Works Relation to Salvation

[BNR32FAN]

Do you know why incest was made illegal? Adam's sons and daughters married each other as there was no one else around. But more importantly the human body came from God's hand perfect in every in every respect. In other words there were no genetic mutations as there were by the time of the Iaraelites so that relatives marrying each other greatly increased the chances of birth defects. You don't believe that? Look at how life times dropped off after the flood. The earth's environment changed radically and we now have issues that cause many more genetic defects.

You're arguing against God's law based on a misunderstanding of His love for us.

And what about the dietary laws, circumcision, and the numerous other laws given in the Mosaic law that even the SDA say have been abolished like for example all the feasts festivals and sabbaths? And genetic mutations had nothing to do with why people stopped living so long, it was because God declared that man would not live beyond 120 years in the days of Noah.

 

[Bob S]

Sanctification and the Sabbath are inextricably linked together. You will find no such promises linked to any other day of the week.

I'll stick with God and His promises.

Read 1Jn 3:19-24. That is His promise. Remember God only gave one nation the Sabbath command. The remainder of the world had no idea it existed. Were they all lost? Think about it.

Gary, tell us where God has ever required Gentiles to observe the Sabbath.

 

[Gary K]

biblereasons.com › sabbath

25 Important Bible Verses About The Sabbath Day (Powerful)​

Aug 28, 20232. Exodus 20:8-10 "Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God.
On it you shall not do any work, neither you, nor your son or daughter, nor your male or female servant, nor your animals, nor any foreigner residing in your towns."

You beat me to it.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

He didn’t only quote the 10 commandments in that particular sermon.

““It was said, ‘Whoever sends his wife away, let him give her a certificate of divorce’;”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5‬:‭31‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Let’s quote this passage…

Jesus teaches not to break the least of the commandment(s) and the commandments He is referring to as He is quoting directly from the Ten. Are there other commandment(s) from this unit Jesus is quoting from aside these two. Yes, of course so not sure why one would overlook that we can break any of the commandment (least), which includes the Sabbath commandment in this unit of Ten. Similar to what James says- we break one commandment quoting and contrasting from the Ten we break them all. James 2:10-12. The Sabbath is a commandment of God that He wrote and spoke and added no more. Any other conclusion is not being honest with these passages, which essentially is making the warning Jesus gives for our correction and instruction for righteousness of no effect.

Jesus also ties two other things with these commandments- judgement which James and Solomon does as well James 2:10-12 Ecc 12:13-14 and sin which Paul does as well Romans 7:7 and look what Jesus says about those who sin in this passage

Matthew 5:19 Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven. 20 For I say to you, that unless your righteousness exceeds the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you will by no means enter the kingdom of heaven. 21 “You have heard that it was said to those of old,‘You shall not murder, and whoever murders will be in danger of the judgment.’ 22 But I say to you thatwhoever is angry with his brother [e]without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment. And whoever says to his brother, ‘Raca!’ shall be in danger of the council. But whoever says, ‘You fool!’ shall be in danger of [h]hell fire. 23 Therefore if you bring your gift to the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your gift there before the altar, and go your way. First be reconciled to your brother, and then come and offer your gift.25 Agree with your adversary quickly, while you are on the way with him, lest your adversary deliver you to the judge, the judge hand you over to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Assuredly, I say to you, you will by no means get out of there till you have paid the last penny. 27 “You have heard that it was said to those of old,‘You shall not commit adultery.’ 28 But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye causes you to sin, pluck it out and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell. 30 And if your right hand causes you to sin, cut it off and cast it from you; for it is more profitable for you that one of your members perish, than for your whole body to be cast into hell.

Jesus said FUTHERMORE. Which means in addition to- so after teaching not to break or teach others to break the least of the commandments quoting directly from the unit of Ten He continues stating In addition to…. note how He connects divorce with the commandment of adultery…as there are many sub-laws to the Ten Commandments.

31 “Furthermore it has been said, ‘Whoever divorces his wife, let him give her a certificate of divorce.’32 But I say to you that whoever divorces his wife for any reason except sexual immorality causes her to commit adultery; and whoever marries a woman who is divorced commits adultery.

““You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5‬:‭38‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Please quote where this is a commandment. This is talking about judgement and how we shouldn’t judge each other or take revenge. Vengeance and Judgement is for Jesus alone.

Heb 10:26 For if we sin (break God’s law) willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a certain fearful expectation of judgment, and fiery indignation which will devour the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has rejected Moses’ law dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. 29 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. And again, “The Lord will judge His people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

No you need to read Leviticus 23 again this was after the 10 commandments were given. Leviticus 1 begins with God speaking to Moses from the tent of meeting which wasn’t constructed until Exodus 39.

“Then the Lord called to Moses and spoke to him from the tent of meeting, saying,”
‭‭Leviticus‬ ‭1‬:‭1‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

“Thus all the work of the tabernacle of the tent of meeting was completed; and the sons of Israel did according to all that the Lord had commanded Moses; so they did.”
‭‭Exodus‬ ‭39‬:‭32‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

Leviticus 23 was NOT commended at Exodus 20 it was added afterwards which makes it an ordinance according to the SDA claims about commandments that were not part of the 10 commandments.

Sorry I’m not following. The Ten Commandments were written and spoken by God formally given in Exo 20 but always existed as it is what defines sin Romans 7:7. No law, no sin Rom 4:15 - when did sin start 1 John 3:8 Scripture reveals more on the Ten Commandments that can’t be in contradiction to what God wrote and God spoke in the commandments. For example Jesus related murder not just with the physical act but also with the feeling that start in the heart- does that change thou shalt not murder because we received more details about this commandment and now makes it an ordinance? God knows what He is doing and in God’s own Words that He wrote and He spoke He called the unit of Ten My commandments. Exo 20:6

In the NC the Sabbath commandment never changed, was edited or ended, its still a commandment kept by Jesus and His followers.

Luke 23:56 Then they returned and prepared spices and fragrant oils. And they rested on the Sabbath according to the commandment.

Choose Truth- it’s the only way we are sanctified and it’s the only thing that will set us free.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

The Sabbath commandment was not commanded to Adam & Eve. God didn’t give the sabbath commandment until Moses that’s why the Israelites didn’t know about it until Moses told them.

“You divided the sea before them, So they passed through the midst of the sea on dry ground; And their pursuers You hurled into the depths, Like a stone into raging waters. And with a pillar of cloud You led them by day, And with a pillar of fire by night To light for them the way In which they were to go. Then You came down on Mount Sinai, And spoke with them from heaven; You gave them just ordinances and true laws, Good statutes and commandments. So You made known to them Your holy sabbath, And laid down for them commandments, statutes and law, Through Your servant Moses.”
‭‭Nehemiah‬ ‭9‬:‭11‬-‭14‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

The Israelites were not in the Garden, which was when the Sabbath first started according to God Exo 20:11 made for man Mark 2:27 so not sure your point. Scripture shows the Israelites were keeping the Sabbath commandment prior to the written instructions just like Abraham who kept God’s commandments Gen 26:5. God’s people keep God’s commandments through love and faith. 1 John 5:3 Romans 3:31 Exo 20:6 John 14:15, Rev 14:12 Rev 22:15. God is just trying to bless us, so not sure why people fight His blessing so much.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I’m not going to reply to anyone in particular in this post but people need to take the word of God seriously and stop twisting it to out of context, ignoring passages that refute their theology, and making up whatever false doctrines they want. This is not a game this is the word of God we’re discussing here. There is only one truth and the scriptures teach us that truth. We are not free to interpret the scriptures however we want and if our doctrines and theology are in conflict with the scriptures then we need to reevaluate our theology and change our doctrines so that they coincide with all scripture harmoniously without contradiction. Some people in this discussion want to play games and pretend they can’t understand simple elementary word usage and pretend they can’t understand the passages that refute their theology. When these passages are put before them they pretend they don’t understand them and intentionally twist them. To these people their pride is more important than learning and preaching the truth of God’s word. They’d rather ignore the truth of God that is right in front of them than admit their mistakes. This doesn’t honor God, by doing this they’re only working against Him in His efforts to teach people who He is, what He expects of us, and what He has done for us. People need to recognize that when the word of God says your theology is wrong you need to acknowledge it and accept it otherwise your not teaching the word of God, your only teaching your own made up fantasy that has no truth to it.

 

[Gary K]

I’m not going to reply to anyone in particular in this post but people need to take the word of God seriously and stop twisting it to out of context, ignoring passages that refute their theology, and making up whatever false doctrines they want. This is not a game this is the word of God we’re discussing here. There is only one truth and the scriptures teach us that truth. We are not free to interpret the scriptures however we want and if our doctrines and theology are in conflict with the scriptures then we need to reevaluate our theology and change our doctrines so that they coincide with all scripture harmoniously without contradiction. Some people in this discussion want to play games and pretend they can’t understand simple elementary word usage and pretend they can’t understand the passages that refute their theology. When these passages are put before them they pretend they don’t understand them and intentionally twist them. To these people their pride is more important than learning and preaching the truth of God’s word. They’d rather ignore the truth of God that is right in front of them than admit their mistakes. This doesn’t honor God, by doing this they’re only working against Him in His efforts to teach people who He is, what He expects of us, and what He has done for us. People need to recognize that when the word of God says your theology is wrong you need to acknowledge it and accept it otherwise your not teaching the word of God, your only teaching your own made up fantasy that has no truth to it.

You need to read Hebrews 8 again.

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.
Heb 8:8 For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah:
Heb 8:9 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day when I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt; because they continued not in my covenant, and I regarded them not, saith the Lord.
Heb 8:10 For this is the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, saith the Lord; I will put my laws into their mind, and write them in their hearts: and I will be to them a God, and they shall be to me a people:
Heb 8:11 And they shall not teach every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for all shall know me, from the least to the greatest.

This is a much different slant than you put on things. This is the Biblical slant. The new covenant was given to the Jews and Israel. Not to Gentiles. Thus it cannot be used to justify breaking one of God's commands which religious Jews still keep.

The problem was never with the law. God tells us it was with the Israelites and Jews.

I hear the idea around here a lot that no one can keep God's law. Why? The new covenant tells us the law will be written in our hearts. And Ezekiel tells us that God will put His Spirit within us, and give us a new heart.

Eze 36:25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new Spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Jesus told the Jews of His day that Moses allowed them to divorce their wives because of the hardness of their hearts and Ezekiel tells us that God is going to remove our stony hearts and that God will replace them with soft hearts that are capable of keeping God;s law and His judgments. So why can't we keep them? Jesus tells us that it will be done to us according to our faith. So unless we actually believe God's promises, He can't do what He wants to for us.

 

[BNR32FAN]

You need to read Hebrews 8 again.



This is a much different slant than you put on things. This is the Biblical slant. The new covenant was given to the Jews and Israel. Not to Gentiles. Thus it cannot be used to justify breaking one of God's commands which religious Jews still keep.

The problem was never with the law. God tells us it was with the Israelites and Jews.

I hear the idea around here a lot that no one can keep God's law. Why? The new covenant tells us the law will be written in our hearts. And Ezekiel tells us that God will put His Spirit within us, and give us a new heart.



Jesus told the Jews of His day that Moses allowed them to divorce their wives because of the hardness of their hearts and Ezekiel tells us that God is going to remove our stony hearts and that God will replace them with soft hearts that are capable of keeping God;s law and His judgments. So why can't we keep them? Jesus tells us that it will be done to us according to our faith. So unless we actually believe God's promises, He can't do what He wants to for us.

Are you implying that Hebrews 8 is teaching that we can make up any doctrines we want regardless of whether or not they coincide with the scriptures?

 

[Gary K]

Are you implying that Hebrews 8 is teaching that we can make up any doctrines we want regardless of whether or not they coincide with the scriptures?

I'm sorry, but I find that humorous.

You don't bother to try to show how the scripture I quoted is somehow wrong, you just jump right into a personal attack. That's a sure sign someone recognizes they are wrong on something. I've learned that in the decades I've spent on line posting on all kinds of forums.

You might try just demonstrating what I said is wrong. It works far better.

 

[Gary K]

Jesus said the following.

Mar_10:14 But when Jesus saw it, he was much displeased, and said unto them, Suffer the little children to come unto me, and forbid them not: for of such is the kingdom of God.

Why would He say that? Because little kids are very trusting of their parents. They take them at their word. They trust them implicitly. Jesus told us to be the same way. Implied in that statement is just taking God at His plain spoken word. Also kids don't have fully developed intellects so they don't go looking for hidden meanings or convoluted logic. They just accept what is plainly said.

Do you think a trusting child would go looking for a hidden meaning in the following verses or just accept them as they are written? Remember Jesus said we should be like children who trust their parents.

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new Spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
Eze 36:27 And I will put my Spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

I've known really fine Christian people who simply didn't have the intellectual where with all to even come on line let alone understand complicated logic. They just trusted that God loved them as the Bible plainly tells us and God rewarded that faith by teaching them more about Him until they became truly loving people who helped others constantly with the few means they had. They were truly righteous people because righreousness is love. Jesus made that abundantly clear with His life here on earth.

 

[BNR32FAN]

fixed

 

[BNR32FAN]

I'm sorry, but I find that humorous.

You don't bother to try to show how the scripture I quoted is somehow wrong, you just jump right into a personal attack. That's a sure sign someone recognizes they are wrong on something. I've learned that in the decades I've spent on line posting on all kinds of forums.

You might try just demonstrating what I said is wrong. It works far better.

It’s not an attack it’s a simple question to clarify your position. Before I can comment on the scriptures you posted I first have to understand why you posted them.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Why would He say that? Because little kids are very trusting of their parents. They take them at their word. They trust them implicitly. Jesus told us to be the same way. Implied in that statement is just taking God at His plain spoken word. Also kids don't have fully developed intellects so they don't go looking for hidden meanings or convoluted logic. They just accept what is plainly said.

Oh you mean like Colossians 2:16-17

“Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2‬:‭16‬-‭17‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So we shouldn’t apply any hidden meanings to this, right?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Do you think a trusting child would go looking for a hidden meaning in the following verses or just accept them as they are written? Remember Jesus said we should be like children who trust their parents.

Can you please quote where I’m providing hidden meanings to verses?

 

[Gary K]

Oh you mean like Colossians 2:16-17

“Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2‬:‭16‬-‭17‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So we shouldn’t apply any hidden meanings to this, right?

There is more than one way to read it.

The Jew on Paul understood it to mean don't let anyone judge you for not keeping those laws that went away at Jesus' death. The laws he listed there went away just like the rite of circumcision did at the death of Jesus so the OT prophecy could be fulfilled.

Isa_56:7 Even them will I bring to my holy mountain, and make them joyful in my house of prayer: their burnt offerings and their sacrifices shall be accepted upon mine altar; for mine house shall be called an house of prayer for all people.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Oh you mean like Colossians 2:16-17

“Therefore no one is to act as your judge in regard to food or drink or in respect to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath day things which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ.”
‭‭Colossians‬ ‭2‬:‭16‬-‭17‬ ‭NASB1995‬‬

So we shouldn’t apply any hidden meanings to this, right?

The context is in Col 2:14 KJV

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

So we know this from Colossians 2:14:
1. They are handwritten
2. They are ordinances
3. They are contrary.

Does this fit the Sabbath commandment in any way?
1. The Sabbath was finger-written by God (not by hand) Exo 31:18 Exo 32:16
2. The Sabbath is a commandment of God (not an ordinance). Exodus 20, Exodus 34:28 Deut 4:13 Exo 20:8-11 Exo 20:6
3. God said the Sabbath is holy and blessed (not cursed and contrary) Exodus 20:8-11 Genesis 2:1-3
Note: once God blesses something man cannot reverse it Num 23:20, so one would need a thus saith the Lord to do away with God's holy Sabbath day, which does not exist. There is another safeguard in scripture how many twist the words of Paul 2 Peter 3:16 and Paul does not have authority to take away one of God's commandments.

There are more than one Sabbath in scripture but only one weekly Sabbath that is a commandment of God blessed and made holy by God, written by His very own finger..


So what is this verse referring to:


Deuteronomy 31:24 So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished, 25 that Moses commanded the Levites, who bore the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying: 26 “Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there as a witness against you;

The book that contained the ordinances were outside the ark- all of the Ten Commandments, which includes the Sabbath commandment are inside the ark.

Colossians 2:17 gives us more insight...

Col 2:17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

Lets go to Hebrews 10 as it explains it....


Hebrews10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. 5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’ ”
8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, [b]O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been [c]sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all

1 Cor 5:7 For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.

Sin is the transgression of God's law 1 John 3:4 Romans 7:7 Jesus didn't die so we can continue in sin, but to continue living in His grace through faith, keeping His commandments by love 1 John 5:3 Romans 3:31

 

[BNR32FAN]

There is more than one way to read it.

The Jew on Paul understood it to mean don't let anyone judge you for not keeping those laws that went away at Jesus' death. The laws he listed there went away just like the rite of circumcision did at the death of Jesus so the OT prophecy could be fulfilled.

There’s more than one way to read it without hidden meanings?

 

[BNR32FAN]

There is more than one way to read it.

The Jew on Paul understood it to mean don't let anyone judge you for not keeping those laws that went away at Jesus' death. The laws he listed there went away just like the rite of circumcision did at the death of Jesus so the OT prophecy could be fulfilled.

Also you never did clarify why you quoted Hebrews 8 in response to my post.

 

[BNR32FAN]

The context is in Col 2:14 KJV

Col 2:14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

So we know this from Colossians 2:14:
1. They are handwritten
2. They are ordinances
3. They are contrary.

Does this fit the Sabbath commandment in any way?
1. The Sabbath was finger-written by God (not by hand) Exo 31:18 Exo 32:16
2. The Sabbath is a commandment of God (not an ordinance). Exodus 20, Exodus 34:28 Deut 4:13 Exo 20:8-11 Exo 20:6
3. God said the Sabbath is holy and blessed (not cursed and contrary) Exodus 20:8-11 Genesis 2:1-3
Note: once God blesses something man cannot reverse it Num 23:20, so one would need a thus saith the Lord to do away with God's holy Sabbath day, which does not exist. There is another safeguard in scripture how many twist the words of Paul 2 Peter 3:16 and Paul does not have authority to take away one of God's commandments.

There are more than one Sabbath in scripture but only one weekly Sabbath that is a commandment of God blessed and made holy by God, written by His very own finger..


So what is this verse referring to:


Deuteronomy 31:24 So it was, when Moses had completed writing the words of this law in a book, when they were finished, 25 that Moses commanded the Levites, who bore the ark of the covenant of the Lord, saying: 26 “Take this Book of the Law, and put it beside the ark of the covenant of the Lord your God, that it may be there as a witness against you;

The book that contained the ordinances were outside the ark- all of the Ten Commandments, which includes the Sabbath commandment are inside the ark.

Colossians 2:17 gives us more insight...

Col 2:17 which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

Lets go to Hebrews 10 as it explains it....


Hebrews10:1 For the law, having a shadow of the good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with these same sacrifices, which they offer continually year by year, make those who approach perfect. 2 For then would they not have ceased to be offered? For the worshipers, once purified, would have had no more consciousness of sins. 3 But in those sacrifices there is a reminder of sins every year. 4 For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and goats could take away sins. 5 Therefore, when He came into the world, He said:

“Sacrifice and offering You did not desire,
But a body You have prepared for Me.
6 In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin
You had no pleasure.
7 Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come—
In the volume of the book it is written of Me—
To do Your will, O God.’ ”
8 Previously saying, “Sacrifice and offering, burnt offerings, and offerings for sin You did not desire, nor had pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will, [b]O God.” He takes away the first that He may establish the second. 10 By that will we have been [c]sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all

1 Cor 5:7 For indeed Christ, our Passover, was sacrificed for us.

Sin is the transgression of God's law 1 John 3:4 Romans 7:7 Jesus didn't die so we can continue in sin, but to continue living in His grace through faith, keeping His commandments by love 1 John 5:3 Romans 3:31

And you completely missed the point about hidden meanings being attributed to the scriptures.