Works Relation to Salvation

Presbyterian Continuist · Apr 25, 2024

Gary K said:
I disagree. My previous posts on another thread I demonstrated this quite clearly, Here is more scripture from the OT demonstrating this.

Ezekiel 36: 25 ¶ Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.
27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

So let's look at the results of the new covenant.

Jeremiah 31: 31 ¶ Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah:
32 Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the Lord:
33 But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people.
34 And they shall teach no more every man his neighbour, and every man his brother, saying, Know the Lord: for they shall all know me, from the least of them unto the greatest of them, saith the Lord: for I will forgive their iniquity, and I will remember their sin no more.

Now let's compare this with John 17: 3 And this is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent.

Jesus said knowing He and His Father results in eternal life. That is an exact parallel to the results of the new covenant. It is also exactly what I said in the other thread about loving God as we don't love people we don't know. In fact, we can't love people we don't know, as love between individuals is a relationship between them. So loving God will not, cannot, result in legalism.

This ties in well with Galatians 5: 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.
22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

Notice that the fruit of the Spirit breaks no law. Therefore the fruit of the Spirit in the heart enables that person to keep the law of God. It does away with the sins of the flesh and enables them to inherit the kingdom of God, just like, as Jesus said, knowing He and His Father results in eternal life.

Messages like this are found throughout scripture. There is perfect agreement between the OT and the NT. Each reinforces the other.

When a believer becomes a new creature in Christ, he is dead with Christ to the Law. He was crucified with Christ, buried with Christ, rose with Christ, and is seated at the right hand of God with Christ. The Mosaic Law cannot apply to someone who is dead to it. The Scripture says: "For through the law I died to the law, so that I might live to God. 20I have been crucified with Christ. It is no longer I who live, but Christ who lives in me. And the life I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave himself for me. 21I do not nullify the grace of God, for if righteousness were through the law, then Christ died for no purpose (Galatians 2:19-21).

The Law only applied to those who were subject to it before Christ had ascended to the right hand of God and who had sent the Holy Spirit to transform the disciples and made them into totally new creatures in Him. Therefore those who insist on keeping the Law show that they have come short of being new creatures in Christ, even though they may wear the Christian badge and are very religious. If they are depending on righteousness through keeping the Law, they cannot have righteousness through Christ, because the latter is bestowed only on those who have been genuinely converted to Christ and are part of the new creation in Christ.

Bob S · Apr 25, 2024

Gary K said:
You don't appear to understand SDA beliefs in the least.

Romans 2: 25 For circumcision verily profiteth, if thou keep the law: but if thou be a breaker of the law, thy circumcision is made uncircumcision.
26 Therefore if the uncircumcision keep the righteousness of the law, shall not his uncircumcision be counted for circumcision?
27 And shall not uncircumcision which is by nature, if it fulfil the law, judge thee, who by the letter and circumcision dost transgress the law?
28 For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:
29 But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

Colossians 3: 9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;
10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:
11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.
12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;
13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.
14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

Colossians 2: 8 Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.
9 For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily.
10 And ye are complete in him, which is the head of all principality and power:
11 In whom also ye are circumcised with the circumcision made without hands, in putting off the body of the sins of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ:
12 Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead.
13 And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses;
14 Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross;

Notice the last verse. You can't nail stone to wood.

Why then did Paul refer to the ten commandments as the "ministry of death"'?

sparow · Apr 25, 2024

BNR32FAN said:
Amen we are no longer under the Mosaic law we are under the law of the Spirit.

To me this is a confusing statement; by Mosaic Law do you mean the Law of the Great God who never changes, the Law (and the prophets) that Jesus said no change could be made to, do you mean the Law that is intrinsic to covenant of salvation, the covenant where God provides the King, the kingdom and salvation for those who enter into the covenant and then keep the commandments.

A difference for them of the OT, they looked forward to when the covenant would be confirmed, we look back to see Christ confirming the covenant, which is still a work in progress, with still more confirming to do.

What God expected of Israel of old God still requires of Israel of new, that is to ENTER IN to the covenant not abrogate it.

Presbyterian Continuist · Apr 25, 2024

Bob S said:
Why then did Paul refer to the ten commandments as the "ministry of death"'?

Exactly. Paul said, "The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and death." We are set free from the obligation to keep the Law in any form.

Gary K · Apr 25, 2024

Bob S said:
Why then did Paul refer to the ten commandments as the "ministry of death"'?

Both Romans 2 and Colossians 2 and 3 demonstrate your reading cannot be correct.

Therefore there has to be another reading of 2Corinthians 3 that goes along with both. As far as I'm concerned the first 3 verses set the context for the entire chapter as they say the law is now written in the heart rather than on tables of stone. That is the result of the NC so that we now know God.

HIM · Apr 26, 2024

Presbyterian Continuist said:
Exactly. Paul said, "The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set us free from the law of sin and death." We are set free from the obligation to keep the Law in any form.

You are seriously misunderstanding Romans 7 and 8. What you are sharing is not true.

BNR32FAN · Apr 26, 2024

Bob S said:
I would like to submit that WE, Gentiles, were never under the Law. At Pentecost the Holy Sprit was poured out to all mankind, It was the promise of Jesus to be with us always. He has sent the Comforter to do just that. 2Cor3:6-12 tells Jews that they are not under the guidance of the Law because the guidance of the Holy Spirit is much greater.

There were some Gentiles who were saved under the Law, Rahab would be one example.

Bob S · Apr 26, 2024

BNR32FAN said:
There were some Gentiles who were saved under the Law, Rahab would be one example.

Again, the Law could not save anyone. Rahab was a gentile without the Law. Rehab was saved just like Abraham and anyone else that believed and served God with all their hearts. SDAs are told never to say they are saved. They believe their salvation hinges on how well they perform, mainly keeping Sabbath according to their teachings which comes from their prophet.

Aviel · Apr 26, 2024

Icyspark said:
It's amazing how many of the critics of Adventism have attempted to redact all of the commands of Jesus down to two commands which

If Commandments or keeping them... hung on the Cross and died for your sin, then just keep trusting in them to get you into heaven.

if they didnt, then .................

Studyman · Apr 26, 2024

Bob S said:
I would like to submit that WE, Gentiles, were never under the Law.

It is enshrined in God's Law that a Gentile who partakes of the Passover, and adopts God's covenant, is to be considered "As one that is homeborn". Or as it is written, "There is no Jew or Greek in the Word of God which became Flesh, AKA "Christ".

Lev. 19: 33 And if a stranger sojourn with thee in your land, ye shall not vex him. 34 But the stranger that dwelleth with you shall be unto you as one born among you, and thou shalt love him as thyself; for ye were strangers in the land of Egypt: I am the LORD your God.

So your religious philosophy that Gentiles were never under God's instructions, is simply Biblically untrue.

Bob S said:
At Pentecost the Holy Sprit was poured out to all mankind, It was the promise of Jesus to be with us always.

I'm not sure the Scriptures support this preaching that the Pharisees, Greek god worshipping Romans, were all given the Holy Spirit when the first Church of God under His Prophesied New Priest were gathered together on His Holy Feast, "Pentecost". Having counted the days correctly from the Last Day of Unleavened Bread, in obedience to God and the Feasts of the Lord?

Where is your evidence that God's Holy spirit was poured out on those who "Transgress God's Commandments"? Can you provide something from scriptures which make Peter's words below, void?

Acts 5: 32 And we are his witnesses of these things; and so is also the Holy Ghost, whom God hath given to them that obey him.

Why were they gathered on Pentecost? Is it not because the Jesus "of the Bible" instructed them to "Keep the commandments"?

Bob S said:
He has sent the Comforter to do just that. 2Cor3:6-12 tells Jews that they are not under the guidance of the Law because the guidance of the Holy Spirit is much greater.

What Spirit "Ordained Good works beforehand, that His People should walk in them"? What Spirit sent the Light" of the World, the Jesus of the bible? If I walk in the Commandments and Judgments of God, am I not walking in the Spirit? Did Abraham not "Walk in the Spirit"? And Zacharias and Simeon?

Luke 1: 5 There was in the days of Herod, the king of Judaea, a certain priest named Zacharias, of the course of Abia: and his wife was of the daughters of Aaron, and her name was Elisabeth. 6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.

67 And his father Zacharias "was filled with the Holy Ghost", and prophesied, saying, 68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people, 69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of his servant David; 70 As he spake by the mouth of his holy prophets, which have been since the world began:

Would this be a different Spirit than was given on Pentecost? Was the Spirit God gave to them on Pentecost, not the Same "Helper" Jesus Promised, which God gave to Zacharias and Simeon?

These are prudent questions, relevant to the discussion.

Gary K · Apr 26, 2024

Bob S said:
Again, the Law could not save anyone. Rahab was a gentile without the Law. Rehab was saved just like Abraham and anyone else that believed and served God with all their hearts. SDAs are told never to say they are saved. They believe their salvation hinges on how well they perform, mainly keeping Sabbath according to their teachings which comes from their prophet.

As an SDA I have a very real assurance of salvation. I know my heavenly Father and His Son and that is eternal life. I don't believe you can have that kind of assurance as Jesus is our Creator and you're an evolutionist so you don't believe you you were created.

SabbathBlessings · Apr 26, 2024

BNR32FAN said:
There were some Gentiles who were saved under the Law, Rahab would be one example.

No one is saved by the law. We are only saved by grace through faith. In the OT it was faith in Jesus pointing forward to the Cross and now its faith in Jesus pointing back to the Cross. It's the only way anyone is saved. Eph 2:8

Rahab was saved by faith

Heb 11:31 By faith the harlot Rahab did not perish with those who did not believe, when she had received the spies with peace.

Faith is not passive James 1:22 Rom 3:31 and this is how the faithful live all throughout scripture

Revelation 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints; here are those who keep the commandments of God and the faith of Jesus.

Compared to the lost

Romans 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God; for it is not subject to the law of God, nor indeed can be. 8 So then, those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

If we have faith in Jesus we would have faith in everything He taught and did, all for our example to follow 1 John 2:6 which reconciles us Rev 22:14

Gary K · Apr 26, 2024

Aviel said:
If Commandments or keeping them... hung on the Cross and died for your sin, then just keep trusting in them to get you into heaven.

if they didnt, then .................

So you think stone can be nailed to a cross? Jesus is the truth.

Galatians 5: 19 Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,
20 Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies,
21 Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Love for God is the determining factor in being saved or lost for we cannot love someone we don't know.

Matthew 7: 24 ¶ Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:
25 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock.
26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:
27 And the rain descended, and the floods came, and the winds blew, and beat upon that house; and it fell: and great was the fall of it.

Jesus gave the 10 commandments from Sinai therefore the 10 commandments are His sayings. I have built my house upon the Rock and when bad times come my house will last.

Revelation 12: 17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Aviel · Apr 26, 2024

Gary K said:
So you think stone can be nailed to a cross? Jesus is the truth.

I think that you have a better chance of nailing a rock to a tree then you will ever have trying to go to Heaven by trying to keep commandments.

See, God requires that we become His Righteousness, and Commandments can't do that for you.

See, if law and commandment keeping could save you, could forgive sin, or could get you into Heaven, then Jesus didnt need to be tortured and die for you on The Cross.

Do you understand?

Gary K · Apr 26, 2024

Aviel said:
I think that you have a better chance of nailing a rock to a tree then you will ever have trying to go to Heaven by trying to keep commandments.

See, God requires that we become His Righteousness, and Commandments can't do that for you.

See, if law and commandment keeping could save you, could forgive sin, or could get you into Heaven, then Jesus didnt need to be tortured and die for you on The Cross.

Do you understand?

Nope.

Romans 3: 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Galatians 5: 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

The fruit of the Spirit in our lives violates no law. This includes the 10 commandments.

Why would anyone think God is a cruel taskmaster and requires that which is impossible?

Matthew 5: 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Aviel · Apr 26, 2024

Gary K said:
Nope.

Romans 3: 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.
29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also:
30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith.
31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

Galatians 5: 22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,
23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

The fruit of the Spirit in our lives violates no law. This includes the 10 commandments.

Why would anyone think God is a cruel taskmaster and requires that which is impossible?

Matthew 5: 46 For if ye love them which love you, what reward have ye? do not even the publicans the same?
47 And if ye salute your brethren only, what do ye more than others? do not even the publicans so?
48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

"Christ has redeemed (the born again) from the Curse of the Law".

"The law is the power of sin" "The power of sin is the Law".

"Christ is the end of the Law, for Righteousness, to everyone who Believes".

And once you do believe, then "you are not under the Law, but under Grace".

And "where there is no LAW, there is no Transgression".

Gary K · Apr 26, 2024

Aviel said:
"Christ has redeemed (the born again) from the Curse of the Law".

"The law is the power of sin" "The power of sin is the Law".

"Christ is the end of the Law, for Righteousness, to everyone who Believes".

And once you do believe, then "you are not under the Law, but under Grace".

And "where there is no LAW, there is no Transgression".

So as far as you're concerned God argues with Himself as He is the author of all scripture.

Aviel · Apr 26, 2024

Gary K said:
So as far as you're concerned God argues with Himself as He is the author of all scripture.

Those are your words, and they have nothing to do with my Post.

You seem to not understand that God's Grace is not Moses's Law or Commandments.

Like this..

"""""""""The Law came by Moses....but GRACE and TRUTH.""""...and the NEW COVENANT... ALL Came by JESUS.

Gary K · Apr 26, 2024

Aviel said:
Those are your words, and they have nothing to do with my Post.

You seem to not understand that God's Grace is not Moses's Law or Commandments.

Like this..

"""""""""The Law came by Moses....but GRACE and TRUTH.""""...and the NEW COVENANT... ALL Came by JESUS.

Sorry, you're wrong again. Jesus is the one that told us to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect.

Aviel · Apr 26, 2024

Gary K said:
Sorry, you're wrong again. Jesus is the one that told us to be perfect as our Father in heaven is perfect.

And you can't do that by self effort.

You have to become that one., as "born again" "In Christ"... "ONE with God".

That is how you become PERFECT, like the "Father".

Works Relation to Salvation

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