LDS Wondering About the Godhead and the Trinity

[Jane_Doe]

"Has God the father always been God the father?"

"You question here stems from 2 non-scriptural non-doctrinal speculations that are not discussed in LDS church, have zero claims of being without flaw, nor is any LDS person required to believe them-- in fact you can blatantly disagree with them and be LDS in 100% good standing. If you wish to learn how LDS doctrine is actually determined (which zero of the quotes you have post here qualify-- they are all not doctrine), I recommend this link: Approaching Mormon Doctrine."


So is that a "yes", "no" or a "i dont know"?

Your missionaries say "yes" until i quote joseph smith then they admit "no".

Lets hear from your leaders.

“We have imagined and supposed that God was God from all eternity. I will refute that idea, and take away the veil, so that you may see. These are incomprehensible ideas to some, but they are simple. It is the first principle of the Gospel to know for a certainty the Character of God, and to know that we may converse with him as one man converses with another, and that he was once a man like us; yea, that God the Father of us all, dwelt on an earth, the same as Jesus Christ himself did, and I will show it from the Bible,” (Teachings of the Prophet Joseph Smith, pp. 345-346. )

But if God the Father was not always God, but came to his present exalted position by degrees of progress as indicated in the teachings of the prophet, how has there been a God from all eternity? The answer is that there has been and there now exists an endless line of , stretching back into the eternities. B. H. Roberts - Mormon Seventy and LDS church historian. New Witness for God 1:476

Mormon prophets have continuously taught the sublime truth that God the Eternal Father was once a mortal man who passed through a school of earth life similar to that through which we are now passing. He became God-an exalted being.

Yet, if we accept the great law of eternal progression, we must accept the fact that there was a time when Deity was much less powerful than He is today.

Thus He grew in experience and continued to grow until He attained the status of Godhood.

Milton R. Hunter - Mormon Seventy

The Gospel Throughout The Ages, p.104,114-15

Once again you're quoting a bunch of non-doctrinal statements and acting like LDS belief all of these are "thus saith the Lord". Frankly that attitude is completely false and shows a great lack of understanding of LDS doctrinal structure. Please actually read the link I posted.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Kiwi Christian--

I am feeling like you're not reading anything I'm posting, but are instead just interested in posting what you think I believe. If you're interested in listening and actually learning LDS beliefs, please indicate thus. If you're not interested in actually listening to me, please indicate thus.

Telling me honestly whether or not you are interested in listening will greatly improve both of our time usage.

 

[spockrates]

Mormons will deliberatly lie right off the bat.

Best to go to their leaders and read what they say.

No, mormonism does NOT teach the trinity.

Mormonism believes in many Gods and goddesses and you can become one.

“I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods.”. joseph smith

"Our father in heaven, according to the Prophet, had a father, and since there has been a condition of this kind through all eternity, each Father had a Father" (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:47).

"The Father is a glorified, perfected, resurrected, exalted man who worked out his salvation by obedience to the same laws he has given to us so that we may do the same" (A New Witness for the Articles of Faith, p. 64). This shows that God the father was once under ANOTHER Gods' law.

Joseph Smith: " I will preach on the plurality of Gods. I have selected this text for that express purpose. I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods. It has been preached by the Elders for fifteen years."

Joseph Smith: "The head God organized the heavens and the earth. I defy all the world to refute me. In the beginning the heads of the Gods organized the heavens and the earth."

He is our Father-the Father of our spirits, and was once a man in mortal flesh as we are, and is now an exalted Being. How many Gods there are, I do not know. But there never was a time when there were not Gods and worlds, and when men were not passing through the same ordeals that we are now passing through. Brigham Young - Mormon prophet. Journal of Discourses 7:333

God is a natural man... Where did he get his knowledge from? From his Father, just as we get knowledge from our earthly parents.Heber C. Kimball - First Presidency Counselor. Journal of Discourses 8:211. Again, we see that God the father was under ANOTHER God.

President Spencer W. Kimball [Mormon prophet in the mid 1970's] said in a general priesthood meeting: “Brethren, 225,000 of you are here tonight. I suppose 225,000 of you may become gods. There seems to be plenty of space out there in the universe. And the Lord has proved that he knows how to do it. I think he could make, or probably have us help make, worlds for all of us, for every one of us 225,000.". https://www.lds.org/general-confere...-privilege-of-holding-the-priesthood?lang=eng only DEITIES get their own planet to populate. So we are talking about Gods, not gods.

"Then will they become Gods...they will never cease to increase and to multiply, worlds without end. When they receive their crowns, their dominions, they then will be prepared to frame earths like unto ours and to people them in the same manner as we have been brought forth by our parents, by our Father and God” Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 17:143

Hi Kiwi Christian. Not sure what lie you're talking about, but thanks for the info.

 

[spockrates]

Speaking in general as to whether we should do this... sometimes it matters, sometimes it doesn't. For example, obviously only Christ is the Savior. But when "Gods says do X", it doesn't matter who exactly said it-- they are ONE.

Verse 3 is obviously referring to Christ, the Savior.
Verse 5 your could debate things, but I'm personally of the "it doesn't matter" camp.

Yeah, yeah. I suppose it's something LDS may debate but should never divide over. You might disagree vigorously and then go out for a burger afterward!

Thanks for saying, though. It helps me see that the phrase, "one God," can have different meanings to different LDS. Please let me know if these correctly demonstrate some of the acceptable alternatives.

Interpretation A:

1 Timothy 2:3-5 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of [the Son of] God our Saviour; Who will have all [people] to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God [who is the Father], and one mediator between God [the Father] and [people], the man Christ Jesus;
​

Interpretation B:

1 Timothy 2:3-5 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of [the Son of] God our Saviour; Who will have all [people] to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God [which is the unity of three Gods], and one mediator between God [the unity of three] and [people], the man Christ Jesus;
​

Interpretation C:

1 Timothy 2:3-5 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of [the Son of] God our Saviour; Who will have all [people] to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God [the unity of three], and one mediator between God [the Father] and [people], the man Christ Jesus;
​

Interpretation D:

1 Timothy 2:3-5 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of [the Son of] God our Saviour; Who will have all [people] to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. For there is one God [the Father], and one mediator between God [the unity] and [people], the man Christ Jesus;​

 

[spockrates]

"I'm currently a Methodist, which makes me a trinitarian,"

No, that does not make you a trinitarian.

What makes you a "trinitarian" is whether you believe the parts of the Bible that proves Jesus is God.

Please define the word believe, as it can mean different things. You may select a definition, if you like:

believe - Wiktionary

Here is something i like to give people to explain it better.

Did Jesus really say He was God?

That’s exactly how Jesus’ original audience seemed to take it when He said, “I and the Father are one.” In fact, the Jews were ready to kill Him right there! Why? “Because you,” they said, “a mere man, claim to be God” (John 10:33).

On another occasion, He used the personal name of Israel’s God–the name revealed to Moses (Exodus 3:14)–to refer to Himself. And He even used the Torah for context, so no one would misunderstand Him: “Before Abraham was, I AM” (John 8:58). This would be about wild as telling a Muslim, “I am your God, Allah.” Don’t try that in Saudi Arabia! It’s no wonder the Jews tried to stone Him to death. That was the exact penalty for blasphemy under the Jewish legal system. It was pretty clear to everyone there that He was saying, “I am Israel’s God.”


Why Jesus is God? The Apostle Thomas called Jesus God.John 20:27-29: 2. The Apostle Peter called Jesus God.2 Peter 1:1: 3.The Apostle John called Jesus God.John 1:1-3, 4.God the Father called Jesus God.Hebrews 1:8: 5. God the Father called Jesus God. 6.Isaiah the Prophet said the Messiah would be God.Isaiah 9:67. The Jews who crucified Jesus understood Him to be saying that He was equal with God.John 5:18: 8.Jesus called Himself "I AM", the Old Testament name for God (Exodus 3:14).John 8:58-59. 9.Jesus calls Himself "the Alpha and Omega," the title of Almighty God.Revelation 22:12-13. 10. Like God (Gen. 1:1) Jesus created.Colossians 1:16-1711. Like God, Jesus forgives sin.Mark 2:5-7, 10-11:12. Like God, Jesus gives eternal life.John 10:27-28: 13. Like God, Jesus received, receives and will receive worship.Matthew 14:32-33. 14. Jesus said that only God was good; and Jesus was good. John 10:11: "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep."John 10:11: "I am the good shepherd. The good shepherd gives His life for the sheep."Jesus was as good as they come. He was "sinless," "holy," "righteous," "innocent," "undefiled," and "separate from sinners." (Hebrews 7:26) That's pretty good! 15. Like God, Jesus can be present in more than one place at the same time.Matthew 18:20: 16. One of Jesus' titles is "God with us."Matthew 1:23. 17. Jesus' blood is called God's blood.Acts 20:28: 18. Jesus has the same nature as God.Hebrews 1:3a: 19. Jesus spoke as God.Jesus did not speak as one of God's prophets: "thus says the Lord," but as God: "I say to you."Matthew 5:27-29. 20. Like God (Psalm 136:3), Jesus is called the Lord of Lords and King of kings.Revelation 17:14. And I will pour upon the house of David, and upon the inhabitants of Jerusalem, the spirit of grace and of supplications: and they shall look upon me whom they have pierced, and they shall mourn for him, as one mourneth for his only son, and shall be in bitterness for him, as one that is in bitterness for his firstborn. ( WHEN WAS GOD PIERCED? ). And he shall pass through Judah; he shall overflow and go over, he shall reach even to the neck; and the stretching out of his wings shall fill the breadth of thy land, O Immanuel (means God Among Us).



John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God."

John 1:14, "And the Word became flesh, and dwelt among us, and we beheld His glory, glory as of the only begotten from the Father, full of grace and truth."

John 8:58 "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." Crossreference with Exodus 3:14 "And God said unto Moses, I AM THAT I AM: and he said, Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel, I AM hath sent me unto you."

John 10:33 "The Jews answered him, saying, For a good work we stone thee not; but for blasphemy; and because that thou, being a man, makest thyself God."

John 20:28 "And Thomas answered and said unto him, My Lord and my God."

Collossians 2:9 "For in him dwelleth all the fulness of the Godhead bodily."

Hebrews 1:8 "But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: "

Matthew 4:10 "Then saith Jesus unto him, Get thee hence, Satan: for it is written, Thou shalt worship the Lord thy God, and him only shalt thou serve." Crossreference with Matthew 2:2, Matthew 2:11, Matthew 28:9.

Isaiah 44:6 "Thus saith the LORD the King of Israel, and his redeemer the LORD of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." Crossreference with Revelation 1:17 "And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: I am he." and Revelation 1:8 "I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty."

You've given me far more than I can chew! I appreciate your generosity by providing such a feast, but I prefer to enjoy my meal one bite at a time instead of gorging myself. If you want, please choose only one scripture to discuss first.

 

[spockrates]

It is also important to note that not all Mormons agree on whether Mormonism is polytheistic or monotheistic. Indeed, we recently had a thread here where one Mormon rejected polytheism while another Mormon was proud to be considered a polytheist.

What is apparent is that Mormon leaders, church documents, and scriptures make reference to "the Gods". Joseph Smith and others have taught that there are "three Gods". There is reference to the "plurality of Gods". Etc etc. So, while sure, they may claim that there is "one God", they also, at the same time, claim that there are "three Gods". Orthodox Christians of course would never claim such a thing.

NYCGuy:

Are you from New York City? I grew up in upstate NY in Watertown, near Lake Ontario, north of Syracuse.

In the interest of fairness, there is an important difference between polytheism and what Later Day Saints seem to believe (I don't qualify as a spokesperson, just giving my opinion). For polytheism has a flaw the Gods of Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints don't have.

Socrates points out the flaw in Euthyphro, where he asks the pagan theologian how any of the gods can be wise, since they disagree about what is wise and what is foolish, even to the point of going to war with one another! The same Socrates believed this as good reason there must be a God above all gods who is the source of all wisdom. It was a belief for which he was martyred.

Compare this to the God of Mormonism. It's not a group of gods constantly feuding, but a "family" in perfect love and agreement, made up of the Father, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit. Not the same thing as the pagan polytheism of the Greek pantheon, I think.

Just a thought.

 

[Traveling teacher]

I believe the issue with Mormons
Is they put Joseph Smith on an equal level with Jesus as he wrote a separate bible
Book of mormon

 

[spockrates]

I believe the issue with Mormons
Is they put Joseph Smith on an equal level with Jesus as he wrote a separate bible
Book of mormon

Hi Traveling Teacher. Where do you travel and what do you teach?

Yeah, no. Equal level with Peter or Paul, maybe? I don't think they say Joseph Smith was the Son of God walking on earth, like Jesus.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Yeah, yeah. I suppose it's something LDS may debate but should never divide over. You might disagree vigorously and then go out for a burger afterward!

Actually, LDS don't really debate. If God wishes to reveal His exact interpretation of any verse or point, then He will speak to His prophets to the world. If an individual wish to beseech God for understanding of any point, they are welcome to do that and He will reveal to that individual through His spirit. But it's not like us sitting around and arguing things will somehow reveal Truth-- Truth comes straight from the God, not from men arguing. And many times the "differences" don't really matter- like your the different interruptions you presented here all come to the same conclusion since the Father, Son, and Spirit are all one.

 

[NYCGuy]

NYCGuy:

Are you from New York City? I grew up in upstate NY in Watertown, near Lake Ontario, north of Syracuse.

In the interest of fairness, there is an important difference between polytheism and what Later Day Saints seem to believe (I don't qualify as a spokesperson, just giving my opinion). For polytheism has a flaw the Gods of Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints don't have.

Socrates points out the flaw in Euthyphro, where he asks the pagan theologian how any of the gods can be wise, since they disagree about what is wise and what is foolish, even to the point of going to war with one another! The same Socrates believed this as good reason there must be a God above all gods who is the source of all wisdom. It was a belief for which he was martyred.

Compare this to the God of Mormonism. It's not a group of gods constantly feuding, but a "family" in perfect love and agreement, made up of the Father, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit. Not the same thing as the pagan polytheism of the Greek pantheon, I think.

Just a thought.

Thanks for the thoughts. I'm not sure that "feuding" is included in the definition of "polytheism". Either way, the point was, in another thread, one Mormon rejected polytheism, while another embraced polytheism.

 

[spockrates]

Thanks for the thoughts. I'm not sure that "feuding" is included in the definition of "polytheism". Either way, the point was, in another thread, one Mormon rejected polytheism, while another embraced polytheism.

Understood. Thanks.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I believe the issue with Mormons
Is they put Joseph Smith on an equal level with Jesus as he wrote a separate bible
Book of mormon

Hi Traveling Teacher, thanks for posting here! I don't think I've seen you around before

Just to clarify LDS beliefs: LDS do not believe that Joseph Smith is remotely remotely like Christ. Christ is the savior of the world, the alpha and omega, the Son of God. Joseph Smith was a servant of Christ, and a very flawed servant at that. Jesus Christ lived sinless and paved the way for all of our sins to be forgiven. Joseph Smith was a sinner.

As part of Joseph Smith's work as a servant of God, he translated (not wrote) the Book of Mormon. The Book of Mormon was written by ancient prophets whom (like all prophets) testified of Christ. We talk of Christ, rejoice of Christ, prophesy of Christ, and write of Christ so that all may know where to look for remission of their sins. His name is used an average every 1.7 verses in the Book of Mormon, more often than the Bible. The Book of Mormon does not replace the Bible, but rather stands beside it, witnessing of the same Truth.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Yeah, no. Equal level with Peter or Paul, maybe? I don't think they say Joseph Smith was the Son of God walking on earth, like Jesus.

That is correct.

 

[spockrates]

Actually, LDS don't really debate. If God wishes to reveal His exact interpretation of any verse or point, then He will speak to His prophets to the world. If an individual wish to beseech God for understanding of any point, they are welcome to do that and He will reveal to that individual through His spirit. But it's not like us sitting around and arguing things will somehow reveal Truth-- Truth comes straight from the God, not from men arguing. And many times the "differences" don't really matter- like your the different interruptions you presented here all come to the same conclusion since the Father, Son, and Spirit are all one.

Yeah, yeah. Debate was a poor word to use. I was thinking more like expressing differences of opinion on matters where LDS are free to speculate. One example: The gender and relation of the Holy Ghost to God the Father. I think you or another LDS said some LDS say he might be a brother of the Son of God and others speculate she might be a wife or the wife of God the Father. Or was that the incorrect opinion of a non-LDS? (Can't remember who said it.)

 

[spockrates]

That is correct.

I'm learning.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Yeah, yeah. Debate was a poor word to use. I was thinking more like differences of opinion on matters where LDS are free to speculate.

It is true that LDS can have difference on options/interpretations on different things, especially when things have not been revealed doctrinally (not speculatively). An example that's come up a couple of times this thread is any possible history of the Father: an LDS person can agree, disagree, not care, don't know, etc. All would be 100% in good standing. And we're not going to spend precious time in church stressing over these speculations-- church time is for learning/practicing doctrines, not speculations.

One example: The gender of the relation of the Holy Ghost. I think you or another LDS said some LDS say he might be a brother of the Son of God and others speculate she might be a wife or the wife of God the Father. Or was that the incorrect opinion of a non-LDS? (Can't remember who said it.)

That's another example of speculation questions.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I'm learning.

Quite thoroughly!

I continue to be impressed by your Christ-like demeanor, respectful approach, and overall charitable presence on this thread!

 

[spockrates]

It is true that LDS can have difference on options/interpretations on different things, especially when things have not been revealed doctrinally (not speculatively). An example that's come up a couple of times this thread is any possible history of the Father: an LDS person can agree, disagree, not care, don't know, etc. All would be 100% in good standing. And we're not going to spend precious time in church stressing over these speculations-- church time is for learning/practicing doctrines, not speculations.

That's another example of speculation questions.

I suppose forum time is for speculation? Good thing, because I'm a wonderer!

 

[spockrates]

Quite thoroughly!

I continue to be impressed by your Christ-like demeanor, respectful approach, and overall charitable presence on this thread!

I appreciate that, but I confess I wasn't always so. Used to win a lot of arguments by getting the word of God bloody as a double edged sword. Turned it into a plowshare several years ago.

 

[Jane_Doe]

I appreciate that, but I confess I wasn't always so. Used to win a lot of arguments by getting the word of God bloody as a double edged sword. Turned it into a plowshare several years ago.

Fantastic! I myself am always striving in that direction- though I confess to many many backslides.