Works Relation to Salvation

[BNR32FAN]

***shakes head in wonder***

The fourth commandment talks about the creator.



Not what the creator is but who the creator is. Who He is tells us He has the moral right to tell us how to live.

This is really basic logic and basic understanding of the concept of morality.

Sigh: Is anyone here in this thread saying that the sabbath never existed or that God didn’t rest on the seventh day? Everyone here acknowledges these facts so I’ll ask again, what does this have to do with the discussion? Do I have to go to church every Saturday in order to know that God rested on the seventh day? I’ve never been to church on Saturday in my entire life and I know this.

And your closing statement fails to acknowledge the purpose of the sabbath. The sabbath was not made for us to worship God, it was given to us for a day of rest. This is another problem with SDA theology is that it teaches that the sabbath was created for God not for us. There’s nothing immoral about worshipping God on Sunday.

 

[Gary K]

Sigh: Is anyone here in this thread saying that the sabbath never existed or that God didn’t rest on the seventh day? Everyone here acknowledges these facts so I’ll ask again, what does this have to do with the discussion? Do I have to go to church every Saturday in order to know that God rested on the seventh day? I’ve never been to church on Saturday in my entire life and I know this.

And your closing statement fails to acknowledge the purpose of the sabbath. The sabbath was not made for us to worship God, it was given to us for a day of rest. This is another problem with SDA theology is that it teaches that the sabbath was created for God not for us. There’s nothing immoral about worshipping God on Sunday.

No, SDA beliefs do not teach what you allege. We believe the Sabbath is a gift from God so we can devote an entire day each week working on our relationship with Him. God uses the analogy of marriage all throughout the OT to describe His desired relationship with us.

Anyone who has ever been married for any length of time knows how much time and effort it takes to make their marriage a successful one that lasts until death separates them. That is the same with our relationship with God. It takes us an entire life time to get to know Him as He is so much different than anyone else we have ever met. I fully believe that His love is beyond our comprehension and the Bible even tells us that.

Isa_55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, declares the LORD.
Isa_55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways and my thoughts than your thoughts.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

This is another problem with SDA theology is that it teaches that the sabbath was created for God not for us.

This statement is not in reality....here is an example.. You're the one who claimed the Sabbath was created for God, not for man.

Yeah did He say anyone else rested on that day? No He didn’t. You know this, that’s why you haven’t shown any scripture that says that anyone actually kept the sabbath before Exodus 16. Were talking about the sabbath commandment not what God did at creation.

My response:

Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man, Mark 2:27, man was created in the very image of God Gen 1:26 to follow God and do you really think when God made man on the sixth day before the very first Sabbath and God rested from His work and hallowed the Sabbath Exo 20:11 that man did something different than rest with God?

It is inconceivable that after God created man in His image that our first parents didn't keep the Sabbath with God on that very first Sabbath after they were just created, but choose to do something else in rebellion, instead of resting with God. God just wants to spend time with us, which is why He blessed, sanctified and made the Sabbath day holy to do so. We can't sanctify ourselves, only God can Eze 20:12 and the Sabbath is meant to bless us and sadly so many miss out. Isa 58:13-14

There’s nothing immoral about worshipping God on Sunday.

But there is when we do not obey one of God's commandments, which the Sabbath is. The first Church started by Jesus Himself kept the Sabbath as well as His followers and His disciples. Luke 4:16, Acts 13:42, Acts 13:44, Acts 18:4, Luke 23:56. Man decided to do their own thing, and Jesus in His very own words said one is worshipping in vain when we follow man's traditions over the commandments of God quoting right from the unit of Ten, Mat 15:3-9 that He wrote and He spoke which we should keep through faith and love. Rom 3:31, 1 John 5:3

 

[BNR32FAN]

No, SDA beliefs do not teach what you allege. We believe the Sabbath is a gift from God so we can devote an entire day each week working on our relationship with Him. God uses the analogy of marriage all throughout the OT to describe His desired relationship with us.

I’m curious, how long is the worship service at your church?

 

[BNR32FAN]

No, SDA beliefs do not teach what you allege. We believe the Sabbath is a gift from God so we can devote an entire day each week working on our relationship with Him. God uses the analogy of marriage all throughout the OT to describe His desired relationship with us.

Anyone who has ever been married for any length of time knows how much time and effort it takes to make their marriage a successful one that lasts until death separates them. That is the same with our relationship with God. It takes us an entire life time to get to know Him as He is so much different than anyone else we have ever met. I fully believe that His love is beyond our comprehension and the Bible even tells us that.

Right but can that only be accomplished on Saturday? Can’t do that any other day of the week?

 

[BNR32FAN]

My response:

Jesus said the Sabbath was made for man, Mark 2:27, man was created in the very image of God Gen 1:26 to follow God and do you really think when God made man on the sixth day before the very first Sabbath and God rested from His work and hallowed the Sabbath Exo 20:11 that man did something different than rest with God?

Yes I do because NO ONE ANYWHERE BEFORE EXODUS 16 IS MENTIONED RESTING ON THE SABBATH IN THE SCRIPTURES. What this means is you’ve completely made this up all on your own with no evidence to support it. Do you think it’s important that we should be careful what we preach, or should we just preach whatever best suits us?

 

[Gary K]

I’m curious, how long is the worship service at your church?

I would imagine it;s the same as your church. With the Sabbath school program. the lesson study, and the sermon, with the slack time in between programs it's around 3 hours.

 

[Gary K]

Right but can that only be accomplished on Saturday? Can’t do that any other day of the week?

Because God tells us what day on which to worship Him.

 

[Leaf473]

Most Jreish beliegs comefrom the Talmud, not the Torah. It's been that way for centuries. It's wny the Phsrisees and Sadducees murdered Jesus. When their traditions conflict with the Torah they follow their traditions.

That's true that most Jewish beliefs come from the Talmud. But they also have knowledge from the scriptures themselves.
_________________
To retrace our discussion, we were talking about which laws Jesus is referring to when he says "the law and the prophets". I understand that to mean the entire law. I understood you to be saying he meant only the ten commandments and the dietary laws here

Yes. He makes sure we understand that too by telling us which laws are eternal. There will be no death in heaven so there will be no meat esting and the Sabbath will be kept there for eternity. So, the 10 commandments and the dietary laws will be kept eternally.

I asked if Jesus talked about this in a particular passage or passages or something like that. Your response

Yes. He makes sure we understand that too by telling us which laws are eternal. There will be no death in heaven so there will be no meat esting and the Sabbath will be kept there for eternity. So, the 10 commandments and the dietary laws will be kept eternally.

I asked for more detail

Where does Jesus say those things?

And you responded with Isaiah 66:23, "from Sabbath to Sabbath". But other things are talked about in that same passage.

When I asked for details about the dietary laws, your response was that the Jews already knew about them. That's true, but how does that separate them from the rest of the law in the Old Testament, such that we know for sure that Jesus is referring only to the ten commandments and dietary laws when he says the law and the prophets?

 

[SabbathBlessings]

Yes I do because NO ONE ANYWHERE BEFORE EXODUS 16 IS MENTIONED RESTING ON THE SABBATH IN THE SCRIPTURES.

Which was before the commandment was officially written at Mt Sinai so obviously the commandments were already given to God's people Which is why it was a sin for Cain to murder Abel because thou shalt not murder from God's Ten Commandments was already given. No law no sin. Romans 4:15 Romans 7:7. The Sabbath was at Creation according to God Exo 20:11 made for man Mark 2:27 before the fall of man and part of God's perfect plan which is why Sabbath worship, which is what the Sabbath is about, resting in God will be restored for God's people back in His presence for all eternity. Isa 66:22-23 Sin separated man from God so now instead of worshipping Him in His presence we worship Him through His Spirit on His holy Sabbath day, and He sanctifies and blesses us. Eze 20:13 Isa 58:13-14

What this means is you’ve completely made this up all on your own with no evidence to support it. Do you think it’s important that we should be careful what we preach, or should we just preach whatever best suits us?

Ok, so you think Adam and Eve rebelled from God, right after He just created them and instead of spending the Sabbath with God that was made for them (and us), they did their own thing. Got it. I think you are mistaking His children today with His first children. They didn't rebel from God until later, over something they ate that they shouldn't have, as well as breaking a slew of other commandments.

 

[Bob S]

Demonstrate your Biblical evidence that there will be sin in heaven.

So Gary, I demonstrated in my post #424 that Isaiah said in Chapter 65 that there would be sin in Heaven. You didn't respond, why?

How is there going to be sin, as all sin causes pain, and there will be no more pain in heaven?

We both know that, but Isaiah wrote that man would die, those who become accurse would die sooner and babies will be born. If we cannot agree with Isiah' portrayal of Heaven in Is 65 how can we really on his portrayal of Heaven in IS 66??

I've already posted this verse to you and yet you're willing to blatantly contradict it.

What verse Gary?

 

[Gary K]

That's true that most Jewish beliefs come from the Talmud. But they also have knowledge from the scriptures themselves.
_________________
To retrace our discussion, we were talking about which laws Jesus is referring to when he says "the law and the prophets". I understand that to mean the entire law. I understood you to be saying he meant only the ten commandments and the dietary laws here


I asked if Jesus talked about this in a particular passage or passages or something like that. Your response


I asked for more detail

And you responded with Isaiah 66:23, "from Sabbath to Sabbath". But other things are talked about in that same passage.

When I asked for details about the dietary laws, your response was that the Jews already knew about them. That's true, but how does that separate them from the rest of the law in the Old Testament, such that we know for sure that Jesus is referring only to the ten commandments and dietary laws when he says the law and the prophets?

Beause there will be no death in heaven. No death means no meat eating in heaven.

 

[Gary K]

New Heavens and a New Earth​

17 “See, I will create
new heavens and a new earth.
The former things will not be remembered,
nor will they come to mind. Yet it tells us in IS 66:24 “And they will go out and look on the dead bodies of those who rebelled against me; the worms that eat them will not die, the fire that burns them will not be quenched, and they will be loathsome to all mankind.” That seems to me as remembering every Sabbath after bowing down before God for 24 hours.
18 But be glad and rejoice forever
in what I will create,
for I will create Jerusalem to be a delight
and its people a joy.
19 I will rejoice over Jerusalem
and take delight in my people;
the sound of weeping and of crying
will be heard in it no more.
20 “Never again will there be in it
an infant who lives but a few days,
or an old man who does not live out his years; Seems like that means we will die at some point.
the one who dies at a hundred
will be thought a mere child;
the one who fails to reach a hundred
will be considered accursed. This is the verse that indicates some will sin and not be able to live out their lives.
21 They will build houses and dwell in them;
they will plant vineyards and eat their fruit.
22 No longer will they build houses and others live in them,
or plant and others eat.
For as the days of a tree,
so will be the days of my people;
my chosen ones will long enjoy
the work of their hands.
23 They will not labor in vain,
nor will they bear children doomed to misfortune; Yet we are told we will not know our wives in that way
for they will be a people blessed by the Lord,
they and their descendants with them.
24 Before they call I will answer;
while they are still speaking I will hear.
25 The wolf and the lamb will feed together,
and the lion will eat straw like the ox,
and dust will be the serpent’s food.
They will neither harm nor destroy
on all my holy mountain,”
says the Lord.

I guess you will have to ask Isaiah that question

Which verse is "this verse"?

Okay Gary, we both know that what Isiah wrote in IS 65 is confusing and does not portray the glimpses of what Heaven will really be. What I am trying to point out to you is that Isiah 65 and 66 cannot be trusted as being the true version of Heaven. How can you intelligently use IS 66:23 anymore than I could use anything about the new Earth in IS 65 or IS 65:24?

SDAs have a lot to learn, but they have been so conditioned with certain scripture (proof texts) that you refuse to consider texts that prove no one is under the ceremonial Laws of the old covenant which does include all of the old covenant Sabbaths. I can see that your are really confused with the scripture we are presenting. Take your SDA glasses off and read the WORD. Not only have we presented to you the truth, but there is a lot more to deal with concerning the SDA prophet and all of her writings. Ellen White has written so many things that have proven to be wrong. Most SDAs do not follow her "I saws" yet tell us her writings are equal to scripture. What a mess, oy.

What I am going to respond to here is your assertion that Isaiah 66 can't be trusted.

I have a major issue with this as Paul tells us all scripture is given by inspiration of God as is profitable for doctrine, reproof, and instruction in righteousness, What I see you doing is picking and choosing what scripture you will believe and what you will reject. It seems you don't have a wide enough grasp of Biblical concepts as Revelation gives us the explanation for understanding Isaiah's comments are figurative.

Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Then another book was opened, which is the book of life. And the dead were judged by what was written in the books, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:13 And the sea gave up the dead who were in it, Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them, and they were judged, each one of them, according to what they had done.
Rev 20:14 Then Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire.
Rev 20:15 And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Peter tells us how hot this lake of fire is.

2Pe 3:12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat.

Just how do you see bones surviving that kind of heat?

 

[BNR32FAN]

Because God tells us what day on which to worship Him.

Where does God say we’re to worship Him on the Sabbath? The words “holy convocation” doesn’t mean worship it means an assembly.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Which was before the commandment was officially written at Mt Sinai so obviously the commandments were already given to God's people Which is why it was a sin for Cain to murder Abel because thou shalt not murder from God's Ten Commandments was already given. No law no sin. Romans 4:15 Romans 7:7. The Sabbath was at Creation according to God Exo 20:11 made for man Mark 2:27 before the fall of man and part of God's perfect plan which is why Sabbath worship, which is what the Sabbath is about, resting in God will be restored for God's people back in His presence for all eternity. Isa 66:22-23 Sin separated man from God so now instead of worshipping Him in His presence we worship Him through His Spirit on His holy Sabbath day, and He sanctifies and blesses us. Eze 20:13 Isa 58:13-14

We can see the commandment not to kill given several times before Exodus 20. We don’t see the commandment for the sabbath before Exodus 16.

Ok, so you think Adam and Eve rebelled from God, right after He just created them and instead of spending the Sabbath with God that was made for them (and us), they did their own thing. Got it. I think you are mistaking His children today with His first children. They didn't rebel from God until later, over something they ate that they shouldn't have, as well as breaking a slew of other commandments.

They wouldn’t be rebelling against God if the commandment hadn’t been given.

 

[Gary K]

Where does God say we’re to worship Him on the Sabbath? The words “holy convocation” doesn’t mean worship it means an assembly.

A holy assembly isn't a worship assembly? What else would you call a holy assembly other than worship?

 

[Gary K]

We can see the commandment not to kill given several times before Exodus 20. We don’t see the commandment for the sabbath before Exodus 16.



They wouldn’t be rebelling against God if the commandment hadn’t been given.

That's a strange point of view the way I read you. God is responsible for sin because He gave Adam and Eve a command? You're applying our sinful nature to Adam and Eve before they sinned.

 

[SabbathBlessings]

We can see the commandment not to kill given several times before Exodus 20. We don’t see the commandment for the sabbath before Exodus 16.

There is no commandment given that is shown when Cain killed Abel, just that is was sin. No law, no sin, so God’s law was obviously given. Rom 4:15

They wouldn’t be rebelling against God if the commandment hadn’t been given.

You can go down that path and think this, but scripture tells us no law no transgression, since transgression started in heaven 1 John 3:8, we know God’s law did too. The law that shows us our sin is the Ten Commandments Romans 7:7 the commandments God wrote and God spoke and did not leave up to man to write and is also revealed in Heaven Rev 11:19 which the earthy temple was modeled after Heb 8:1-5

Wouldn’t it be sad if God really does want us to keep all of the Ten Commandments but we are deceived as warned Rev 12:9 Dan 7:25 and instead of listening to God, who personally spoke and personally wrote and we are to live by every Word Mat 4:4 said Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy, that He said was at Creation Exo 20:11 made for mankind Mark 2:27 but we instead follow the majority that says the opposite of what God said and instead of remembering we forget. God just wants to spend time with His children so He can bless and sanctify us Eze 20:12 Isa 58:13-14 yet so many object to this is truly baffling.

 

[Bob S]

What I am going to respond to here is your assertion that Isaiah 66 can't be trusted.

I have a major issue with this as Paul tells us all scripture is given by inspiration of God as is profitable for doctrine, reproof, and instruction in righteousness, What I see you doing is picking and choosing what scripture you will believe and what you will reject. It seems you don't have a wide enough grasp of Biblical concepts as Revelation gives us the explanation for understanding Isaiah's comments are figurative.

If Isaiah's comments are" figurative" then wouldn't IS 66:23 also be figurative? I think you are digging a hole you cannot get out. You can deny any scripture with the figurative comment. Where does it stop? What we do know from reading 2Cor3:6-11 is that Jews are not under the 10 commandments. Gentile nations never have been.

 

[BNR32FAN]

There is no commandment given that is shown when Cain killed Abel, just that is was sin. No law, no sin, so God’s law was obviously given. Rom 4:15

You can go down that path and think this, but scripture tells us no law no transgression, since transgression started in heaven 1 John 3:8, we know God’s law did too. The law that shows us our sin is the Ten Commandments Romans 7:7 the commandments God wrote and God spoke and did not leave up to man to write and is also revealed in Heaven Rev 11:19 which the earthy temple was modeled after Heb 8:1-5

Wouldn’t it be sad if God really does want us to keep all of the Ten Commandments but we are deceived as warned Rev 12:9 Dan 7:25 and instead of listening to God, who personally spoke and personally wrote and we are to live by every Word Mat 4:4 said Remember the Sabbath day to keep it holy, that He said was at Creation Exo 20:11 made for mankind Mark 2:27 but we instead follow the majority that says the opposite of what God said and instead of remembering we forget. God just wants to spend time with His children so He can bless and sanctify us Eze 20:12 Isa 58:13-14 yet so many object to this is truly baffling.

Will you please stop and think about what you’re writing before you post it? You’re pretending that Christians who don’t observe the sabbath have no relationship with Him, that we completely forsake Him when that’s not even close to the truth because we don’t go to church on Sunday to avoid Him. Do you honestly think that Christians go to church on Sunday to rebel against God? That would be among the top 10 most ridiculous ideas I’ve ever heard of. Why would anyone who wants to rebel against God or to avoid Him entirely ever step foot in a church and sing songs of praise & glory to Him then sit and read the scriptures to learn His word? Can’t you see how astronomically outrageous that sounds?