LDS Wondering About the Godhead and the Trinity

[Jane_Doe]

Mormons believe that Jesus was created.

Incorrect. Here's a bunch of scriptures talking about His eternalness. God, Eternal Nature of

 

[spockrates]

LDS only have a problem with any of the above when people mix up each divine person's role. For example, Jesus Christ didn't tell us to pray to Him, but rather told us to pray to the Father in Christ's name. So that's what we do, and consider it inappropriate to do otherwise. Similarly we always remember that Christ bows down to the Father and refers to Him as "my God". The Father is the ultimate person to which prayer and worship should be directed. The Son is Lord and Redeemer, and the Holy Spirit is the messenger and revealer of the Father and the Son. More useful stuff: Godhead

Thanks for clarifying. My thought: I'm not sure how to worship without prayer, or without singing prayers, as in a hymn or worship song. So perhaps LDS worship only the Father?

 

[spockrates]

It's kind of a same-difference neither-perfectly-fits type thing, and you'll see different LDS do things differently. Honestly, English we really don't have a good tense for multiple persons-who-are-one. Most common by far you'll just hear LDS people call Jesus Christ the Son of God in particular, or if general to all three "the Godhead".

If you want to go more in depth, here's a good 15 min sermon talking about the Godhead and each individual's role in (video:

or text The Godhead and the Plan of Salvation - By Elder Dallin H. Oaks)


No. Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Always capital S and G.

Thank you. Would you say, then the Godhead isn't God the Father, nor the Son of God, nor the Holy Ghost, but is instead a word describing the collective rule of the three Gods? That is, as nouns go, the noun Godhead isn't a person, it's a thing, because a group of persons is a thing?

 

[spockrates]

Yes, I would find that expression fine.

Then here's a simple question that might not be easy to answer: What is the what that God is? (I have a guess what the what might be, if you haven't thought about it before.)

Mormons believe that Jesus was created. As far as I know, they also believe that God the Father was created:

As man now is, God once was:
As God now is, man may be.​

Yes, I've heard that. Not sure of the origin of the quote nor its context, though.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Thanks for clarifying. My thought: I'm not sure how to worship without prayer, or without singing prayers, as in a hymn or worship song. So perhaps LDS worship only the Father?

Worship is also done via giving love, reverence, service, devotion, honoring and following. We definitely do those for Christ.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Thank you. Would you say, then the Godhead isn't God the Father, nor the Son of God, nor the Holy Ghost, but is instead a word describing the collective rule of the three Gods? That is, as nouns go, the noun Godhead isn't a person, it's a thing, because a group of persons is a thing?

Again, you're running into the problem that English doesn't really have a tense for multiple-persons-whom-are-one.

 

[spockrates]

Worship is also done via giving love, reverence, service, devotion, honoring and following. We definitely do those for Christ.

True that!

 

[REM]

Hi. I'm wondering about comparing the different concepts of what some call the Godhead. I'm not sure, but I believe many Latter Day Saints believe in a Triad. I know many Christians believe in a Trinity. I'm wondering what the logical or scriptural arguments are to support each, so that I might compare the two and make up my own mind.

Please let me know if you're a Mormon and whether you believe in the Trinity or not, so I don't have to ask. If you have time, describe or define your preferred doctrine, even if you're a trinitarian, as I've found Christians sometimes have different ideas about why the Trinity is.

I'm currently a Methodist, which makes me a trinitarian, but I'm not looking for some kind of debate and don't care to convince anyone but myself. I do tend to ask a lot of simple questions, but won't be offended if one doesn't have time to answer them. I realize this is a debate forum and have no problem with others using this discussion for that purpose. I think I'd benefit from reading the comments of both sides.

I Hope to have a thoughtful and personally helpful conversation.

I'm not concerned with cults and their opinions, that being said the reason it is important to have God's complete truth the KJV is the trinity:
1 John 5:7-8 (KJV)
"7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." (Note omitted from the Wescott and Hort Greek heretical texts, NIV, NAS.)

Genesis 1:26 (KJV)
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (Note "let us")


1 John 5:12 (KJV)
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. (you can't approach the Godhead except through Jesus.)

 

[tstor]

Incorrect. Here's a bunch of scriptures talking about His eternalness. God, Eternal Nature of

Sounds like you are not familiar with your own church.

Jesus works under the direction of the Father and is in complete harmony with Him. All mankind are His brethren and sisters, He being the eldest of the spirit children of Elohim. (Bible Dictionary)​

If Jesus is the "eldest of the spirit children of Elohim," then he was created just like us.

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visible,—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another. (King Follet Sermon , Joseph Smith)​

If God "was once as we are now" and is "an exalted man," then He was created just like us.

God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost constitute the Godhead. President Brigham Young taught the Latter-day Saints to worship God the Father and address prayers to Him in the name of Jesus Christ. He taught further that God the Father was once a man on another planet who “passed the ordeals we are now passing through; he has received an experience, has suffered and enjoyed, and knows all that we know regarding the toils, sufferings, life and death of this mortality” (DBY, 22). (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young)​

Again, if God the Father was "once a man on another planet" then He was created. In fact, Brigham Young explicitly states that God the Father experienced "mortality." So my statement still stands, the Mormons teach that both Jesus and the Father were created.

Then here's a simple question that might not be easy to answer: What is the what that God is? (I have a guess what the what might be, if you haven't thought about it before.)

You mean what is His essence? I do not believe that can be properly answered with our limited knowledge. But I am willing to listen to your ideas.

Yes, I've heard that. Not sure of the origin of the quote nor its context, though.

I got it off of LDS.org.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Yes, I've heard that. Not sure of the origin of the quote nor its context, though.

It is a non-doctrinal speculation that is not actively discussed in LDS church and any LDS person is free to disagree or agree or not care or not know and still be 100% in good standing.

 

[spockrates]

I'm not concerned with cults and their opinions, that being said the reason it is important to have God's complete truth the KJV is the trinity:
1 John 5:7-8 (KJV)
"7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one.

8 And there are three that bear witness in earth, the Spirit, and the water, and the blood: and these three agree in one." (Note omitted from the Wescott and Hort Greek heretical texts, NIV, NAS.)

Hi REM. In what way would you say the three are one?

Genesis 1:26 (KJV)
26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth. (Note "let us")

I could be wrong, but I think maybe Latter Day Saints believe the God the Father didn't make human beings on his own.

1 John 5:12 (KJV)
12 He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. (you can't approach the Godhead except through Jesus.)

Not sure Latter Day Saints would disagree.

 

[spockrates]

It is a non-doctrinal speculation that is not actively discussed in LDS church and any LDS person is free to disagree or agree or not care or not know and still be 100% in good standing.

Good to know. Thanks.

 

[JoeP222w]

Hi. I'm wondering about comparing the different concepts of what some call the Godhead. I'm not sure, but I believe many Latter Day Saints believe in a Triad. I know many Christians believe in a Trinity. I'm wondering what the logical or scriptural arguments are to support each, so that I might compare the two and make up my own mind.

Please let me know if you're a Mormon and whether you believe in the Trinity or not, so I don't have to ask. If you have time, describe or define your preferred doctrine, even if you're a trinitarian, as I've found Christians sometimes have different ideas about why the Trinity is.

I'm currently a Methodist, which makes me a trinitarian, but I'm not looking for some kind of debate and don't care to convince anyone but myself. I do tend to ask a lot of simple questions, but won't be offended if one doesn't have time to answer them. I realize this is a debate forum and have no problem with others using this discussion for that purpose. I think I'd benefit from reading the comments of both sides.

I Hope to have a thoughtful and personally helpful conversation.

I believe in the Trinity because it how God has revealed Himself. I follow Jesus Christ, by His grace.

Basic, but not exhaustive, definition of the Trinity (from James R. White, "The Forgotten Trinity"):

Within the one being that is God, there exists eternally three coequal and coeternal persons, namely, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.


The Trinity is described throughout the entirety of the Bible. Recommend reading "The Forgotten Trinity" by James R. White.

Mormonism reject the Trinity, because they are Polytheistic. Mormons reject Monotheism, because they believe that they become gods (i.e. Polytheism). Which is denial of the fundamental truth of Christianity, so when a Mormon claims to be Christian, they are being dishonest.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Sounds like you are not familiar with your own church.

With all do respect this comment is offensive and sounds very egotistical on your part. Honestly, it really get on my nerves when people try to "inform" other what they believe, so I'm going to keep my response here very brief.

Jesus works under the direction of the Father and is in complete harmony with Him. All mankind are His brethren and sisters, He being the eldest of the spirit children of Elohim. (Bible Dictionary)​

If Jesus is the "eldest of the spirit children of Elohim," then he was created just like us.

You appear to be approaching this with the idea that a mainstream Christian idea that a newborn baby didn't exist 12 months before then and somewhere in that 12 months was "created". That is not LDS doctrine. Here are some scripture verses (Premortal Life) and article explaining LDS views (What We Know about Premortal Life - New Era Feb. 2015 - new-era).

God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens! That is the great secret. If the veil were rent today, and the great God who holds this world in its orbit, and who upholds all worlds and all things by His power, was to make himself visible,—I say, if you were to see him today, you would see him like a man in form like yourselves in all the person, image, and very form as a man; for Adam was created in the very fashion, image and likeness of God, and received instruction from, and walked, talked and conversed with Him, as one man talks and communes with another. (King Follet Sermon , Joseph Smith)

God the Father, His Son Jesus Christ, and the Holy Ghost constitute the Godhead. President Brigham Young taught the Latter-day Saints to worship God the Father and address prayers to Him in the name of Jesus Christ. He taught further that God the Father was once a man on another planet who “passed the ordeals we are now passing through; he has received an experience, has suffered and enjoyed, and knows all that we know regarding the toils, sufferings, life and death of this mortality” (DBY, 22). (Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Brigham Young)​

​

These quote is not doctrine, not actively discussed in LDS church, and any LDS person is free to completely disagree with it and be 100% in good standing. If you want to learn what actually constitutes LDS doctrine, I recommend this source: Approaching Mormon Doctrine

I got it off of LDS.org.

You may also get coloring book pages off there. Doesn't mean that they are doctrine either.

 

[spockrates]

You mean what is His essence? I do not believe that can be properly answered with our limited knowledge. But I am willing to listen to your ideas.

OK. I believe my idea is logical, but it's only speculation:

It seems to me that God has three main types of attributes:

• Omniscience
• Omni-benevolence
• Omnipotence

Of these, two require a person to produce them. For a person has emotions and can love (omni-benevolence) and a person can have knowledge and wisdom (omniscience).

A thing, however, isn't a person. Since it isn't a person, it cannot reason, nor does it have any emotion. What a thing can have is power. An example is the sun of our solar system. It thinks no thoughts and feels no empathy, but it has great atomic power.

So if God is a thing in three persons, it seems logical to infer it is that which has omnipotence. The persons of God could logically be said to get their power from it, and use that power with wisdom and love, for they each have omniscience and omni-benevolence.

Just a thought. Not sure it it's a good one, nor anywhere near the reality of God. And if you were to say it's a crazy idea, I'd laugh and say you're probably right!

 

[Jane_Doe]

Within the one being that is God, there exists eternally three coequal and coeternal persons, namely, the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit.

LDS agree with these statements. As I explained earlier in this thread, the difference in the views *how* these three different persons are ONE.

The Trinity is described throughout the entirety of the Bible.

Are you able to cite me a verse which talks about the Father/Son/Spirit being one through a shared ousia?

 

[JoeP222w]

LDS agree with these statements. As I explained earlier in this thread, the difference in the views *how* these three different persons are ONE.

Are you able to cite me a verse which talks about the Father/Son/Spirit being one through a shared ousia?

Isaiah 43:10
Isaiah 44:6-8
Isaiah 45:21-22
Isaiah 40:13-18
Isaiah 40:21-28
John 1:1-18
Romans 9:5
Titus 2:13-14
Isaiah 9:6
Colossians 2:8-9
John 5:16-19
John 17:3-5
John 8:24
John 8:58
John 13:19
Colossians 1:15-17

 

[tstor]

You appear to be approaching this with the idea that a mainstream Christian idea that a newborn baby didn't exist 12 months before then and somewhere in that 12 months was "created". That is not LDS doctrine. Here are some scripture verses (Premortal Life) and article explaining LDS views (What We Know about Premortal Life - New Era Feb. 2015 - new-era).

I am fully aware of the Mormon's view of premortal life. However, that does not help you when it comes to the quote I provided. Premortal life does not entail an uncreated nature. For example, consider the following passage:

And every plant of the field before it was in the earth, and every herb of the field before it grew. For I, the Lord God, created all things, of which I have spoken, spiritually, before they were naturally upon the face of the earth. For I, the Lord God, had not caused it to rain upon the face of the earth. And I, the Lord God, had created all the children of men; and not yet a man to till the ground; for in heaven created I them; and there was not yet flesh upon the earth, neither in the water, neither in the air;

But I, the Lord God, spake, and there went up a mistfrom the earth, and watered the whole face of the ground.

And I, the Lord God, formed man from the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul, the first flesh upon the earth, the first man also; nevertheless, all things were before created; but spiritually were they created and made according to my word. (Moses 3:5-7)​

It seems quite clear to me that the Book of Moses teaches that all things were created "spiritually" by God according to His word. Correct me if I am wrong, but does the term "created" not imply a beginning? Or rather, a point prior to creation? So what does premortal existence really entail? Apparently, we were "intelligence" prior to our spiritual creation. However, only the "intelligence" is eternal. This is pronounced very clearly by Brigham Young:

Things were first created spiritually; the Father actually begat the spirits, and they brought forth and lived with Him. Then He commenced the work of creating earthly tabernacles, precisely as He had been created in this flesh himself, but partaking of the course material that was organized and composed this earth, until His system was charged with it, consequently the tabernacles of His children were organized from the coarse materials of this earth.

When the time came that His first-born, the Saviour, should come into the world and take a tabernacle, the Father came Himself and favoured that spirit with a tabernacle instead of letting any other man do it. The Saviour was begotten by the Father of His spirit, by the same Being who is the Father of our spirits, and that is all the organic difference between Jesus Christ and you and me. And a difference there is between out Father and us consists in that He has gained His exaltation, and has obtained eternal lives. (Journal of Discources)​

Could Mr. Young be any clearer?

These quote is not doctrine, not actively discussed in LDS church, and any LDS person is free to completely disagree with it and be 100% in good standing. If you want to learn what actually constitutes LDS doctrine, I recommend this source: Approaching Mormon Doctrine

A quote directly from Joseph Smith and Brigham Young about the very nature of God the Father can be false? Sounds rather suspicious. Especially for the case of Joseph Smith. Why would God allow Mr. Smith to prepare a sermon with false information?

You may also get coloring book pages off there. Doesn't mean that they are doctrine either.

I would assume they would not be false either.

 

[spockrates]

...

LDS agree with these statements. As I explained earlier in this thread, the difference in the views *how* these three different persons are ONE.

Hope you don't mind me interrupting. Do you mean they're one in a unified purpose, or is there another way they're one as well?

 

[Jane_Doe]

Isaiah 43:10
Isaiah 44:6-8
Isaiah 45:21-22
Isaiah 40:13-18
Isaiah 40:21-28
John 1:1-18
Romans 9:5
Titus 2:13-14
Isaiah 9:6
Colossians 2:8-9
John 5:16-19
John 17:3-5
John 8:24
John 8:58
John 13:19
Colossians 1:15-17

Again, which one of these talks about a shared ousia?