LDS Wondering About the Godhead and the Trinity

[spockrates]

Hi. I'm wondering about comparing the different concepts of what some call the Godhead. I'm not sure, but I believe many Latter Day Saints believe in a Triad. I know many Christians believe in a Trinity. I'm wondering what the logical or scriptural arguments are to support each, so that I might compare the two and make up my own mind.

Please let me know if you're a Mormon and whether you believe in the Trinity or not, so I don't have to ask. If you have time, describe or define your preferred doctrine, even if you're a trinitarian, as I've found Christians sometimes have different ideas about why the Trinity is.

I'm currently a Methodist, which makes me a trinitarian, but I'm not looking for some kind of debate and don't care to convince anyone but myself. I do tend to ask a lot of simple questions, but won't be offended if one doesn't have time to answer them. I realize this is a debate forum and have no problem with others using this discussion for that purpose. I think I'd benefit from reading the comments of both sides.

I Hope to have a thoughtful and personally helpful conversation.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Hi. I'm wondering about comparing the different concepts of what some call the Godhead. I'm not looking for some kind of debate and don't care to convince anyone but myself. I do tend to ask a lot of simple questions, but won't be offended if one doesn't have time to answer them. I realize this is a debate forum and have no problem with others using this discussion for that purpose. I think I'd benefit from reading the comments of both sides.

I'm not sure, but I believe many Latter Day Saints believe in a Triad and many other Christians believe in a Trinity. I'm wondering what the logical or scriptural arguments are to support each, so that I might compare the two and make up my mind.

If you want, please tell me which of the two doctrines you prefer and why. If you have time, describe or define your preferred doctrine.

Hope to have a thoughtful and personally helpful conversation.

I've never heard the word "triad" used to describe LDS beliefs before and I don't think it fits....

Anyways, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Anthansian Christians both believe:
The Father is 100% divine.
The Son of God, Jesus Christ is 100% divine.
The Holy Spirit is 100% divine.
The Father, Son, and Spirit are all without beginning nor end. None of them is a “creation”.
The Father is not the Son, nor vice verse. Neither of them are the Spirit. They are 3 different persons.
The Father, Son, and Spirit together are 1 God.

The difference comes in:
Mormons believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are 1 God through unity. LDS point to scripture as the source of this doctrine, including verses such as John 17:21.

Anthansian Christians believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are 1 God through co-substantiation, as stated in the Anthansian Creed.

 

[spockrates]

I've never heard the word "triad" used to describe LDS beliefs before and I don't think it fits....

Yes, seems I'm showing my ignorance. Thanks for the correction.

Anyways, members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and Anthansian Christians both believe:
The Father is 100% divine.
The Son of God, Jesus Christ is 100% divine.
The Holy Spirit is 100% divine.
The Father, Son, and Spirit are all without beginning nor end. None of them is a “creation”.
The Father is not the Son, nor vice verse. Neither of them are the Spirit. They are 3 different persons.
The Father, Son, and Spirit together are 1 God.

The difference comes in:
Mormons believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are 1 God through unity. LDS point to scripture as the source of this doctrine, including verses such as John 17:21.

John 17:20-21 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
​

Thanks. Someone told me that these words actually teach the Trinity.

Anthansian Christians believe that the Father, Son, and Spirit are 1 God through co-substantiation, as stated in the Anthansian Creed.

May I ask if you're a Mormon?

 

[Jane_Doe]

Yes, seems I'm showing my ignorance. Thanks for the correction.

Np

John 17:20-21 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word; That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.
​

Thanks. Someone told me that these words actually teach the Trinity.

It does not.

The lynchpin of the Trinity idea is that the Father/Son are one through a shared substance, which is found no where in the Bible. John 17:21 is evidence against the Trinity, as we obviously do not share a substance with the Father or Christ, and hence cannot be one with either of them through consubstantial means.

May I ask if you're a Mormon?

Yes, as indicated by my profile thing on the left. Part of the reasoning behind my choice of faith is this particular issue.

 

[spockrates]

Np

It does not.

The lynchpin of the Trinity idea is that the Father/Son are one through a shared substance, which is found no where in the Bible. John 17:21 is evidence against the Trinity, as we obviously do not share a substance with the Father or Christ, and hence cannot be one with either other through consubstantial means.

I guess I suffer from double vision, here. For I can see how what you say is true, and the passage indeed might be speaking of being one in purpose, rather than one in essence. But I also cannot difinitively rule out the point trinitarians make that Jesus is praying that we be one in purpose with he Father, but he is one in both purpose and essence (not sure if I'm using the correct term, there).

I'm willing to say this passage is to ambiguous to say either way.

Yes, as indicated by my profile thing on the left. Part of the reasoning behind my choice of faith is this particular issue.

Thanks. Are you also 108 years old, did you choose the wrong birth date?

The creed you mentioned sure sounds trinitarian to me.

Athanasian Creed

Are you saying some Mormons believe the same, or merely something similar?

 

[Jane_Doe]

I guess I suffer from double vision, here. For I can see how what you say is true, and the passage indeed might be speaking of being one in purpose, rather than one in essence. But I also cannot difinitively rule out the point trinitarians make that Jesus is praying that we be one in purpose with he Father, but he is one in both purpose and essence (not sure if I'm using the correct term, there).

I'm willing to say this passage is to ambiguous to say either way.

I really respect your fair way of looking at this and trying to understand both views.

Thanks. The creed you mentioned sure sounds trinitarian to me.

Athanasian Creed

Yes, that is the codification of the Trinity beliefs. It was written by a council of men ~500 years after Christ.

Are you saying some Mormons believe the same, or merely something similar?

LDS don't acknowledge the Athanasian Creed (or any other Creed) as being authoritative, as they are not scripture revealed by God through His mouthpieces. If your question here is referring to your OP Trinity related question, the difference in view points is in the *how* these three persons (Father/Son/Spirit) are ONE God.

 

[spockrates]

I really respect your fair way of looking at this and trying to understand both views.

I appreciate you taking the time to answer.

BTW, do you prefer I use the term Mormon or Latter Day Saint?

Yes, that is the codification of the Trinity beliefs. It was written by a council of men ~500 years after Christ.

LDS don't acknowledge the Athanasian Creed (or any other Creed) as being authoritative, as they are not scripture revealed by God through His mouthpieces. If your question here is referring to your OP Trinity related question, the difference in view points is in the *how* these three persons (Father/Son/Spirit) are ONE God.

It might be beyond my comprehension, but perhaps you have a simple answer for this: What is the difference between the Athanasian Creed view and the similar but different view held by some Mormons?

 

[Jane_Doe]

BTW, do you prefer I use the term Mormon or Latter Day Saint?

*Shrug* Doesn't matter. Thought "Latter-day Saint" or LDS is more typically used in church circles, as it relates back to the actual church name.

It might be beyond my comprehension, but what is the difference between the Athanasian Creed view and the similar but different view held by some Mormons?

They are similar, but also notably different. I'll go through some of the Athanasian Creed and give some comparative commentary:

Athanasian: "Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance."
LDS: Huh?? What does that even mean? The Bible does not talk about substance at all! The Father/Son/Spirt are one through unity.

Athanasian: "For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit."
LDS: agreed.

Athanasian: "Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. "
LDS: they are indeed all eternal, and they all share the same glory/power (cause they are united). The Son does bow down the the Father though and refer to Him as "my God".

Athanasian: "The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible."
LDS: No!!! Rather the purpose of life eternal is to know the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17

Athanasian: "The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal."
LDS: agreed.

(To keep this from being super long, I didn't talk about every line of the Creed. If you want me to discuss any particular point, feel free to ask).

 

[spockrates]

*Shrug* Doesn't matter. Thought "Latter-day Saint" or LDS is more typically used in church circles, as it relates back to the actual church name.

They are similar, but also notably different. I'll go through some of the Athanasian Creed and give some comparative commentary:

Athanasian: "Neither confounding the persons nor dividing the substance."
LDS: Huh?? What does that even mean? The Bible does not talk about substance at all! The Father/Son/Spirt are one through unity.

I could be wrong, but I believe confounding might mean confusing, as in saying they're the same person. For example, there are Modalists who deny the Trinity and say there is one God who is one person at a time - sometimes appearing as the Father, sometimes appearing as the Son and sometimes appearing as the Holy Ghost. God has different modes, they say, and they deny he is ever all three modes at the same time.

Regarding substance, the only way it makes sense to me is in using the phrase some trinitarians (often Evangelicals) use:

God is one what in three who's.

The substance is the What of God, the persons are the Who's.

There are other Christians who deny this, but it seems to me such denial makes the doctrine illogical. For if there is only one God, and God is a person, and God is in three persons, then it seems God is both three persons and not three persons, which is a contradiction.

Athanasian: "For there is one person of the Father, another of the Son, and another of the Holy Spirit."
LDS: agreed.

Athanasian: "Godhead of the Father, of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit is all one, the glory equal, the majesty coeternal. "
LDS: they are indeed all eternal, and they all share the same glory/power (cause they are united). The Son does bow down the the Father though and refer to Him as "my God".

Athanasian: "The Father incomprehensible, the Son incomprehensible, and the Holy Spirit incomprehensible."
LDS: No!!! Rather the purpose of life eternal is to know the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." John 17

It might be a knowing of degree? You and I might know the Son better today than we did a few years ago. But I suppose we'll both know him best if we ever have the blessing of seeing him face to face. Jesus' prayer, then might not be fulfilled until we reach the other side of eternity, I guess.

Athanasian: "The Father eternal, the Son eternal, and the Holy Spirit eternal."
LDS: agreed.

(To keep this from being super long, I didn't talk about every line of the Creed. If you want me to discuss any particular point, feel free to ask).

Yes, thank you.

 

[tstor]

If you have time, describe or define your preferred doctrine, even if you're a trinitarian, as I've found Christians sometimes have different ideas about why the Trinity is.

You are right in saying that "Christians sometimes have different ideas about why the Trinity is." For the most part, trinitarians have to straddle the fence between tritheism and modalism. Though, fundamentally, the doctrine of the trinity is this:

There is one eternal being of God - indivisible, infinite. This one being of God is shared by three co-equal, co-eternal persons, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit.
​

While the Scriptures do not explicitly teach the above statement, we see that the one God of the Bible is identified as Jehovah in the Old Testament (Deuteronomy 6:4-9) We then proceed to see the attributes and titles of Jehovah applied to three distinct persons in the New Testament: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Let's consider some passages that show this:

Deity of the Son

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was notany thing made that was made. […] And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. […] No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known. (John 1:1-3, 14, 18; ESV)​

Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." (John 20:28, 29; ESV)

To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. (Romans 9:5; ESV)

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. (1 John 5:20; ESV)

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works. (Titus 2:11-14; ESV)

To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Chris... (2 Peter 1:1; ESV)
​

I would also point you to Hebrews 1. Note how the Old Testament passages about Jehovah in Psalm 45 are applied to Jesus in the New Testament. As well, look at Revelation 5. Note how the Lamb is receiving the same worship as the one on the throne and how the Lamb is distinguished from the rest of creation.

Deity of the Spirit

But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? [...] Why is it that you have contrived this deed inyour heart? You have not lied to man but to God." (Acts 5:3, 5; ESV)

Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. (2 Corinthians 3:17; ESV)​

Triune Formula

God of my fathers, and Lord of mercy, who hast made all things with thy word, [...] Give me wisdom, that sitteth by thy throne, and cast me not off from among thy children: [...] And who shall know thy thought, except thou give wisdom, and send thy Holy Spirit from above? Wisdom 9:1, 4, 17; DV)
​

Of course, there are many other passages that one could point to. However, I believe that this is appropriate for just a brief presentation. I hope I have been able to help you.

​

 

[Jane_Doe]

It might be a knowing of degree? You and I might know the Son better today than we did a few years ago. But I suppose we'll both know him best if we ever have the blessing of seeing him face to face. Jesus' prayer, then might not be fulfilled until we reach the other side of eternity, I guess.

You sound LDS here

 

[spockrates]

You sound LDS here

I have an aunt June who's LDS. She's fun to talk with, always seems happy and peaceful, and an all around nice person. You remind me a little of her!

 

[spockrates]

You are right in saying that "Christians sometimes have different ideas about why the Trinity is." For the most part, trinitarians have to straddle the fence between tritheism and modalism. Though, fundamentally, the doctrine of the trinity is this:

There is one eternal being of God - indivisible, infinite. This one being of God is shared by three co-equal, co-eternal persons, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit.​

Hi Tstor.

Please define the word being as you are using it, here. Do you mean this?

being = person

Or do you mean something else?

While the Scriptures do not explicitly teach the above statement, we see that the one God of the Bible is identified as Jehovah in the Old Testament (Deuteronomy 6:4-9) We then proceed to see the attributes and titles of Jehovah applied to three distinct persons in the New Testament: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. Let's consider some passages that show this:​

Deity of the Son

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. All things were made through him, and without him was notany thing made that was made. […] And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, and we have seen his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father, full of grace and truth. […] No one has ever seen God; the only God, who is at the Father's side, he has made him known. (John 1:1-3, 14, 18; ESV)​

Thomas answered him, "My Lord and my God!" Jesus said to him, "Have you believed because you have seen me? Blessed are those who have not seen and yet have believed." (John 20:28, 29; ESV)

To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ, who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen. (Romans 9:5; ESV)

And we know that the Son of God has come and has given us understanding, so that we may know him who is true; and we are in him who is true, in his Son Jesus Christ. He is the true God and eternal life. (1 John 5:20; ESV)

For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people, training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, waiting for our blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us to redeem us from all lawlessness and to purify for himself a people for his own possession who are zealous for good works. (Titus 2:11-14; ESV)

To those who have obtained a faith of equal standing with ours by the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Chris... (2 Peter 1:1; ESV)
​

I would also point you to Hebrews 1. Note how the Old Testament passages about Jehovah in Psalm 45 are applied to Jesus in the New Testament. As well, look at Revelation 5. Note how the Lamb is receiving the same worship as the one on the throne and how the Lamb is distinguished from the rest of creation.

Deity of the Spirit

But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? [...] Why is it that you have contrived this deed inyour heart? You have not lied to man but to God." (Acts 5:3, 5; ESV)

Now the Lord is the Spirit, and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is freedom. (2 Corinthians 3:17; ESV)​

Triune Formula

God of my fathers, and Lord of mercy, who hast made all things with thy word, [...] Give me wisdom, that sitteth by thy throne, and cast me not off from among thy children: [...] And who shall know thy thought, except thou give wisdom, and send thy Holy Spirit from above? Wisdom 9:1, 4, 17; DV)
​

Of course, there are many other passages that one could point to. However, I believe that this is appropriate for just a brief presentation. I hope I have been able to help you.

​

That's an impressive forest of scripture, and I sincerely appreciate the time it took to gather all of them. But I've never been good at seeing the forest for the trees! Would you like to pick one to talk about?

 

[spockrates]

@Jane_Doe :

So I have a question. Is it acceptable for a LDS to say the Father is God and the Son is God, it's just they are different Gods?

Or do you prefer, as Jehovah's Winesses do, to always refer to Jesus as a god (with a lower case g)?

 

[tstor]

​

Please define the word being as you are using it, here. Do you mean being = person? Or do you mean something else?

No, as that would be a contradiction to say that one person is three persons. Or even to say that one being is three beings. So, let me define "person" and "being" as I am using them here today:

person - personal attributes/characteristics, who someone/something is (i.e., fatherhood, sonship, and sanctification)

being - the essence or substance (in a general/common manner) of what someone/something is (i.e., God(head))

That's an impressive forest of scripture, and I sincerely appreciate the time it took to gather all of them. But I've never been good at seeing the forest for the trees! Would you like to pick one to talk about?

I suppose we can examine one for the deity of the Son and one for the deity of the Spirit.

And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!" And the four living creatures said, "Amen!" and the elders fell down and worshiped. (Revelation 5:13-14; ESV)
​

In this passage we have the Lamb (i.e., the Son) recieving the same worship as the one on the throne (i.e., the Father) from every creature. This reveals two things: (1) the Son is to be worshiped in the same way as the Father and, therefore, must be God since we do not worship creatures and (2) the Son is not a creature or else He would have been included with "every creature."

But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? [...] Why is it that you have contrived this deed inyour heart? You have not lied to man but to God." (Acts 5:3, 5; ESV)​

This passage shows Peter stating that Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit. Yet two verses ahead Peter says that Ananias lied to God. Therefore, the Holy Spirit must be God, as the two names are used interchangeably in this passage.

 

[spockrates]

No, as that would be a contradiction to say that one person is three persons. Or even to say that one being is three beings. So, let me define "person" and "being" as I am using them here today:

person - personal attributes/characteristics, who someone/something is (i.e., fatherhood, sonship, and sanctification)

being - the essence or substance (in a general/common manner) of what someone/something is (i.e., God(head))

Sounds logical to me. Would you say it is accurate (though perhaps oversimplified) to say (as Evangelicals often do) that God is one what in three who's?

I suppose we can examine one for the deity of the Son and one for the deity of the Spirit.

And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying, "To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!" And the four living creatures said, "Amen!" and the elders fell down and worshiped. (Revelation 5:13-14; ESV)
​

In this passage we have the Lamb (i.e., the Son) recieving the same worship as the one on the throne (i.e., the Father) from every creature. This reveals two things: (1) the Son is to be worshiped in the same way as the Father and, therefore, must be God since we do not worship creatures and (2) the Son is not a creature or else He would have been included with "every creature."

But Peter said, "Ananias, why has Satan filled your heart to lie to the Holy Spirit and to keep back for yourself part of the proceeds of the land? [...] Why is it that you have contrived this deed inyour heart? You have not lied to man but to God." (Acts 5:3, 5; ESV)​

This passage shows Peter stating that Ananias lied to the Holy Spirit. Yet two verses ahead Peter says that Ananias lied to God. Therefore, the Holy Spirit must be God, as the two names are used interchangeably in this passage.

Yes, thank you. I'm not sure, but I think a LDS wouldn't have a problem with people worshipping God the Son and God the Father. They also wouldn't have a problem with calling the Holy Spirit God, I think. So I don't see your interpretations of those passages as necessarily being contrary to their own. But I'm extremely ignorant of Mormon theology, so I could be wrong.

 

[Jane_Doe]

@Jane_Doe :

So I have a question. Is it acceptable for a LDS to say the Father is God and the Son is God, it's just they are different Gods?

It's kind of a same-difference neither-perfectly-fits type thing, and you'll see different LDS do things differently. Honestly, English we really don't have a good tense for multiple persons-who-are-one. Most common by far you'll just hear LDS people call Jesus Christ the Son of God in particular, or if general to all three "the Godhead".

If you want to go more in depth, here's a good 15 min sermon talking about the Godhead and each individual's role in (video:

or text The Godhead and the Plan of Salvation - By Elder Dallin H. Oaks)

Or do you prefer, as Jehovah's Winesses do, to always refer to Jesus as a god (with a lower case g)?

No. Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Always capital S and G.

 

[tstor]

Sounds logical to me. Would you say it is accurate (though perhaps oversimplified) to say (as Evangelicals often do) that God is one what in three who's?

Yes, I would find that expression fine.

Yes, thank you. I'm not sure, but I think a LDS wouldn't have a problem with people worshipping God the Son and God the Father. They also wouldn't have a problem with calling the Holy Spirit God, I think. So I don't see your interpretations of those passages as necessarily being contrary to their own. But I'm extremely ignorant of Mormon theology, so I could be wrong.

Mormons believe that Jesus was created. As far as I know, they also believe that God the Father was created:

As man now is, God once was:
As God now is, man may be.​

 

[tstor]

Yes, thank you. I'm not sure, but I think a LDS wouldn't have a problem with people worshipping God the Son and God the Father. They also wouldn't have a problem with calling the Holy Spirit God, I think. So I don't see your interpretations of those passages as necessarily being contrary to their own. But I'm extremely ignorant of Mormon theology, so I could be wrong.

To be sure, I believe that Mormons are primary trinitarians. That is, they believe and "experience" the Father, the Son, and the Spirit. They are not secondary trinitarians. That is, they lack the proper theological expression of their faith.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Yes, thank you. I'm not sure, but I think a LDS wouldn't have a problem with people worshipping God the Son and God the Father. They also wouldn't have a problem with calling the Holy Spirit God, I think. So I don't see your interpretations of those passages as necessarily being contrary to their own. But I'm extremely ignorant of Mormon theology, so I could be wrong.

LDS only have a problem with any of the above when people mix up each divine person's role. For example, Jesus Christ didn't tell us to pray to Him, but rather told us to pray to the Father in Christ's name. So that's what we do, and consider it inappropriate to do otherwise. Similarly we always remember that Christ bows down to the Father and refers to Him as "my God". The Father is the ultimate person to which prayer and worship should be directed. The Son is Lord and Redeemer, and the Holy Spirit is the messenger and revealer of the Father and the Son. More useful stuff: Godhead