LDS Wondering About the Godhead and the Trinity

[Kiwi Christian]

It is always important to get under the surface of what Mormons claim when they say there is the same belief on something. For example, some Mormons may claim that they are in agreement with orthodox Christians on the belief that the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost are eternal. However, there is disagreement on what that actually means. Mormons claim that we are all eternal by virtue of having an eternal, uncreated "intelligence" at our core. It is that "intelligence", which is uncreated, that allows the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost to be termed "eternal", however it is also that "intelligence" that allows all of us to be considered eternal.

In relation to Jesus, it is important to understand that the Mormon teaching is that Jesus (known as Jehovah in the pre-mortal existence) is the literal firstborn spirit son of God the Father, and His spouse, Heavenly Mother. The Mormon church teaches that we are all literal spirit children of "heavenly parents", and that Jesus the literal firstborn of our heavenly parents.

This is why it is important to understand Mormon views on these words, as often, when you go under the surface, the stated similarity or equivalence isn't actually there.

Yes, just believing in someone named "Jesus" means nothing unless we are talking about the Jesus Christ of the Bible. The one, eternal, everlasting, uncreated God. The one who created ALL things. It is like if you know someone called "bob" and i know another person called "bob". Now, can we have a conversation about "bob" without defining WHO we are talking about? No.

I think it is very loving to nail down mormon teachings. They use Christian terms but redefine them out of existence.

notice how the mormon girl did not address one single quote from her leaders that i presented?

 

[Jane_Doe]

"Please, my friend, address these quotes."

"I did: "

No, you didnt.

I will spell this out for you--

“I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages

I specifically addressed this: members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Anthansian Christians both believe: The Father is not the Son, nor vice verse. Neither of them are the Spirit. They are 3 different persons.

If you belief the Trinity, you agree with this.

and THREE Gods.”. joseph smith

And are ONE through unity. Not from a shared substance as the Trinity teaches.

Same with rest of these quotes.

Address these two quotes and tell me they do not make your religion polytheistic, please.

No more than the Trinity makes you a polytheist. We both believe in three different divine personages whom are ONE.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Yes, just believing in someone named "Jesus" means nothing unless we are talking about the Jesus Christ of the Bible.

Where in the Bible may I read about how the three different divine persons (Father, Son, and Spirit) are one via a shared ousia? (Aka the central point of the Trinity theology).

I have read the Bible many times- I love and study that scared book- but there is no mention of shared ousia in there. Therefore, I reject that notion.

 

[Kiwi Christian]

I will spell this out for you--

I specifically addressed this: members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Anthansian Christians both believe: The Father is not the Son, nor vice verse. Neither of them are the Spirit. They are 3 different persons.

If you belief the Trinity, you agree with this.

And are ONE through unity. Not from a shared substance as the Trinity teaches.

Same with rest of these quotes.

No more than the Trinity makes you a polytheist. We both believe in three different divine personages whom are ONE.

Now you are just plain being deceptive. I hope you do not have a temple recommend.

Why did you misquote me? Why did you not quote the full quote? I await your apology.

You quoted me as saying "“I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages"

When in actual fact what i quoted was “I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods.”. joseph smith"

Why did you leave the last part off?

"I specifically addressed this: members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Anthansian Christians both believe: The Father is not the Son, nor vice verse. Neither of them are the Spirit. They are 3 different persons."

yes, they are three personages but only ONE GOD. Mormonism says they are THREE SEPERATE GODS.

Bruce McConkie states: "Three separate personages---Father, Son, and Holy Ghost---comprise the Godhead…As each of these persons is a God, it is evident from this standpoint alone, that a plurality of Gods exists. To us…these three are the only Gods we worship" (Mormon Doctrine, p.576-7).

"And are ONE through unity. "

The Bible does not say that. The Bible says there is ONE God.

DEUTERONOMY 6:4, DEUTERONOMY 4:35,39, DEUTERONOMY 32:39, 2 SAMUEL 7:22, 1 KINGS 8:60, 2 KINGS 5:15 , 2 KINGS 19:15, NEHEMIAH 9:6, PSALM 18:31 ( Which also states Jesus is God ), PSALM 86:1, ISAIAH 37:16,20, ISAIAH 43:10,11, ISAIAH 44:6,8, ISAIAH 45:21, ISAIAH 46:9, HOSEA 13:4, MARK 12:29-34, ROMANS 3:30, 1 CORINTHIANS 8:4-6, 1 TIMOTHY 2:5.


yet joe said:

Joseph Smith: " I will preach on the plurality of Gods. I have selected this text for that express purpose. I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods. It has been preached by the Elders for fifteen years."

Joseph Smith: "The head God organized the heavens and the earth. I defy all the world to refute me. In the beginning the heads of the Gods organized the heavens and the earth."

 

[NYCGuy]

It is also important to note that not all Mormons agree on whether Mormonism is polytheistic or monotheistic. Indeed, we recently had a thread here where one Mormon rejected polytheism while another Mormon was proud to be considered a polytheist.

What is apparent is that Mormon leaders, church documents, and scriptures make reference to "the Gods". Joseph Smith and others have taught that there are "three Gods". There is reference to the "plurality of Gods". Etc etc. So, while sure, they may claim that there is "one God", they also, at the same time, claim that there are "three Gods". Orthodox Christians of course would never claim such a thing.

 

[Kiwi Christian]

Where in the Bible may I read about how the three different divine persons (Father, Son, and Spirit) are one via a shared ousia? (Aka the central point of the Trinity theology).

I have read the Bible many times- I love and study that scared book- but there is no mention of shared ousia in there. Therefore, I reject that notion.

Thats fine. I reject the mormon teaching that there are many Gods and Goddesses and you can become one and that God the father was not always God the father but was once just a man who had to earn His way to become one God among MANY Gods. I reject the notion that i must learn secret handshakes and passwords and wear special undies in order to live with God the father when i die.

The Bible clearly says that there is a being called God the father and that He has ALWAYS been God the father ( mormonism says NO ).

The Bible clearly says that there is a being called God the son and HE is and always has been God ( mormonism says NO )

The Bible clearly says that there is a being called the Holy Spirit and HE is and always has been God ( mormonism says NO )

The Bible clearly says there is ONE God.

Therefore, somehow, these three beings constitute ONE God.

We are not told HOW. That is not important.

I had four mormons in my living room and i was explaining this and i said "If we could understand HOW God WAS God, we would BE God".

Their reply? "we hope to be one day"

Sorry, guys. the job has been taken and you arent qualified anyhow, and neither am i.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Why did you misquote me? Why did you not quote the full quote?

I did. Originally addressed in group in post 76, and again piece-by-piece in post 86. I addressed the entiry of the quote both times.

Why did you leave the last part off?

I did not. I addressed the first part first, and then the second part immediately following it. It's all there and thoroughly addressed.

yes, they are three personages but only ONE GOD. Mormonism says they are THREE SEPERATE GODS.

Whom are ONE through unity.

 

[Kiwi Christian]

If we should take a million of worlds like this and number their particles, we should find that there are more Gods than there are particles of matter in those worlds... One world has a personal God or Father, and the inhabitants thereof worship the attributes of that God, another world has another, and they worship His attributes... Orson Pratt - Mormon apostle Journal of Discourses 2:345

How many Gods there are, I do not know. But there never was a time when there were not Gods and worlds, and when men were not passing through the same ordeals that we are now passing through. Brigham Young - Mormon prophet Journal of Discourses 7:333

"But if God the Father was not always God, but came to his present exalted position by degrees of progress as indicated in the teachings of the prophet, how has there been a God from all eternity? The answer is that there has been and there now exists an endless line of Gods, stretching back into the eternities, that had no beginning and will have no end. Their existence runs parallel with endless duration, and their dominions are as limitless as boundless space." - B. H. Roberts - Mormon apostle and LDS church historian. A New Witnesses for God 1:476


Joseph Smith: " I will preach on the plurality of Gods. I have selected this text for that express purpose. I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods. It has been preached by the Elders for fifteen years."

Joseph Smith: "The head God organized the heavens and the earth. I defy all the world to refute me. In the beginning the heads of the Gods organized the heavens and the earth."

“We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did, and I will show it from the Bible,” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-346. )

"Hence, the doctrine of a plurality of Gods is as prominent in the Bible as any other doctrine. It is all over the face of the Bible . . . Paul says there are Gods many and Lords many . . . but to us there is but one God--that is pertaining to us; and he is in all and through all," (History of the Church, vol. 6, p. 474). "In the beginning, the head of the Gods called a council of the Gods; and they came together and concocted a plan to create the world and people it," (Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p. 5).

"I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods," (Teachings of Prophet Joseph Smith, p. 370).


He is our Father-the Father of our spirits, and was once a man in mortal flesh as we are, and is now an exalted Being. How many Gods there are, I do not know. But there never was a time when there were not Gods and worlds, and when men were not passing through the same ordeals that we are now passing through. Brigham Young - Mormon prophet. Journal of Discourses 7:333

God is a natural man... Where did he get his knowledge from? From his Father, just as we get knowledge from our earthly parents.Heber C. Kimball - First Presidency Counselor. Journal of Discourses 8:211

But if God the Father was not always God, but came to his present exalted position by degrees of progress as indicated in the teachings of the prophet, how has there been a God from all eternity? The answer is that there has been and there now exists an endless line of , stretching back into the eternities. B. H. Roberts - Mormon Seventy and LDS church historian. New Witness for God 1:476

Mormon prophets have continuously taught the sublime truth that God the Eternal Father was once a mortal man who passed through a school of earth life similar to that through which we are now passing. He became God-an exalted being.

Yet, if we accept the great law of eternal progression, we must accept the fact that there was a time when Deity was much less powerful than He is today.

Thus He grew in experience and continued to grow until He attained the status of Godhood.

Milton R. Hunter - Mormon Seventy

The Gospel Throughout The Ages, p.104,114-15


President Spencer W. Kimball [Mormon prophet in the mid 1970's] said in a general priesthood meeting: “Brethren, 225,000 of you are here tonight. I suppose 225,000 of you may become gods. There seems to be plenty of space out there in the universe. And the Lord has proved that he knows how to do it. I think he could make, or probably have us help make, worlds for all of us, for every one of us 225,000.". https://www.lds.org/general-confere...-privilege-of-holding-the-priesthood?lang=eng

The LDS scriptures declare that the ultimate goal of a Mormon is to become a god and procreate for all eternity.The Doctrine & Covenants states: 19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, ...Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; ...and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, ...and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

"Then will they become Gods...they will never cease to increase and to multiply, worlds without end. When they receive their crowns, their dominions, they then will be prepared to frame earths like unto ours and to people them in the same manner as we have been brought forth by our parents, by our Father and God” Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 17:143


""After men have got their exaltations and their crowns -- have become Gods, even the sons of God -- are made Kings of kings and Lords of lords, they have the power then of propagating their species in spirit; and that is the first of their operations with regard to organizing a world. **Power is then given to them to organize the elements, and then commence the organization of tabernacles**. How can they do it? Have they to go to that earth? Yes, an Adam will have to go there, and he cannot do without Eve; he must have Eve to commence the work of generation, and they will go into the garden, and continue to eat and drink of the fruits of the corporeal world, until this grosser matter is diffused sufficiently through their celestial bodies to enable them, according to the established laws, to produce mortal tabernacles for their spiritual children."" - Journal of Discourses Volume 6 page 275 --Brigham Young

 

[Kiwi Christian]

Bruce McConkie (LDS apostle) states: "Christ was begotten by an Immortal Father in the same way that mortal men are begotten by mortal fathers" (Mormon Doctrine, p. 547, 1979).

Brigham Young taught: "The birth of the Savior was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood---was begotten of his Father as we were of our fathers" (Journal of Discourses vol.8, p.115); and "when the Virgin Mary conceived the child Jesus, the Father had begotten him in his own likeness [flesh and blood]. He was not begotten by the Holy Ghost" (Journal of Discourses, vol.1, p.50).

"The fleshly body of Jesus required a Mother as well as a Father. Therefore,
the Father and Mother of Jesus, according to the flesh, must have been
associated in the capacity of husband and wife; hence the Virgin Mary must have been, for the time being, the lawful wife of God the Father: we use the term
lawful wife, because it would be blasphemous in the highest degree to say that
He overshadowed her or begat the Savior unlawfully.. He had a lawful right
to overshadow the Virgin Mary IN THE CAPACITY OF A HUSBAND, and beget a
Son. Whether God the Father gave Mary to Joseph for time only, or for time
and eternity, we are not informed. It may be that He only gave her to be the
wife of Joseph while in this mortal state, and that He intended after the resurrection to again take her as one of his own wives to raise up immortal spirits in eternity." Apostle Orson Pratt, "The Seer," Oct. 1853, p. 158).


Brigham Young insisted: "I will say that I was naturally begotten; so was my father, and also my Savior Jesus Christ...he is the first begotten of his father in the flesh, and there was nothing unnatural about it" (Journal of Discourses vol.8, p.211); "Now remember from this time forth, and for ever, that Jesus Christ was NOT begotten by the Holy Ghost" (Journal of Discourses, vol.1, p.51).

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense. The body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was sired by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father. Jesus was not the son of Joseph, nor was He begotten by the Holy Ghost" (The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, pg.7).

"[Jesus Christ] was willing to make payment because of his great love for mankind, and he was able to make payment because he lived a sinless life and because he was actually, literally, biologically the Son of God in the flesh" (Messages for Exaltation, pp.378-379).

"God, the Father of our spirits, became the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ according to the flesh ...The fleshly body of Jesus required a Mother as well as a Father. Therefore, the Father and Mother of Jesus, according to the flesh, must have been associated together in the capacity of Husband and Wife; hence the Virgin Mary must have, for the time being, the lawful wife of God the Father ...He had a lawful right to overshadow the Virgin Mary in the capacity of a husband, and beget a Son, although she was espoused to another; for the law which He gave to govern men and women, was not intended to govern Himself, or to prescribe rules for his own conduct" (The Seer, Orson Pratt, pg. 158).

"The birth of the Saviour was as natural as are the births of our children; it was the result of natural action. He partook of flesh and blood - was begotten of his Father, as we were of our fathers" (Journal of Discourses, Brigham Young, 8:115).

Carfred Broderick (Mormon author) writes: "God is a procreating personage of flesh and bone...latter-day prophets have made it clear that despite what it says in Matthew 1:20, the Holy Ghost was not the father of Jesus...The Savior was fathered by a personage of flesh and bone" (Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Autumn, 1967, p.100-101).

 

[Traveling teacher]

I have belonged to 4 different church den....

1 church of Christ...not Mormon
2. Messianic Jewish Christian
3. Non denomination

These 3 did not teach the trinity for various reasons.......

So to say or even imply that all Christians believe trinity is not true......

Many Christians in Africa and Chinese underground church have no idea what the word trinity even means......

 

[Jane_Doe]

Thats fine.

Then you're okay acknowledging that the Trinity is not in the Bible? If you are, ok, let's talk about it.

If you wish to claim that the Trinity is in the Bible and you are here to preach to me the "Biblical Jesus", please tell me the verse I may read about Christ's shared ousia.

We are not told HOW. That is not important.

Then in your opinion the difference between LDS and Trinitarian beliefs (which is the how) is unimportant.

I had four mormons in my living room and i was explaining this and i said "If we could understand HOW God WAS God, we would BE God".

Their reply? "we hope to be one day"

Sorry, guys. the job has been taken and you arent qualified anyhow, and neither am i.

Christ Himself disagrees with you.

• Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father, Matt. 5:48
  we are the offspring of God, Acts 17:29.
• heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ, Rom. 8:17.
• changed into the same image from glory to glory, 2 Cor. 3:18.
• if a son, then an heir of God through Christ, Gal. 4:7.
• Till we all come … unto a perfect man, Eph. 4:13.
  when he shall appear, we shall be like him, 1 Jn. 3:2.
  him that overcometh will … sit with me in my throne, Rev. 3:21.
  
  Kiwi Christian do you not believe these verses? Do you not believe that Christ's atonement has the power to wash away your sins and flaws completely?
  

 

[Kiwi Christian]

Then you're okay acknowledging that the Trinity is not in the Bible? If you are, ok, let's talk about it.

Nope. I didnt say that. Stop being deceitful and putting words in my mouth.

If you wish to claim that the Trinity is in the Bible and you are here to preach to me the "Biblical Jesus", please tell me the verse I may read about Christ's shared ousia.

Then in your opinion the difference between LDS and Trinitarian beliefs (which is the how) is unimportant.

Nope, i did not say that. mormonism does NOT believe in the trinity. three SEPERATE GODS is NOT the trinity.


Christ Himself disagrees with you.

• Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father, Matt. 5:48
  we are the offspring of God, Acts 17:29.

We are His creation, yes. But physically, sexually procreated? nope.

• heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ, Rom. 8:17.

Yes, but not GODS.

• changed into the same image from glory to glory, 2 Cor. 3:18.

Your point?

• if a son, then an heir of God through Christ, Gal. 4:7.

Your point?

• Till we all come … unto a perfect man, Eph. 4:13.
  when he shall appear, we shall be like him, 1 Jn. 3:2.

LIKE Him, yes. I never denied it. Mormonism teaches that you can BECOME a God of your planet. Come on, lets stop playing around. Be honest about your religion.

• him that overcometh will … sit with me in my throne, Rev. 3:21.
  
  Kiwi Christian do you not believe these verses? Do you not believe that Christ's atonement has the power to wash away your sins and flaws completely?

Of course i do. I do not believe your personal interpretation of those verses that do not say what you say they say.

My sins ARE washed away. present tense. Doesnt make me a God of my own planet.

Now, unless you can be intelectually honest and stop being deceitful, i will have nothing more to do with you.

You still have not answered my question. Please do so.

Has God the father always been God the father?

 

[Radrook]

These scriptures are curious:

During his Ministry:

Mark 10:18
New International Version
"Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone.

Immediately after after his resurrection:

John 20:17
New International Versio
Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"

And even after his glorification to heaven itself:

Revelation 3:12 ►
New International Version
The one who is victorious I will make a pillar in the temple of my God. Never again will they leave it. I will write on them the name of my God and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which is coming down out of heaven from my God; and I will also write on them my new name.

His disciples:

Corinthians 8:6 ►
New International Version
yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live.

 

[Kiwi Christian]

"Mark 10:18 New International Version "Why do you call me good?" Jesus answered. "No one is good--except God alone."

Why are you using the terrible NIV? It is a very bad perversion and mistranslation.

The pharisees were calling or implying Jesus was good, Jesus was saying that they only believe God is good, so are you calling me God? Simple.

 

[Kiwi Christian]

Did Jesus really say He was God?

That’s exactly how Jesus’ original audience seemed to take it when He said, “I and the Father are one.” In fact, the Jews were ready to kill Him right there! Why? “Because you,” they said, “a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33).

On another occasion, He used the personal name of Israel’s God–the name revealed to Moses (Exodus 3:14)–to refer to Himself. And He even used the Torah for context, so no one would misunderstand Him: “Before Abraham was, I AM” (John 8:58). This would be about wild as telling a Muslim, “I am your God, Allah.” Don’t try that in Saudi Arabia! It’s no wonder the Jews tried to stone Him to death. That was the exact penalty for blasphemy under the Jewish legal system. It was pretty clear to everyone there that He was saying, “I am Israel’s God.”


Why Jesus is God? The Apostle Thomas called Jesus God.John 20:27-29: 2. The Apostle Peter called Jesus God.2 Peter 1:1: 3.The Apostle John called Jesus God.John 1:1-3, 4.God the Father called Jesus God.Hebrews 1:8: 5. God the Father called Jesus God. 6.Isaiah the Prophet said the Messiah would be God.Isaiah 9:67. The Jews who crucified Jesus understood Him to be saying that He was equal with God.John 5:18: 8.Jesus called Himself "I AM", the Old Testament name for God (Exodus 3:14).John 8:58-59. 9.Jesus calls Himself "the Alpha and Omega," the title of Almighty God.Revelation 22:12-13. 10. Like God (Gen. 1:1) Jesus created.Colossians 1:16-1711. Like God, Jesus forgives sin.Mark 2:5-7, 10-11:12. Like God, Jesus gives eternal life.John 10:27-28: 13. Like God, Jesus received, receives and will receive worship.Matthew 14:32-33. 14. Jesus said that only God was good; and Jesus was good. John 10:11: "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep."John 10:11: "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep."Jesus was as good as they come. He was "sinless," "holy," "righteous," "innocent," "undefiled," and "separate from sinners." (Hebrews 7:26) That's pretty good! 15. Like God, Jesus can be present in more than one place at the same time.Matthew 18:20: 16. One of Jesus' titles is "God with us."Matthew 1:23. 17. Jesus' blood is called God's blood.Acts 20:28: 18. Jesus has the same nature as God.Hebrews 1:3a: 19. Jesus spoke as God.Jesus did not speak as one of God's prophets: "thus says the Lord," but as God: "I say to you."Matthew 5:27-29. 20. Like God (Psalm 136:3), Jesus is called the Lord of Lords and King of kings.Revelation 17:14. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. ( WHEN WAS GOD PIERCED? ). And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel (means God Among Us).



John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

John 1:14, "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

John 8:58 "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." Crossreference with Exodus 3:14 "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."

John 10:33 "The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."

John 20:28 "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God."

Collossians 2:9 "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: "

Matthew 4:10 "Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." Crossreference with Matthew 2:2, Matthew 2:11, Matthew 28:9.

Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." Crossreference with Revelation 1:17 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he." and Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

 

[Jane_Doe]

Nope. I didnt say that. Stop being deceitful and putting words in my mouth.

1) Calling another poster "deceitful" is flaming and directly against forum rules. Please cease this behavior.
2) I did not put any words in your mouth, I asked you a question. You did not answer it. So I'll ask again: If you wish to claim that the Trinity is in the Bible and you are here to preach to me the "Biblical Jesus", please tell me the verse I may read about Christ's shared ousia.

Nope, i did not say that. mormonism does NOT believe in the trinity. three SEPERATE GODS is NOT the trinity.

You are correct in that LDS do not believe in the Trinity because we do not believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are one via a shared ousia. But you just claimed that how was not important, therefore the difference between the two view points is not of importance.


(Making these responses clustered for brevity)

--You did not respond to "Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father, Matt. 5:48"

-- You also did not respond to "him that overcometh will … sit with me in my throne, Rev. 3:21."

-- The following are not actual LDS beliefs. If you're interested in listening correcting your knowledge of actual LDS beliefs, I'll discuss them more in detail. If you respond by spamming a bunch of non-doctrinal statements out of context, I'll save us both the time and not respond.

We are His creation, yes. But physically, sexually procreated? nope...

Yes, but not GODS.

And what, in your view, shall be the difference? Stains from sin? Lack of perfection?

• changed into the same image from glory to glory, 2 Cor. 3:18.

Your point?

Your image- your glory- will be the same as His.

• if a son, then an heir of God through Christ, Gal. 4:7.

Your point?

You will be a joint heir with Christ. The same as Him. Joint.

• Till we all come … unto a perfect man, Eph. 4:13.
  when he shall appear, we shall be like him, 1 Jn. 3:2.

LIKE Him, yes. I never denied it.

Good, then we are in agreement, because that's also what LDS are saying.

Mormonism teaches that you can BECOME a God of your planet.

That is incorrect. This misconception was specifically addressed in the first source I linked in this conversation. Did you not read it? Here it is again: Becoming Like God

• Kiwi Christian do you not believe these verses? Do you not believe that Christ's atonement has the power to wash away your sins and flaws completely?

Of course i do. I do not believe your personal interpretation of those verses that do not say what you say they say.

Then, in your personal interpretation, what do they say? What shall be the difference between you that is a joint heir with Christ, perfect, changed to His glory, sharing His throne, etc?

Has God the father always been God the father?

You question here stems from 2 non-scriptural non-doctrinal speculations that are not discussed in LDS church, have zero claims of being without flaw, nor is any LDS person required to believe them-- in fact you can blatantly disagree with them and be LDS in 100% good standing. If you wish to learn how LDS doctrine is actually determined (which zero of the quotes you have post here qualify-- they are all not doctrine), I recommend this link: Approaching Mormon Doctrine.

 

[Kiwi Christian]

"Mormonism teaches that you can BECOME a God of your planet."

"That is incorrect. This misconception was specifically addressed in the first source I linked in this conversation. Did you not read it? Here it is again: Becoming Like God"

No, it IS correct.

President Spencer W. Kimball [Mormon prophet in the mid 1970's] said in a general priesthood meeting: “Brethren, 225,000 of you are here tonight. I suppose 225,000 of you may become gods. There seems to be plenty of space out there in the universe. And the Lord has proved that he knows how to do it. I think he could make, or probably have us help make, worlds for all of us, for every one of us 225,000.". https://www.lds.org/general-confere...-privilege-of-holding-the-priesthood?lang=eng

The LDS scriptures declare that the ultimate goal of a Mormon is to become a god and procreate for all eternity.The Doctrine & Covenants states: 19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, ...Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; ...and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, ...and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

"Then will they become Gods...they will never cease to increase and to multiply, worlds without end. When they receive their crowns, their dominions, they then will be prepared to frame earths like unto ours and to people them in the same manner as we have been brought forth by our parents, by our Father and God” Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 17:143


""After men have got their exaltations and their crowns -- have become Gods, even the sons of God -- are made Kings of kings and Lords of lords, they have the power then of propagating their species in spirit; and that is the first of their operations with regard to organizing a world. **Power is then given to them to organize the elements, and then commence the organization of tabernacles**. How can they do it? Have they to go to that earth? Yes, an Adam will have to go there, and he cannot do without Eve; he must have Eve to commence the work of generation, and they will go into the garden, and continue to eat and drink of the fruits of the corporeal world, until this grosser matter is diffused sufficiently through their celestial bodies to enable them, according to the established laws, to produce mortal tabernacles for their spiritual children."" - Journal of Discourses Volume 6 page 275 --Brigham Young




20 Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them.

21 Verily, verily, I say unto you, except ye abide my law ye cannot attain to this glory.

22 For strait is the gate, and narrow the way that leadeth unto the exaltation and continuation of the lives, and few there be that find it, because ye receive me not in the world neither do ye know me. (Doctrine and Covenants 132:19-22)


As our Father and God begat us, sons and daughters, so will we rise immortal, males and females, and beget children, and, in our turn, form and create worlds, and send forth our spirit children to inherit those worlds, the same as we were sent here, and thus will the works of God continue, and not only God himself, and His Son Jesus Christ have the power of endless lives, but all of His redeemed offspring."

Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses 14:242

1894:

"...we shall sit upon thrones, governing and controlling our posterity from eternity to eternity, and increasing eternally"

Lorenzo Snow, Millennial Star 56:772, October 5, 1894

1956:

"...A man and his wife when glorified will have spirit children who eventually will go on an earth like this one we are on and pass through the same kind of experiences, being subject to mortal conditions, and if faithful, then they also will receive the fullness of exaltation and partake of the same blessings."

Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 2:48

2001:

"They will receive everything our Father in Heaven has and will become like Him. They will even be able to have spirit children and make new worlds for them to live on, and do all the things our Father in Heaven has done."

Gospel Fundamentals [2001], 201




And, calling you "deceitful" is not "flaming". you ARE being deceitful, speaking half-truths and trying to use Christian terminology that you redefine.

 

[Kiwi Christian]

"Has God the father always been God the father?"

"You question here stems from 2 non-scriptural non-doctrinal speculations that are not discussed in LDS church, have zero claims of being without flaw, nor is any LDS person required to believe them-- in fact you can blatantly disagree with them and be LDS in 100% good standing. If you wish to learn how LDS doctrine is actually determined (which zero of the quotes you have post here qualify-- they are all not doctrine), I recommend this link: Approaching Mormon Doctrine."


So is that a "yes", "no" or a "i dont know"?

Your missionaries say "yes" until i quote joseph smith then they admit "no".

Lets hear from your leaders.

“We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did, and I will show it from the Bible,” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-346. )

But if God the Father was not always God, but came to his present exalted position by degrees of progress as indicated in the teachings of the prophet, how has there been a God from all eternity? The answer is that there has been and there now exists an endless line of , stretching back into the eternities. B. H. Roberts - Mormon Seventy and LDS church historian. New Witness for God 1:476

Mormon prophets have continuously taught the sublime truth that God the Eternal Father was once a mortal man who passed through a school of earth life similar to that through which we are now passing. He became God-an exalted being.

Yet, if we accept the great law of eternal progression, we must accept the fact that there was a time when Deity was much less powerful than He is today.

Thus He grew in experience and continued to grow until He attained the status of Godhood.

Milton R. Hunter - Mormon Seventy

The Gospel Throughout The Ages, p.104,114-15

 

[NYCGuy]

That is incorrect. This misconception was specifically addressed in the first source I linked in this conversation. Did you not read it? Here it is again: Becoming Like God

Approaching Mormon Doctrine.

Is the idea that exalted Mormons will have their own planet really a "caricature", an incorrect misconception? Or was it actually taught in official Mormon church manuals, and taught by Mormon church leaders?

As I quoted in other threads (I can do so again in this thread if necessary), official Mormon church teaching manuals have included statements that in exaltation, Mormons will have spirit children that will have the same relationship to them as we have with Heavenly Father, and that they will create worlds (or will have worlds created for them) for their spirit children.

This comes directly out of official Mormon church publications, and not cartoonish media caricatures or incorrect misconceptions, as one would be led to believe.

 

[Jane_Doe]

"Mormonism teaches that you can BECOME a God of your planet."

"That is incorrect. This misconception was specifically addressed in the first source I linked in this conversation. Did you not read it? Here it is again: Becoming Like God"

No, it IS correct.

DID YOU READ THE LINK PROVIDED? No, you apparently did not.

President Spencer W. Kimball [Mormon prophet in the mid 1970's] said in a general priesthood meeting: “Brethren, 225,000 of you are here tonight. I suppose 225,000 of you may become gods. There seems to be plenty of space out there in the universe. And the Lord has proved that he knows how to do it. I think he could make, or probably have us help make, worlds for all of us, for every one of us 225,000.". https://www.lds.org/general-confere...-privilege-of-holding-the-priesthood?lang=eng
.....
"Then will they become Gods...they will never cease to increase and to multiply, worlds without end. When they receive their crowns, their dominions, they then will be prepared to frame earths like unto ours and to people them in the same manner as we have been brought forth by our parents, by our Father and God” Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 17:143
....
""After men have got their exaltations and their crowns -- have become Gods, even the sons of God -- are made Kings of kings and Lords of lords, they have the power then of propagating their species in spirit; and that is the first of their operations with regard to organizing a world. **Power is then given to them to organize the elements, and then commence the organization of tabernacles**. How can they do it? Have they to go to that earth? Yes, an Adam will have to go there, and he cannot do without Eve; he must have Eve to commence the work of generation, and they will go into the garden, and continue to eat and drink of the fruits of the corporeal world, until this grosser matter is diffused sufficiently through their celestial bodies to enable them, according to the established laws, to produce mortal tabernacles for their spiritual children."" - Journal of Discourses Volume 6 page 275 --Brigham Young
.....
As our Father and God begat us, sons and daughters, so will we rise immortal, males and females, and beget children, and, in our turn, form and create worlds, and send forth our spirit children to inherit those worlds, the same as we were sent here, and thus will the works of God continue, and not only God himself, and His Son Jesus Christ have the power of endless lives, but all of His redeemed offspring."

Orson Pratt, Journal of Discourses 14:242

1894:

"...we shall sit upon thrones, governing and controlling our posterity from eternity to eternity, and increasing eternally"

Lorenzo Snow, Millennial Star 56:772, October 5, 1894

1956:

"...A man and his wife when glorified will have spirit children who eventually will go on an earth like this one we are on and pass through the same kind of experiences, being subject to mortal conditions, and if faithful, then they also will receive the fullness of exaltation and partake of the same blessings."

Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation 2:48

2001:

"They will receive everything our Father in Heaven has and will become like Him. They will even be able to have spirit children and make new worlds for them to live on, and do all the things our Father in Heaven has done."

Gospel Fundamentals [2001], 201

All of these are non-doctrinal speculations, some them them blatantly say so. The newspaper citation does make me chuckle though. Still, humor aside, I would really appreciate if you actually read the "Approaching Mormon Doctrine" link I posted so we can have an intelligent conversation.

The LDS scriptures declare that the ultimate goal of a Mormon is to become a god and procreate for all eternity.The Doctrine & Covenants states: 19 And again, verily I say unto you, if a man marry a wife by my word, which is my law, and by the new and everlasting covenant, ...Ye shall come forth in the first resurrection; ...and shall inherit thrones, kingdoms, principalities, and powers, dominions, ...and they shall pass by the angels, and the gods, which are set there, to their exaltation and glory in all things, as hath been sealed upon their heads, which glory shall be a fulness and a continuation of the seeds forever and ever.

Your statement is not supposed by this quote at all. It also does not address your claims of planets.