7-13 KJV
7 And if he be not able to bring a lamb, then he shall bring for his trespass, which he hath committed, two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, unto the LORD; one for a sin offering, and the other for a burnt offering.
8 And he shall bring them unto the priest, who shall offer that which is for the sin offering first, and wring off his head from his neck, but shall not divide it asunder:
9 And he shall sprinkle of the blood of the sin offering upon the side of the altar; and the rest of the blood shall be wrung out at the bottom of the altar: it is a sin offering.
10 And he shall offer the second for a burnt offering, according to the manner: and the priest shall make an atonement for him for his sin which he hath sinned, and it shall be forgiven him.
11 But if he be not able to bring two turtledoves, or two young pigeons, then he that sinned shall bring for his offering the tenth part of an ephah of fine flour for a sin offering; he shall put no oil upon it, neither shall he put any frankincense thereon: for it is a sin offering.
12 Then shall he bring it to the priest, and the priest shall take his handful of it, even a memorial thereof, and burn it on the altar, according to the offerings made by fire unto the LORD: it is a sin offering.
13 And the priest shall make an atonement for him as touching his sin that he hath sinned in one of these, and it shall be forgiven him: and the remnant shall be the priest's, as a meat offering.

The best advice would therefore be that until one realizes that the Torah itself is not "the works of the law" which Paul speaks against, and until one understands the supernal meanings of the supposed animal sacrifices, (literal animals being the interpretation of the Pharisees, Sadducees, Scribes, and carnal minded men), the same should stick with the flour offering or minhah, (KJV "meat offering"), so that one not be found with innocent blood on his or her hands when lifting them up to pray, (Isaiah 1:10-15).

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

You missed a couple verses right before this and I am a strong proponent in looking at all of the context. My suggestion would to read Romans 8:7-8 and how it integrates with this entire passage.

Sorry, I keep on making the same mistake. I assumed, obviously in error, that everyone can make the connection between Romans 8:7-8 (which describes depravity of the fleshly mind and the imposibility of those who are "in the flesh" to please God) and Romans 8:9-10 (which clearly defines who is and isn't "in the flesh" and explains that those who are not "in the flesh" have a dead body because of its sin and a living spirit because of its righteousness).

What I think some people get wrong is that they feel they do not have to obey God but can still be in Christ Romans 8:7-8 clearly rejects this teaching. The father of lies thought this too and it didn’t turn out well for him, 1 John 3:8 We can’t be alive in Christ while living in sin (transgressing God’s law). While this teaching sounds good to itching ears, it is contrary to God’s Word if you look at all of the scriptures. To be truthful it always surprises me that people argue against obeying God the way He asks, as if that is bad or unrighteous. What this is called is being self-righteous and depending upon our own version of righteousness instead of God’s Psa 119:172 our version of truth instead of God’s Truth Psa 119:151. What this does in my opinion is takes away the power of God, but we are unable to sanctify ourselves only God can Eze 20:12 and we are only sanctified by the Truth to God’s Word John 17:17 Can you point to the verse that says we can disobey God’s commandments and that will lead to righteousness. From my bible sin, transgressing God’s law Romans 7:7 1 John 3:4 leads to death Romans 6:16 Rom 6: 23, not righteousness or life. Jesus said if you want to enter into life, keep the commandments Mat 19:17-19 and said when we obey our rules over the commandments of God, one worships in vain Mat 15:3-9. Jesus is our greatest Teacher, came not only to be our Sacrificial Lamb when we sin so we can go to Him, but lived to be our greatest example to follow. 1 John 2:6 and Jesus taught not to break or teach others to break the least of the commandments Mat 5:19-30, Jesus kept them all as our example to follow John 15:10 so whoever is teaching you that its not important to obey God’s commandments is teaching you the opposite of what Jesus taught. Jesus is giving a solution for us when we sin, that we are not lost forever. Only unrepented and perpetual sinners there remains no more sacrifice Hebrews 10:26 Mat 7:21-23 There is no scripture that says we can live in sin and be saved. You seem to be teaching the opposite of what we are told. It goes back to your theory that we can’t overcome sin, but I disagree we can- our Jesus should be bigger than our devil, we just need to believe His promise to deliver us from sin and not in sin Mat 1:21 When we first go to Jesus we should come to Him just as we are- sinners, but as we grow in Jesus He should be transforming our hearts and minds. The law just points out sin so we know what not to do, through Jesus we can overcome sin, I believe this. It’s a promise of scripture Mat 19:26 Rev 14:12

In all of this, you still didn't answer my question:

"Do you see in verses 9 and 10 a contrast between the dead sinful flesh and the alive righteous spirit of the person in whom Christ lives?"​

​

If you can't see this, then you will never understand that our righteousness is in Christ (2 Cor 5:21), and that nothing good dwells in our flesh (Ro 7:18)."

We can’t unless we repent for our sins. Which is what we are told to do when we fall. Mat 4:17 1 John 1:9 Pro 28:13 We are told through Christ we can overcome anything including sin- do you not believe this promise that all things are possible though Jesus? I think it comes down to our faith in Him. Jesus would not ask us to do something that we will be judged by James 2:10-12 Ecc 12:13-14 Mat 5:19-30 if it was impossible to do.

So, your view of "obedience" is a perpetual cycle of sin, guilt, repentance, and forgiveness. And you see this as evidence of "being in Christ"? It is more likely evidence of the curse of the law (Gal 3:13) doing its work (Gal 3:22-25) -- convicting you of sin and condemnation and driving you to Jesus for forgiveness. This is what happens when a person in whom Christ lives seeks rightness with God through obedience to the law instead of accepting the righteousness that is ours in Christ by grace through faith (verse references available upon request).

Weird you would think being righteous (doing the right thing) wouldn’t mean we only worship God, using His name only in a holy way, not bowing to false idols, keeping holy His Sabbath day, not coveting, not stealing not lying and and obeying God would not lead us to righteousness, but disobeying God would. This is not a biblical teaching

How does this response relate to what I said? I said:

In the end, when we try to make the dead flesh (Ro 8:10) righteous through obedience to God's laws (instead of resting in the true righteousness and holiness we have in Christ (Eph 4:24)), we always find ourselves on our knees at the feet of Jesus asking for forgiveness.​

Romans 6:16 as sin is what separated us from God Isa 59:2 and how one could think we can freely continue in sin and be reconciled, is just not something found in scripture. This is why I only trust scriptures instead of peoples teachings, too much at stake. We should want to obey God through love and faith. Rom 3:31 1 John 5:3 John 14:15 Exo 20:6 John 15:10 not to be saved, but because we love Jesus John 14:15 Exo 20:6 and the saved live differently than the lost, they are a peculiar people.

Rev 22:14 Blessed are those who do His commandments, that they may have the right to the tree of life, and may enter through the gates into the city. And compare this promise to the next verse.

We keep going over the same thing, so unless you have something new to add, I’ll leave it as agree to disagree, but wish you well in seeking Truth to God’s precious Word. God bless!

I'll add one more new thing, then we can agree to disagree.

The flesh, which is the source of our sins, will never change, as I have said. Additional clear evidence of this is in Galatians 5:16-18:

16 I say then: Walk in the Spirit, and you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh. 17 For the flesh lusts against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do the things that you wish. 18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law.​

If you have the Spirit, you also have the flesh. You cannot train the flesh to be good by submittin it to God's laws because "These things indeed have an appearance of wisdom in self-imposed religion, false humility, and neglect of the body, but are of no value against the indulgence of the flesh." (Col 2:23) But you can deny the flesh what it wants by walking in lock step with the Holy Spirit (Gal 5:16). If you take every step as the Spirit directs (i.e., you are being led by the Spirit per Gal 5:18), then you are not under the law.

I would note that this does not produce righteousness because we have the new man, created by God, according to God, with "true rightteousness and holiness" (Eph 4:24). And if we "put on the new man" (Eph 4:24, Col 3:10) with it's inherrent righteousenss and holiness and walk in lock step with the Spirit of Christ who is in us, who we are one with in the new man, and who is the source of our righteousness, then we fulfill the call to godly living that is so prevelant throughout Scripture. This is what it is described in Romans 7:6, "But now we have been delivered from the law, having died to what we were held by, so that we should serve in the newness of the Spirit and not in the oldness of the letter."

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

Rom. 8: 1 There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who "walk" not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

I think it's essential to consider "ALL" of Paul's writing, in order to understand him. Whether or not a man is "In Christ", he still "Walks", and he is still flesh. Before repentance, when Paul and the religion he had adopted, were "Children of Disobedience", he walked after this world's desires, religious traditions, etc.

Eph. 2: 2 Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: 3 Among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of "our" flesh, fulfilling the desires of the (our) flesh and of the (our) mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others.

In Paul's case, in times past, he walked according to the religious doctrines and traditions of a religious sect called "The Pharisees". This religion "professed that they knew God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate."

The Jesus of the Bible said about the Pharisees religion "Full well ye reject the commandment of God, that ye may keep your own tradition" and HE said they taught for doctrines the commandments of men.

So yes, there is no good in our flesh, therefore we should not walk after it as it is engaged with the course of this world, and the powers of the air.

Instead, as the Jesus "of the bible" teaches, "If any man will come after me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross, and follow me.

We still walk, we still choose, we just walk after the Words of the Christ, which are Spirit and are Life.

I agree with all of the above, except I would alter the last sentence to reference the Spirit of Christ who lives in our hearts as our leader, teacher, guide, comforter, and source of correction. Obviously, we would be doing this if we actually obeyed the Bible, because the Bible points us to Him, not to itself.

What do you mean here? I understand that if I don't steal or kill others, but I'm an adulterer, I am still living in Sin and am in need of repentance. And Paul does teach;

1 Cor. 6: 9 Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, 10 Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.

Of course, if I follow the Christ's instruction regarding eternal life, "Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

Then I would be careful to walk after the Spirit, which would not "do" any of these things. As God also inspired it to be written;

1 John 2: 5 But whoso keepeth his word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are "in him".

6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

So isn't this the goal of every man who "Says" there are in Him? And Jesus does say
"Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect."

And Paul also says;

Phil. 3: 12 Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus.

13 Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing "I" do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

14 I press toward the mark for the prize of the high calling of God "in Christ Jesus".

As a result of these Biblical Truths and more, I disagree with your stated position.

I said, "You misundertand my position. I say that obedience to God's laws does not lead to righteousness UNLESS it is 100% obedience." You say you disagree with that, yet you quote Jesus as saying we must be perfect just as our Heavenly father is perfect. "Perfect" means "without defect", doesn't it?

What Law did the Pharisees promote to the Galatians? Paul said it pertained to "Justification". If I have sinned, even if I stop sinning, my past sins must be removed before I can be deemed "Righteous". Is this not also your understanding? In the "OT" Law, when a common man such as me sinned, what did Moses instruct that man to do?

I am hoping you will seek the answer, and then simply post the words of Moses defining the "works of the Law" required for justification of a common man that sinned. Then we can come closer to understanding Paul teaching here.

"Law" in Galatians referrs to 1) the 10 commandments, 2) ceremonial laws like not eating with Gentiles, 3) Circumcision, 4) OT Books of the Bible, and 5) any other thing required under the Law given to Israel at Mt. Sainai.

Well, if you were to consider Paul's teaching to the Philippians, and the following to the Romans, I would hope your position might change.

Rom. 6: 15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid.

16 Know ye not, that to whom ye yield yourselves servants to obey,

Notice again that Paul so telling them that "THEY" do the walking, the yielding. Jesus doesn't walk for them. This is a very important Biblical Truth that is pretty much ignored by this world's religions, in my view.

his servants ye are to whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?

Paul, as a Pharisee, "Yielded himself" to the doctrines, Traditions and Laws of the religious sect of the Pharisees, the mainstream religion of Jerusalem in his time, not God as "many" who come in HIS Name falsely preach. Listen to Paul here.

17 But God be thanked, that ye were the servants of sin, but ye have obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine which was delivered you.

18 Being then made free from sin, ye became the servants of (God's) righteousness.

I would hope you can see that Romans 6 points to being made alive in the spirit by our resurrection from the dead together with Christ, making us slaves of righteousness whereas before we were slaves of unrighteousness. Also, I would hope that you can see that the call to Godly living is for us to walk in the newness of life that we have in Christ, not to try to fashion our own righteousness through obedience to the law.

I understand this is the religious philosophy promoted by the religions of this world God placed us in. Just as Paul was born into a world in which religions, professing to know God, existed. And Abraham as well, was told to deny himself, and leave the religions of the world he was born into and follow the Lord.

But I am hoping you might consider the scriptures posted, and something I have come to know over the years of "Yielding myself" to obey God and not this world's religions.

It is written of the Body of the Christ "of the Bible", "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should "walk" in them.

Consider a child that Jesus said to come to Him as. God "Before Ordained" that the child should "WALK". But as an infant, he cannot yet walk. But from the very beginning this is the only goal/duty of the child. Everything it does, is him pressing for the prize of the high calling of God, "To Walk". It rolls over first, then scoots. It bumps into things, cries, but never stops. It falls, hurts himself and cries some more, "but this one thing he does, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before," he continues to push towards that perfect goal, To Walk. He deals with uneven surfaces, stairs, obstacles, fatigue, but through "patient continuance", he overcomes them all, because God places them there to strengthen him, even though he may not know it at the time.

It is the same for the "New Man" which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.. He starts out a "babe in Christ", seeking the milk of the word, and strives against sin, seeking God's Kingdom and God's Righteousness, because the Power is of God, not us. But the world we live in hates God and despises His Instruction in righteousness. It's influence surrounds us on every side.

The religion's of this world tell him he can't overcome. They imply God lied to him, that he is trying to earn perfection. He falls, gets hurt, cries to God, but gets back up and continues. The entire world, and its religions call him names, "Judaizer" "legalist", and they work to discourage him from doing what God instructed and created him to do. But they know and believe that if they endure to the end by putting on the Armor Jesus wore, and overcome the obstacles that are there to make them stronger. They will learn obedience from the things they suffered, and will become, not servants of sin, as they once were, but servant of God's righteousness as were all the examples of those Faithful men in the Scriptures, "that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus".

As Paul also teaches.

2 Cor. 4: 6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

7 But we have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellency of the power may be of God, and not of us. 8 We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are perplexed, but not in despair; 9 Persecuted, but not forsaken; cast down, but not destroyed; 10 Always bearing about in the body the dying of the Lord Jesus, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our body. 11 For we which live are alway delivered unto death for Jesus' sake, that the life also of Jesus might be made manifest in our mortal flesh.

Remember, "7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that "doeth" righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.

I think you need to take to heart the criticism you see as coming from the world. Both the OT (Deut 27:26) and NT (Gal 3:10) place legalistic people under a curse if they are not perfect just as He is perfect (Matthew 5:48). These warnings of Scripture and of people who care for you are meant to help you overcome the self-imposed curse that you place yourself under.

 

[NewLifeInChristJesus]

What are the closest words in Hebrew, Aramaic, or Greek to this , in Scripture?

The word is not in Scripture, but it refers to people who think obedience to the law is the way to be right with God. The best Scripture (in my opinion) that defines who these people are is Galatians 4:21 -- "Tell me, you who desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?" Legalists are the ones who "desire to be under the law".

Here is the Greek (along with Strong's numbers):

21

Tell

me

,

you

who

desire

to

be

under

the

law

,

do

you

Λέγετέ1

μοι2

οἱ3

←

θέλοντες6

→

εἶναι7

ὑπὸ4

→

νόμον5

→

►11

λέγω

ἐγώ

ὁ

θέλω

εἰμί

ὑπό

νόμος

VPAM2P

RP1DS

DNPM

VPAP-PNM

VPAN

P

NASM

3004

3427

3588

2309

1511

5259

3551

	not		hear		the		law	?
	οὐκ10		ἀκούετε11		τὸν8		νόμον9
	οὐ		ἀκούω		ὁ		νόμος
	BN TN		VPAI2P		DASM		NASM
	3756		191		3588		3551

The New King James Version (Ga 4:21). (1982). Thomas Nelson.

 

[Studyman]

The best advice would therefore be that until one realizes that the Torah itself is not "the works of the law" which Paul speaks against,

I agree. Paul is not speaking out against the Torah, in my view. Had the Pharisees believed Moses, and therefore the Torah, they would not have created a religious business selling animals sacrifices in the Temple of God, and most certainly not after Zacharias, Simeon, Anna and the Wise men shared with them who this Man was. And not after 20 years of the man Jesus reasoning with them in the Scriptures before John the Baptist anointed HIM. And not after John the Baptist, sent also by God Himself, told them of their sins for many years of unrecorded events.

So I agree with you here. The "works of the law" the Pharisees were promoting for justification, was not the Torah, but their own false version of the Levitical Priesthood. That has been my understanding for many years now.

and until one understands the supernal meanings of the supposed animal sacrifices, (literal animals being the interpretation of the Pharisees, Sadducees, Scribes, and carnal minded men),

That is my very point. The Pharisees had interpreted the Priesthood falsely and were requiring their version of the Priesthood sacrifices as a requirement for justification.

Hebrews points out,

Heb. 10: 1 For the law, having a shadow of the impending good things, not the selfsame image of the matters, they, with their same sacrifices which they are offering year by year, are never able to perfect to a finality those approaching." 2 Else would they not cease being offered, because those offering divine service, having been once cleansed, are having no longer any consciousness of sins? 3 But in them there is a recollection of sins year by year; 4 for it is impossible for the blood of bulls and of he-goats to be eliminating sins.

In my understanding, the Pharisees had created a religious business selling salvation via their version of these sacrifices, attributing them to the Law of Moses. Yeshua made His Anger very clear about such a religion.

In my view, "many" religious sects of this world, have also created huge religious businesses selling another sacrifice, and that of the Messiah.

 

[Studyman]

I agree with all of the above, except I would alter the last sentence to reference the Spirit of Christ who lives in our hearts as our leader, teacher, guide, comforter, and source of correction. Obviously, we would be doing this if we actually obeyed the Bible, because the Bible points us to Him, not to itself.

Not obviously. "Many" who call Jesus Lord, Lord, do not obey the God of the Bible. And it wasn't the Jews, or Islam or Atheists or Buddhism that Jesus was most concerned about, at least according to HIM.

Matt. 24: 3 And as he sat upon the mount of Olives, the disciples came unto him privately, saying, Tell us, when shall these things be? and what shall be the sign of thy coming, and of the end of the world?

4 And Jesus answered and said unto them, Take heed that no man deceive you.

5 For many shall come "in my name", saying, I (Jesus) am Christ; and shall deceive many.

There is only ONE religion that fits His Description here. And it is compiled of dozens of differing religious businesses and sects, all promoting different doctrines, commandments and traditions. All claiming that the Christ lives in their hearts as their leader, teacher, guide, comforter, and source of correction.

The ONE thing they all have in common besides they all call Jesus Lord, Lord, and Come in His Name, is that their religious traditions cause those who follow them to Transgress God's Commandments. Although not comfortable, this is the reality of our world, and Jesus and Paul did warn us about it.

Col. 2: 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

So my friend, it is not "Obvious" that this world's religions who Call Jesus Lord, are hearing His Sayings, and then "Doing them". In fact, Jesus himself said "FEW" are on this path.

I said, "You misundertand my position. I say that obedience to God's laws does not lead to righteousness UNLESS it is 100% obedience." You say you disagree with that, yet you quote Jesus as saying we must be perfect just as our Heavenly father is perfect. "Perfect" means "without defect", doesn't it?

I posted Paul's very answer to this, why didn't you acknowledge it? Consider the Christ's Word in this very matter.

Ex. 23: 28 And I will send hornets before thee, which shall drive out the Hivite, the Canaanite, and the Hittite, from before thee. 29 I will not drive them out from before thee in one year; lest the land become desolate, and the beast of the field multiply against thee.

30 By little and little I will drive them out from before thee, until thou be increased, and inherit the land.

A child learns how to walk. Jesus "Learned" obedience through the things HE suffered".

Psalms 119: 71 It is good for me that I have been afflicted; that I might learn thy statutes.

Is. 1: 17 Learn to do well; seek judgment, relieve the oppressed, judge the fatherless, plead for the widow. 18 Come now, and let us reason together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool. 19 If ye be willing and obedient, ye shall eat the good of the land:

Matt. 11: 29 Take my yoke upon you, and learn of me; for I am meek and lowly in heart: and ye shall find rest unto your souls.

Matt. 9: 13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

The Salvation of the God "of the Bible" is a "learned" way of life, a journey, a path that leads somewhere, that we are to walk, Jesus doesn't walk it for us. Jesus said to strive for the Path HE walked.

"Law" in Galatians referrs to 1) the 10 commandments, 2) ceremonial laws like not eating with Gentiles, 3) Circumcision, 4) OT Books of the Bible, and 5) any other thing required under the Law given to Israel at Mt. Sainai.

No it isn't. "Many" who come in Christ's Name preach that it is, but if one turns away from this world's religions and their philosophies, and considers "Every word" of God, they will find this is not truth.

And there is NO LAW of God against eating with Gentiles. And the Pharisees were not promoting God's commandments, nor God's Circumcision. As the Jesus "of the Bible" tells us, if we would only believe Him, the Pharisees rejected God's Commandments.

I would hope you can see that Romans 6 points to being made alive in the spirit by our resurrection from the dead together with Christ, making us slaves of righteousness whereas before we were slaves of unrighteousness.

No, Paul is instructing the Body of Christ in what to "DO". If you were right, that Jesus comes in their hearts, and HE does everything for them, then there would be no "Yielding themselves" to obey anything. But that isn't what Paul teaches, that is what this world's religions teach.

This is why the Prophets, Jesus, Peter and Paul warns against listening and yielding themselves servants to obey religions or the men who promote them.

As Peter also teaches.

Acts 5: 28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us. 29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men. 30 The God of our fathers raised up Jesus, whom ye slew and hanged on a tree. 31 Him hath God exalted with his right hand to be a Prince and a Saviour, for to give repentance to Israel, and forgiveness of sins.

32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Also, I would hope that you can see that the call to Godly living is for us to walk in the newness of life that we have in Christ, not to try to fashion our own righteousness through obedience to the law.

How is it "fashioning our own righteousness" to deny our self and following the Christ "of the Bible"? Did Jesus not say "Now go and Sin no more"? Did HE not say "but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."

Did HE not say "And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Shall I turn from HIM, and follow the religious philosophy of this world?

Shall I become just another of many, Who professes that I know God; but in works I deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.?

I think you need to take to heart the criticism you see as coming from the world. Both the OT (Deut 27:26) and NT (Gal 3:10) place legalistic people under a curse if they are not perfect just as He is perfect (Matthew 5:48). These warnings of Scripture and of people who care for you are meant to help you overcome the self-imposed curse that you place yourself under.

You once said "We must always be open to the possibility that our views are contrary to what the Holy Spirit is trying to teach us."

I posted Paul's own words regarding his journey to perfection. I posted Paul's instruction to the Body of Christ regarding to whom they should "Yield themselves" servants to obey. I posted Paul's own Words on how the Body of Christ becomes "Servants of God's Righteousness" thus fulfilling the instruction I posted from John 2: 6 He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked.

But all these scriptures, and pretty much the entire Law and Prophets, are contrary to what you are promoting. To the point that you imply here, that if I trust the Jesus "of the Bible" and His Father, the One True God that this same Jesus said to know was Eternal Life, that I am placing myself under a self-imposed curse.

So in essence, you are trying to convince me that God is lying to me, and Jesus doesn't know what HE is talking about. And much of Paul's teaching is false. And that rejecting all these Words of God and more, doesn't mean anything. Basically saying to me that "I shall surely not die" if I reject this God and follow the other religious voice in the garden God placed me in. Just as the Mainstream Preachers of Jerusalem in Paul's Time, told the Galatians, No Galatians, you need to adopt and promote our religious voice.

All I'm saying is what if Jesus is right? What if God is Right? What if Paul is right?

And it is the religious businesses and sects of this world that the Prophets, Jesus and His Apostles warned about, that are deceived? And not the Author of the Bible.

It seems prudent to consider these things, as Paul also teaches.

1 Cor. 10: 11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.

12 Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

 

[Icyspark]

Cool The next step is that I see the law as a single unit, indivisible.

This is not to say that we can't make artificial divisions. We could say that these instructions contain the word Levite, and these instructions don't. But that would be an artificial division.

Again, not asking you to agree or disagree, just if you're able to follow what I'm saying.

Bible Gateway passage: Deuteronomy 12:32 - New American Standard Bible

“Whatever I command you, you shall be careful to do; you shall not add to nor take anything away from it.

www.biblegateway.com

Bible Gateway passage: Galatians 3:10 - New American Standard Bible

For all who are of works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written: “CURSED IS EVERYONE WHO DOES NOT ABIDE BY ALL THE THINGS WRITTEN IN THE BOOK OF THE LAW, TO DO THEM.”

www.biblegateway.com

Hi Leaf473,

Icy what you're saying, while not saying I'm in agreement.

Please continue.

But for the grace of God go I,cyspark