LDS Wondering About the Godhead and the Trinity

[Jane_Doe]

...


Hope you don't mind me interrupting. Do you mean they're one in a unified purpose, or is there another way they're one as well?

ONE in purpose and all the things that go with that (love, aims, etc)

 

[Sanoy]

John 17:20-21 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

This verse has a context. Jesus is looking up to heaven and speaking to the father for the sake of the disciples saying in verse 11...."Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one." This goes back to Exodus 23:21 "Pay careful attention to him and obey his voice; do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgression, for my name is in him."

What we are seeing here in Exodus 23:20 is the Old Testament Jesus. The name is one of the essences that Jesus contains that the father also contains. It treats a transgression against Him as a transgression against the father. The Son and the Father are one in essence, by name. And the disciples, and the believers as in verse 20 are one through the name or "kept in the name". There is a humongous difference between having the name and falling under the name as we see in both exodus 23 and other places.

We learn from Exodus 33:20 that "No one can see Yahweh and live."
We also learn in John 14:9 that "If you have seen me you have seen the father". This is something Gideon came across when Jesus visited him. Judges 6:22 "Then Gideon perceived that he was the angel of the Lord. And Gideon said, “Alas, O Lord God! For now I have seen the angel of the Lord face to face.” 23 But the Lord said to him, “Peace be to you. Do not fear; you shall not die.” Gideon knew that "seeing the angel of the Lord" was in essence seeing Yahweh, that is why he thought he would die. ("Angel of the Lord" was one of the titles for Jesus in the OT, Angel meaning messenger) Gideon knew he saw Yahweh face to face, but did not understand why he would not die.

The reason Gideon did not die is because the Father is Yahweh invisible, and the son is Yahweh visible. The Jews very much believed in two powers in heaven both considered as Yahweh.

Another example is Genesis 31:13 where the Angel of the Lord calls himself the God of Bethel. This reference refers back to the Jacobs Ladder scene where Jacob awakes from the dream and says in Genesis 28:16 “Surely the Lord[literally Yahweh] is in this place, and I did not know it." So here we have the "Angel of the Lord" specifically referencing himself as the Yahweh of Bethel.

Another example is 1 Samuel 3:10 "And the Lord [literally Yahweh] came and stood, calling as at other times." This could only be Yahweh Visible (Jesus) here. And again in verse 21 "And the Lord [Literally Yahweh] appeared again at Shiloh, for the Lord revealed himself to Samuel at Shiloh by the word of the Lord [Yahweh]." So here we have the verse saying "Yahweh appeared at Shiloh, For Yahweh revealed himself by the word of Yahweh." That isn't poor writing, that is Yahweh reveling himself through the word of Yahweh, Jesus.

One last example of 2 Yahwehs before I go. From Genesis 19:24 "Then the Lord [Yahweh] rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the Lord [Yahweh] out of heaven." This verse is explicitly speaking of two Yahwehs.

 

[stuart lawrence]

Hi. I'm wondering about comparing the different concepts of what some call the Godhead. I'm not sure, but I believe many Latter Day Saints believe in a Triad. I know many Christians believe in a Trinity. I'm wondering what the logical or scriptural arguments are to support each, so that I might compare the two and make up my own mind.

Please let me know if you're a Mormon and whether you believe in the Trinity or not, so I don't have to ask. If you have time, describe or define your preferred doctrine, even if you're a trinitarian, as I've found Christians sometimes have different ideas about why the Trinity is.

I'm currently a Methodist, which makes me a trinitarian, but I'm not looking for some kind of debate and don't care to convince anyone but myself. I do tend to ask a lot of simple questions, but won't be offended if one doesn't have time to answer them. I realize this is a debate forum and have no problem with others using this discussion for that purpose. I think I'd benefit from reading the comments of both sides.

I Hope to have a thoughtful and personally helpful conversation.

I hope you spend more time seeking to take up your cross and follow after Christ than you do considering different concepts of the Godhead

 

[spockrates]

ONE in purpose and all the things that go with that (love, aims, etc)

Got it. Thanks.

 

[spockrates]

This verse has a context. Jesus is looking up to heaven and speaking to the father for the sake of the disciples saying in verse 11...."Holy Father, keep them in your name, which you have given me, that they may be one, even as we are one." This goes back to Exodus 23:21 "Pay careful attention to him and obey his voice; do not rebel against him, for he will not pardon your transgression, for my name is in him."

Hi Sanyo.

Sounds like Jesus is asking God to make them one the very same we he and the Father are one. Hmmm.

What we are seeing here in Exodus 23:20 is the Old Testament Jesus. The name is one of the essences that Jesus contains that the father also contains. It treats a transgression against Him as a transgression against the father. The Son and the Father are one in essence, by name. And the disciples, and the believers as in verse 20 are one through the name or "kept in the name". There is a humongous difference between having the name and falling under the name as we see in both exodus 23 and other places.

We learn from Exodus 33:20 that "No one can see Yahweh and live."
We also learn in John 14:9 that "If you have seen me you have seen the father". This is something Gideon came across when Jesus visited him. Judges 6:22 "Then Gideon perceived that he was the angel of the Lord. And Gideon said, “Alas, O Lord God! For now I have seen the angel of the Lord face to face.” 23 But the Lord said to him, “Peace be to you. Do not fear; you shall not die.” Gideon knew that "seeing the angel of the Lord" was in essence seeing Yahweh, that is why he thought he would die. ("Angel of the Lord" was one of the titles for Jesus in the OT, Angel meaning messenger) Gideon knew he saw Yahweh face to face, but did not understand why he would not die.

The reason Gideon did not die is because the Father is Yahweh invisible, and the son is Yahweh visible. The Jews very much believed in two powers in heaven both considered as Yahweh.

Another example is Genesis 31:13 where the Angel of the Lord calls himself the God of Bethel. This reference refers back to the Jacobs Ladder scene where Jacob awakes from the dream and says in Genesis 28:16 “Surely the Lord[literally Yahweh] is in this place, and I did not know it." So here we have the "Angel of the Lord" specifically referencing himself as the Yahweh of Bethel.

Another example is 1 Samuel 3:10 "And the Lord [literally Yahweh] came and stood, calling as at other times." This could only be Yahweh Visible (Jesus) here. And again in verse 21 "And the Lord [Literally Yahweh] appeared again at Shiloh, for the Lord revealed himself to Samuel at Shiloh by the word of the Lord [Yahweh]." So here we have the verse saying "Yahweh appeared at Shiloh, For Yahweh revealed himself by the word of Yahweh." That isn't poor writing, that is Yahweh reveling himself through the word of Yahweh, Jesus.

One last example of 2 Yahwehs before I go. From Genesis 19:24 "Then the Lord [Yahweh] rained on Sodom and Gomorrah sulfur and fire from the Lord [Yahweh] out of heaven." This verse is explicitly speaking of two Yahwehs.

Thanks for taking the time to look those up for me.

 

[spockrates]

I hope you spend more time seeking to take up your cross and follow after Christ than you do considering different concepts of the Godhead

Perhaps I have to know who to follow before I try to follow? I mean, someone might say, "Dude! Don't be dense! Just follow Jesus!" My reply would be, "Which Jesus?"

 

[stuart lawrence]

Perhaps I have to know who to follow before I try to follow? I mean, someone might say, "Dude! Don't be dense! Just follow Jesus!" My reply would be, "Which Jesus?"

 

[stuart lawrence]

Perhaps I have to know who to follow before I try to follow? I mean, someone might say, "Dude! Don't be dense! Just follow Jesus!" My reply would be, "Which Jesus?"

If a born again Christian has to ask the question:
which Jesus.
I would have to wonder why that was

 

[spockrates]

If a born again Christian has to ask the question:
which Jesus.
I would have to wonder why that was

Makes me wonder as well.

Do you think it's possible to not be sure about the nature of God and still receive the gift of eternal life?

 

[spockrates]

ONE in purpose and all the things that go with that (love, aims, etc)

So getting back to the Godhead. Do you find it as fascinating as I do? The similarities I mean between LDS and trinitarians?

Think about it. A noun is a person, place or thing. The noun Godhead represents a thing both say. The difference is only this: Whereas LDS say the three persons (Father, Son and Holy Ghost) are in the Godhead, trinitarians say the Godhead is in the three persons!

 

[spockrates]

For where trinitarians believe in one Godhead in three persons, LDS believe in three persons in one Godhead. Don't they?

 

[Jane_Doe]

Makes me wonder as well.

Do you think it's possible to not be sure about the nature of God and still receive the gift of eternal life?

Different Christians will give you different answers to this. As to me: Christ said "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind." He didn't say anything about having to pass a theology quiz. In fact, one could reason that the little children He specifically called unto Him did not have any extensive theology quiz taking capabilities, but were still pure in heart in their desire to come unto Him.

 

[Jane_Doe]

So getting back to the Godhead. Do you find it as fascinating as I do? The similarities I mean between LDS and trinitarians?

I honestly am constantly surprised how people of both views don't understand how related both views are.

Think about it. A noun is a person, place or thing. The noun Godhead represents a thing both say. The difference is only this: Whereas LDS say the three persons (Father, Son and Holy Ghost) are in the Godhead, trinitarians say the Godhead is in the three persons!

For where trinitarians believe in one Godhead in three persons, LDS believe in three persons in one Godhead. Don't they?

I'm not sure I would phrase it that way... it seems kind of an odd way of putting it. Or maybe I'm just being dense...

I would rather just say that both believe in three divine persons that together are one God. They differ in the *how* these three are one God.

 

[withwonderingawe]

Jesus works under the direction of the Father and is in complete harmony with Him. All mankind are His brethren and sisters, He being the eldest of the spirit children of Elohim. (Bible Dictionary)
If Jesus is the "eldest of the spirit children of Elohim," then he was created just like us.

There is a difference in our meaning of the word create, to you create means something from nothing. To us it means to organize already existing matter or souls. The 'being' of Jesus has always existed it is not created from nothing. We call this 'being' an intelligence and light, it has gender and a will. God the Father takes the intelligence and places or clothes it within spirit matter. This action makes him the Father of Spirits and Light, see James 1:17, Heb 12:9. Jesus was the firstborn of the Spirit.

His natural will was one of righteousness, his will has always been one with the Father's will and in that sense he has always been God. There appears to be a formal anointing of Jesus/Yahweh as God by his God and Father which is mentioned Heb 1.

 

[buzuxi]

Hi. I'm wondering about comparing the different concepts of what some call the Godhead. I'm not sure, but I believe many Latter Day Saints believe in a Triad. I know many Christians believe in a Trinity. I'm wondering what the logical or scriptural arguments are to support each, so that I might compare the two and make up my own mind.

Please let me know if you're a Mormon and whether you believe in the Trinity or not, so I don't have to ask. If you have time, describe or define your preferred doctrine, even if you're a trinitarian, as I've found Christians sometimes have different ideas about why the Trinity is.

I just want to clarify that the words triad and trinity are identical. Triad ( τριαδος or τριάδας ) is the Greek word for trinity. Trinity is simply the Latin transliteration for triad (trinitas).
I have not read through this entire thread but some early posts speak of the so-called Athanasian Creed. This is a poor standard as no Eastern Christian uses this creed. The standard is the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed which teaches the sole source of the entire Trinitarian Godhead is the Unoriginate Father. The Son eternally begotten by the Unbegotten and the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father alone.

 

[lsume]

Hi. I'm wondering about comparing the different concepts of what some call the Godhead. I'm not sure, but I believe many Latter Day Saints believe in a Triad. I know many Christians believe in a Trinity. I'm wondering what the logical or scriptural arguments are to support each, so that I might compare the two and make up my own mind.

Please let me know if you're a Mormon and whether you believe in the Trinity or not, so I don't have to ask. If you have time, describe or define your preferred doctrine, even if you're a trinitarian, as I've found Christians sometimes have different ideas about why the Trinity is.

I'm currently a Methodist, which makes me a trinitarian, but I'm not looking for some kind of debate and don't care to convince anyone but myself. I do tend to ask a lot of simple questions, but won't be offended if one doesn't have time to answer them. I realize this is a debate forum and have no problem with others using this discussion for that purpose. I think I'd benefit from reading the comments of both sides.

I Hope to have a thoughtful and personally helpful conversation.

God The Father and God The Son and God The Holy Spirit are all one in Spirit yet distinct. I understand that many believe that Jesus The Christ is God The Father. I strongly believe that each is distinct yet one in Spirit. As The Lord Jesus walked the earth, He walked in The Spirit of God The Father. Christ was lowly and meek. I want to be just like my Lord and Savior Jesus The Christ and I am very well aware of the fact that I cannot improve myself. Christ is the only way that I can grow.

Heb.12

1. 
   [2] Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

When Christ was called good, He responded.

Mark.10

1. 
   
   [18] And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Luke.18

1. 
   [19] And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

So I must ask myself, where does that leave me? I am less than nothing by comparison.

Jas.5

1. [11] Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

The Scripture above is what I want to be like. I cannot make myself that way.

In Daniel

Dan.3 Verses 16 to 30

1. 
   
   [16] Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter.
   [17] If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.
   [18] But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.
   [19] Then was Nebuchadnezzar full of fury, and the form of his visage was changed against Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego: therefore he spake, and commanded that they should heat the furnace one seven times more than it was wont to be heated.
   [20] And he commanded the most mighty men that were in his army to bind Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, and to cast them into the burning fiery furnace.
   [21] Then these men were bound in their coats, their hosen, and their hats, and their other garments, and were cast into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
   [22] Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flame of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego.
   [23] And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
   [24] Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellers, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.
   [25] He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
   [26] Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace, and spake, and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, ye servants of the most high God, come forth, and come hither. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, came forth of the midst of the fire.
   [27] And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellers, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them.
   [28] Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king's word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God.
   [29] Therefore I make a decree, That every people, nation, and language, which speak any thing amiss against the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, shall be cut in pieces, and their houses shall be made a dunghill: because there is no other God that can deliver after this sort.
   [30] Then the king promoted Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, in the province of Babylon.

I believe that the fourth was Christ. I also believe that true communion is with my soul and God The Father and God The Son and God The Holy Spirit.

 

[spockrates]

Different Christians will give you different answers to this. As to me: Christ said "Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind." He didn't say anything about having to pass a theology quiz. In fact, one could reason that the little children He specifically called unto Him did not have any extensive theology quiz taking capabilities, but were still pure in heart in their desire to come unto Him.

Yeah, the LDS idea of lower heavens (is that the correct way to say?) and the Catholic idea of purgatory seem more merciful to me. Not sure either is explicitly taught in the Bible.

 

[spockrates]

I honestly am constantly surprised how people of both views don't understand how related both views are.

I'm not sure I would phrase it that way... it seems kind of an odd way of putting it. Or maybe I'm just being dense...

I would rather just say that both believe in three divine persons that together are one God. They differ in the *how* these three are one God.

Thanks, my friend.

Please describe the one God who the three are. Is it like a group thing, as in one government over the earth, or is it something different?

 

[spockrates]

I just want to clarify that the words triad and trinity are identical. Triad ( τριαδος or τριάδας ) is the Greek word for trinity. Trinity is simply the Latin transliteration for triad (trinitas).

Thank you, buzuxi!

I have not read through this entire thread but some early posts speak of the so-called Athanasian Creed. This is a poor standard as no Eastern Christian uses this creed. The standard is the Nicene-Constantinopolitan Creed which teaches the sole source of the entire Trinitarian Godhead is the Unoriginate Father. The Son eternally begotten by the Unbegotten and the Holy Spirit proceeding from the Father alone.

Hey, are you a Greek Orthodox Christian? I'm a fan of Socrates and like to think of the Father of Philosophy as a kind of John the Baptist to the Greeks. I enjoy reading his conversations, and statements he made about 300 years before Christ, like this:

I am called wise, for my hearers always imagine that I myself possess wisdom which I find wanting in others. But the truth is, O men of Athens, that God alone is wise, and...the wisdom of men is little or nothing.
(Apology 23)​

Seems to me he was martyred for teaching that there was one God above all the Greek gods who alone was wise.

Never heard of the Unoriginate Father. Please tell me your thoughts on him, if you have time.

 

[spockrates]

God The Father and God The Son and God The Holy Spirit are all one in Spirit yet distinct. I understand that many believe that Jesus The Christ is God The Father. I strongly believe that each is distinct yet one in Spirit. As The Lord Jesus walked the earth, He walked in The Spirit of God The Father. Christ was lowly and meek. I want to be just like my Lord and Savior Jesus The Christ and I am very well aware of the fact that I cannot improve myself. Christ is the only way that I can grow.

Heb.12

1. 
   [2] Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.

When Christ was called good, He responded.

Mark.10

1. 
   
   [18] And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God.

Luke.18

1. 
   [19] And Jesus said unto him, Why callest thou me good? none is good, save one, that is, God.

So I must ask myself, where does that leave me? I am less than nothing by comparison.

Jas.5

1. [11] Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

The Scripture above is what I want to be like. I cannot make myself that way.

In Daniel

Dan.3 Verses 16 to 30

1. 
   
   [16] Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, answered and said to the king, O Nebuchadnezzar, we are not careful to answer thee in this matter.
   [17] If it be so, our God whom we serve is able to deliver us from the burning fiery furnace, and he will deliver us out of thine hand, O king.
   [18] But if not, be it known unto thee, O king, that we will not serve thy gods, nor worship the golden image which thou hast set up.
   [19] Then was Nebuchadnezzar full of fury, and the form of his visage was changed against Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego: therefore he spake, and commanded that they should heat the furnace one seven times more than it was wont to be heated.
   [20] And he commanded the most mighty men that were in his army to bind Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, and to cast them into the burning fiery furnace.
   [21] Then these men were bound in their coats, their hosen, and their hats, and their other garments, and were cast into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
   [22] Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flame of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego.
   [23] And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.
   [24] Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonied, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellers, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.
   [25] He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.
   [26] Then Nebuchadnezzar came near to the mouth of the burning fiery furnace, and spake, and said, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, ye servants of the most high God, come forth, and come hither. Then Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, came forth of the midst of the fire.
   [27] And the princes, governors, and captains, and the king's counsellers, being gathered together, saw these men, upon whose bodies the fire had no power, nor was an hair of their head singed, neither were their coats changed, nor the smell of fire had passed on them.
   [28] Then Nebuchadnezzar spake, and said, Blessed be the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, who hath sent his angel, and delivered his servants that trusted in him, and have changed the king's word, and yielded their bodies, that they might not serve nor worship any god, except their own God.
   [29] Therefore I make a decree, That every people, nation, and language, which speak any thing amiss against the God of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, shall be cut in pieces, and their houses shall be made a dunghill: because there is no other God that can deliver after this sort.
   [30] Then the king promoted Shadrach, Meshach, and Abed-nego, in the province of Babylon.

I believe that the fourth was Christ. I also believe that true communion is with my soul and God The Father and God The Son and God The Holy Spirit.

Hi Isume. Reminds me of that old hymn I used to sing with Baptists that I think went like this:

Bless the Lord, O my soul, and all that is within me bless his holy name.​

If you have time, please explain what the words, "one in spirit" mean to you.