LDS Wondering About the Godhead and the Trinity

[spockrates]

Yes. But the underlying doctrine is always understood. They are only one in purpose, not in essence/substance.

Understood. So would you say the word God can sometimes mean a union, or perhaps a celestial government, or something similar?

EDIT: BTW, I'm not trying to trip you up or win some debate. Just wondering what your opinion is.

 

[Peter1000]

EDIT: It seems to me every attribite of trinitarian concept of God can be categorized as:

1. That which is omnipotent
2. That which is omniscient
3. That which is omni-benevolent

Of these, (2) and (3) are the traits of a person, not a thing. For a person can but a thing can't reason (2), and a person can but a thing can't feel emotions (3).

Of these, (1) is the only trait a thing can possess, because a thing can be powerful. For example, the sun of our solar system produces great atomic power

These are things I have not thought of. I am not a Trinitarian, and so I do not have to go through these gyrations to try to make sense of my belief system.

This seems to be very much a subjective personal search for answers about how the Holy Trinity works. It feels like entering a large black hole with no end and no concrete answers to cling to in order to come to an understanding of who God is.

So my suggestion is start looking at the Mormon way of thinking about God the Father and God the Son and God the HS. It is much simpler and much more intuitive. It makes perfect sense, at least to me and I think I can articulate through the nuances that exist much more effectively than the Trinitarian can maneuver through the mine fields of Trinity doctrine.

So if this is the only way you can make Trinitarinism work, it is an extremely complicated doctrine that is not even biblical.

 

[Peter1000]

Understood. So would you say the word God can sometimes mean a union, or perhaps a celestial government, or something similar?

EDIT: BTW, I'm not trying to trip you up or win some debate. Just wondering what your opinion is.

I'm not sure about the word 'union', unless you mean a unity of purpose. But a celestial government is OK.

Godhead is the biblical word that comes to my mind, rather than Trinity.

 

[spockrates]

...

I'm not sure about the word 'union', unless you mean a unity of purpose. But a celestial government is OK.

Godhead is the biblical word that comes to my mind, rather than Trinity.

Yes, a kind of spiritual rule of three persons--God the Father, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit. Would you say this "government" is a:

1. person made up of three persons, or
2. place made up of three persons, or
3. thing made up of three persons?

Which best defines a "government"?

 

[Jane_Doe]

...

Yes, a kind of spiritual rule of three persons--God the Father, the Son of God and the Holy Spirit. Would you say this "government" is a:

1. person made up of three persons, or
2. place made up of three persons, or
3. thing made up of three persons?

Which best defines a "government"?

In my thought, the nearest thing we mortals have to the unity experience by the Father, Son, Spirit, is the unity experienced in an perfect-perfect marriage/family. Even that analogy is a loooooooong way off (we simply can't think past our self-absorbed-sinful-habits), but it's a least headed in the right direction.

 

[spockrates]

In my thought, the nearest thing we mortals have to the unity experience by the Father, Son, Spirit, is the unity experienced in an perfect-perfect marriage/family. Even that analogy is a loooooooong way off (we simply can't think past our self-absorbed-sinful-habits), but it's a least headed in the right direction.

Yeah, maybe it's both and, instead of either or?

Even trinitarians say there's a close relationship between the Father, Son and Spirit, akin to a family, but also the three are in control of the earth, making sure the Father's will, will eventually be done.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Even trinitarians say there's a close relationship between the Father, Son and Spirit, akin to a family, but also the three are in control of the earth, making sure the Father's will, will eventually be done.

And LDS will readily agree with that.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Kiwi Christian--

I am feeling like you're not reading anything I'm posting, but are instead just interested in posting what you think I believe. If you're interested in listening and actually learning LDS beliefs, please indicate thus. If you're not interested in actually listening to me, please indicate thus.

Telling me honestly whether or not you are interested in listening will greatly improve both of our time usage.

*bump*
Kiwi Christian, could you please answer this question for me?

 

[spockrates]

And LDS will readily agree with that.

 

[spockrates]

I have to say I've enjoyed the conversation. Thanks to all who helped me think this through.

 

[NYCGuy]

I was the Mormon that accepted the idea that we are poytheistic. But you did not mention that I stipulated that although I can view our belief in a polytheistic way, it is not the same as the pagan Greek and Roman polytheistic mumbo jumbo.

Their gods are immoral, greedy, mischievous, fight each other, fornicate with each other, etc., etc., etc.

God the Father, God the Son, and God the HS are 3 separate Persons, but are so unified in Their purpose that it is as if They are one God.

It is of course, night and day different than pagan polytheism. Just to let you know.

Thank you, and I don't think I implied that I thought such a thing. I am simply going by the dictionary definition of polytheism.

 

[spockrates]

Thanks again to all who made this such an awesome discussion. Dudes! Gratitude!

So what I learned:

Some trinitarian Christians and some Latter Day Saints believe the word God, when not referring to a person, can mean a thing.

Those trinitarians who say this explain that the substance (or being) of God is a what (or thing) and the Father, Son and Holy Spirit of God are the who's (or persons). So God is one thing in three persons.

Those LDS who say this explain that the word God (or Godhead) can cometimes mean a group (e.g., unity, or celestial government, or ruling council) of the Father, the Son of God and the Holy Ghost. So the word God can sometimes mean three persons in one thing.

I guess my next task is to begin by seeing if any scriptures teach that God is one thing in three persons, or three persons in one thing. But that's another discussion!

 

[Ironhold]

Did you know your avatar or profile pic is from witchcraft and satanism?

His character image is actor Leonard Nemoy, most likely in the role of Spock from "Star Trek".

 

[Ironhold]

Mormons will deliberatly lie right off the bat.

...And you just lost most people who are interested in conversations without insults.

Best to go to their leaders and read what they say.

You do realize that most of your citations have no theological weight, correct?

 

[Ironhold]

“I have always declared God to be a distinct personage, Jesus Christ a separate and distinct personage from God the Father, and that the Holy Ghost was a distinct personage and a Spirit: and these three constitute three distinct personages and three Gods.”. joseph smith

Source?

Bruce McConkie states: "Three separate personages---Father, Son, and Holy Ghost---comprise the Godhead…As each of these persons is a God, it is evident from this standpoint alone, that a plurality of Gods exists. To us…these three are the only Gods we worship" (Mormon Doctrine, p.576-7).

Edition?

The work in question was *not* something done by the church, but by McConkie himself. As such, the first edition of the work contained much of his own personal theology rather than actual church theology. Later editions contained corrections made to deal with this.

As such, without an edition cited, most people who know the story won't bother with it.

"Our father in heaven, according to the Prophet, had a father, and since there has been a condition of this kind through all eternity, each Father had a Father" (Doctrines of Salvation, 2:47).

Not canonical.

Joseph Smith: " I will preach on the plurality of Gods. I have selected this text for that express purpose. I wish to declare I have always and in all congregations when I have preached on the subject of the Deity, it has been the plurality of Gods. It has been preached by the Elders for fifteen years."

Joseph Smith: "The head God organized the heavens and the earth. I defy all the world to refute me. In the beginning the heads of the Gods organized the heavens and the earth."

Sources?

Please, my friend, address these quotes.

Are you simply pulling this off of someone else's website? If so, then it's considered good form to credit that website.

This agian is a deceptive comment. Mormonism teaches not that you can become LIKE God, but that you can BECOME a God.

"god" vs. "God". This is a significant difference. Without understanding what it means, the rest of what's cited here is meaningless.

Mormonism teaches that Jesus started as a spirit baby of elohim and one of his goddess wives.

[citation needed]

The physical body of Jesus was, according to mormonism produced by natural, physical means between God the father and mary.

You do realize that "natural" can also mean parthenogenesis, right?

 

[Ironhold]

notice how the mormon girl

Word of advice: when debating online, it's best to mind one's terminology until one gets to know the other posters.

 

[Ironhold]

President Spencer W. Kimball [Mormon prophet in the mid 1970's] said in a general priesthood meeting: “Brethren, 225,000 of you are here tonight. I suppose 225,000 of you may become gods. There seems to be plenty of space out there in the universe. And the Lord has proved that he knows how to do it. I think he could make, or probably have us help make, worlds for all of us, for every one of us 225,000.". https://www.lds.org/general-confere...-privilege-of-holding-the-priesthood?lang=eng

This is about the only source you have that has official weight. If you're getting material from a canned list, you'd do well to examine the nature of that list.

That being said, did you follow the link and read the *entire* sermon from start to finish? Answer that one, and we can continue.

 

[Ironhold]

Seriously - you keep citing non-canonical sources as if they were canonical. How much independent research have you done on the topic?

A few items you have, such as "The Seer", are actually doctrinally unorthodox. Did you know that?

"The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints proclaims that Jesus Christ is the Son of God in the most literal sense. The body in which He performed His mission in the flesh was sired by that same Holy Being we worship as God, our Eternal Father. Jesus was not the son of Joseph, nor was He begotten by the Holy Ghost" (The Teachings of Ezra Taft Benson, pg.7).

This is about the only thing on here that might maybe be from a canonical source, and that's assuming you're reading from "Teachings Of The Presidents Of The Church: Ezra Taft Benson" and not some other work.

Have you actually read the chapter in full?

Teachings of Presidents of the Church: Ezra Taft Benson The Life and Ministry of Ezra Taft Benson

Carfred Broderick (Mormon author) writes: "God is a procreating personage of flesh and bone...latter-day prophets have made it clear that despite what it says in Matthew 1:20, the Holy Ghost was not the father of Jesus...The Savior was fathered by a personage of flesh and bone" (Dialogue: A Journal of Mormon Thought, Autumn, 1967, p.100-101).

This one clearly states that it's a journal. Did you miss this?

 

[Ironhold]

Come on, theres that deceitfulness again.

You know FULL WELL that a "prophet" does NOT have to say "thus saith the Lord".

...Which is why the church has a procedure in place for evaluating material and determining what is or is not to be accorded the weight of canon.

Did you not know this?

 

[spockrates]

Did you know your avatar or profile pic is from witchcraft and satanism?

Hi, Kiwi. Missed this post. Why do you say that?