LDS Wondering About the Godhead and the Trinity

[spockrates]

...Which is why the church has a procedure in place for evaluating material and determining what is or is not to be accorded the weight of canon.

Did you not know this?

Hi, Ironhold. Interesting user name.

Do you have a link to a site that lists the canonical books and perhaps even has online versions of them to search or download as PDF documents?

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Hi. I'm wondering about comparing the different concepts of what some call the Godhead. I'm not sure, but I believe many Latter Day Saints believe in a Triad. I know many Christians believe in a Trinity. I'm wondering what the logical or scriptural arguments are to support each, so that I might compare the two and make up my own mind.

Please let me know if you're a Mormon and whether you believe in the Trinity or not, so I don't have to ask. If you have time, describe or define your preferred doctrine, even if you're a trinitarian, as I've found Christians sometimes have different ideas about why the Trinity is.

I'm currently a Methodist, which makes me a trinitarian, but I'm not looking for some kind of debate and don't care to convince anyone but myself. I do tend to ask a lot of simple questions, but won't be offended if one doesn't have time to answer them. I realize this is a debate forum and have no problem with others using this discussion for that purpose. I think I'd benefit from reading the comments of both sides.

I Hope to have a thoughtful and personally helpful conversation.

They have their own Bible and so comparison is quite fruitless. They (Mormons) continue to add to the Bible via their appointed prophets. The discussion points you have are meaningful only to get their point of view. Please do a careful comparison with the Christian Bible.

 

[spockrates]

They have their own Bible and so comparison is quite fruitless. They (Mormons) continue to add to the Bible via their appointed prophets. The discussion points you have are meaningful only to get their point of view. Please do a careful comparison with the Christian Bible.

Thanks throughfireytrial. Do you have any Bible passages you think might be helpful?

 

[Ironhold]

Hi, Ironhold. Interesting user name.

Do you have a link to a site that lists the canonical books and perhaps even has online versions of them to search or download as PDF documents?

Everything that's officially accepted is on the church website: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

You've got the full canon of scriptures, the complete hymnals, the most recent Sunday school manuals, select previous Sunday school manuals, and an archive of official magazines that dates back to the 1970s. All you have to do is figure out the latest site update (seems whoever they have running it favors form over function) and poke about.

 

[disciple1]

Hi. I'm wondering about comparing the different concepts of what some call the Godhead. I'm not sure, but I believe many Latter Day Saints believe in a Triad. I know many Christians believe in a Trinity. I'm wondering what the logical or scriptural arguments are to support each, so that I might compare the two and make up my own mind.

Please let me know if you're a Mormon and whether you believe in the Trinity or not, so I don't have to ask. If you have time, describe or define your preferred doctrine, even if you're a trinitarian, as I've found Christians sometimes have different ideas about why the Trinity is.

I'm currently a Methodist, which makes me a trinitarian, but I'm not looking for some kind of debate and don't care to convince anyone but myself. I do tend to ask a lot of simple questions, but won't be offended if one doesn't have time to answer them. I realize this is a debate forum and have no problem with others using this discussion for that purpose. I think I'd benefit from reading the comments of both sides.

I Hope to have a thoughtful and personally helpful conversation.

Since you mentioned Mormons, the believe Jesus came to the USA after death and had 12 more disciples, let me show you that's false, you can still be a disciple of Christ.
John chapter 8 verse 31,32
To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, " If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
Now for what I think you asked.
God is Jesus, and God is the holly spirit.
As it says in John chapter 1 verse 1
In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God.
In verse 14
Speaking of Jesus it say the word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

And at another time the holy spirit came upon Mary and she was, with child.

 

[Ironhold]

They have their own Bible and so comparison is quite fruitless. They (Mormons) continue to add to the Bible via their appointed prophets. The discussion points you have are meaningful only to get their point of view. Please do a careful comparison with the Christian Bible.

If you'll check the link I gave, you'll see that the church uses the King James Version as the Bible.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Thanks throughfireytrial. Do you have any Bible passages you think might be helpful?

Passages on the Trinity: three persons, yet one...
John 1:4...as mentioned (Jesus always was and Jesus, the Word, is God)
John 10:30...the Father and Jesus are one
I Corinthians 2:12: The Spirit is One with the Father and Son
I Corinthians 6:19: The Spirit sent by God and dwells in us
I Corinthians 12:3
II Corinthians 5:5
Put all those together...there is a much lengthier list...but the following passage lays out the Godhead quite clearly for us...
Isaiah 9:6-7:
For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Of the greatness of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty
will accomplish this.

The Son is of course Jesus, look at His other names...Mighty God and Everlasting Father [so Father and Son are indeed one] Wonderful Counselor [the name of the Holy Spirit, so the Holy Spirit is one with Christ as well] and Christ will reign forever...He is God.
There are more passages just ask again after digesting these and maybe still come up short on the Trinity.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

If you'll check the link I gave, you'll see that the church uses the King James Version as the Bible.

Oh yes, tricky though...it is not considered a closed cannon by Mormons as it is by Christians. (Which is what I said.)

 

[spockrates]

Everything that's officially accepted is on the church website: The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints

You've got the full canon of scriptures, the complete hymnals, the most recent Sunday school manuals, select previous Sunday school manuals, and an archive of official magazines that dates back to the 1970s. All you have to do is figure out the latest site update (seems whoever they have running it favors form over function) and poke about.

Sweet! Dude! Thanks!

 

[spockrates]

Since you mentioned Mormons, the believe Jesus came to the USA after death and had 12 more disciples, let me show you that's false, you can still be a disciple of Christ.
John chapter 8 verse 31,32
To the Jews who had believed him, Jesus said, " If you hold to my teaching, you are really my disciples. Then you will know the truth, and the truth will set you free.
Now for what I think you asked.
God is Jesus, and God is the holly spirit.
As it says in John chapter 1 verse 1
In the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God.
In verse 14
Speaking of Jesus it say the word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

And at another time the holy spirit came upon Mary and she was, with child.

Thanks, disciple1

 

[spockrates]

Passages on the Trinity: three persons, yet one...
John 1:4...as mentioned (Jesus always was and Jesus, the Word, is God)
John 10:30...the Father and Jesus are one
I Corinthians 2:12: The Spirit is One with the Father and Son
I Corinthians 6:19: The Spirit sent by God and dwells in us
I Corinthians 12:3
II Corinthians 5:5
Put all those together...there is a much lengthier list...but the following passage lays out the Godhead quite clearly for us...
Isaiah 9:6-7:
For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Of the greatness of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty
will accomplish this.

The Son is of course Jesus, look at His other names...Mighty God and Everlasting Father [so Father and Son are indeed one] Wonderful Counselor [the name of the Holy Spirit, so the Holy Spirit is one with Christ as well] and Christ will reign forever...He is God.
There are more passages just ask again after digesting these and maybe still come up short on the Trinity.

Fascinating! Calling the babe of the Christmas story Father is surprising to me. Shouldn't he be called Everlasting Son, instead?

 

[spockrates]

Oh yes, tricky though...it is not considered a closed cannon by Mormons as it is by Christians. (Which is what I said.)

So I'm curious. Please explain why you believe a closed canon is superior.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Fascinating! Calling the babe of the Christmas story Father is surprising to me. Shouldn't he be called Everlasting Son, instead?

No, because Jesus is the Son and is the Everlasting Father...they are one. To say Jesus was the Everlasting Son would perhaps infer that He never was eternal God when if fact God became man and at that point is named the Son.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

So I'm curious. Please explain why you believe a closed canon is superior.

God gave us a closed cannon...the Bible...to live by and to be saved by and we are instructed in the cannon of the Bible not to go beyond what is written...in other word add one's own words to live by...many times they contradict the original. Jesus in talking with the Pharisees confronts them for their additions and points out how they then negate the Scriptures. So it is superior because it is God's Word and it is superior because it holds the keys to eternal life which adding to them only serves to weaken them.

 

[Ironhold]

God gave us a closed cannon...the Bible...to live by and to be saved by and we are instructed in the cannon of the Bible not to go beyond what is written...

[citation needed]

 

[Ironhold]

Sweet! Dude! Thanks!

Some critics of the church often claim that things like this are kept hidden, while others go out of their way to avoid using material that's actually got canonical weight.

The existence of the website exposes them both as not providing the correct information.

 

[throughfiierytrial]

[citation needed]

II John 1:9; I Corinthians 4:6

 

[Jane_Doe]

Passages on the Trinity: three persons, yet one...
John 1:4...as mentioned (Jesus always was and Jesus, the Word, is God)
John 10:30...the Father and Jesus are one
I Corinthians 2:12: The Spirit is One with the Father and Son
I Corinthians 6:19: The Spirit sent by God and dwells in us
I Corinthians 12:3
II Corinthians 5:5
Put all those together...there is a much lengthier list...but the following passage lays out the Godhead quite clearly for us...
Isaiah 9:6-7:
For to us a child is born,
to us a son is given,
and the government will be on his shoulders.
And he will be called
Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,
Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.
Of the greatness of his government and peace
there will be no end.
He will reign on David’s throne
and over his kingdom,
establishing and upholding it
with justice and righteousness
from that time on and forever.
The zeal of the Lord Almighty
will accomplish this.

The Son is of course Jesus, look at His other names...Mighty God and Everlasting Father [so Father and Son are indeed one] Wonderful Counselor [the name of the Holy Spirit, so the Holy Spirit is one with Christ as well] and Christ will reign forever...He is God.
There are more passages just ask again after digesting these and maybe still come up short on the Trinity.

Do you have a verse describing the HOW the Father,, Son, and Spirit are one through a shared substance- the central connecting point of the Trinity?

 

[throughfiierytrial]

Do you have a verse describing the HOW the Father,, Son, and Spirit are one through a shared substance- the central connecting point of the Trinity?

Job 38:1-21:
Then the Lord spoke to Job out of the storm. He said:
2 “Who is this that obscures my plans
with words without knowledge?
3 Brace yourself like a man;
I will question you,
and you shall answer me.
4 “Where were you when I laid the earth’s foundation?
Tell me, if you understand.
5 Who marked off its dimensions? Surely you know!
Who stretched a measuring line across it?
6 On what were its footings set,
or who laid its cornerstone—
7 while the morning stars sang together
and all the angels shouted for joy?

8 “Who shut up the sea behind doors
when it burst forth from the womb,
9 when I made the clouds its garment
and wrapped it in thick darkness,
10 when I fixed limits for it
and set its doors and bars in place,
11 when I said, ‘This far you may come and no farther;
here is where your proud waves halt’?

12 “Have you ever given orders to the morning,
or shown the dawn its place,
13 that it might take the earth by the edges
and shake the wicked out of it?
14 The earth takes shape like clay under a seal;
its features stand out like those of a garment.
15 The wicked are denied their light,
and their upraised arm is broken.

16 “Have you journeyed to the springs of the sea
or walked in the recesses of the deep?
17 Have the gates of death been shown to you?
Have you seen the gates of the deepest darkness?
18 Have you comprehended the vast expanses of the earth?
Tell me, if you know all this.

19 “What is the way to the abode of light?
And where does darkness reside?
20 Can you take them to their places?
Do you know the paths to their dwellings?
21 Surely you know, for you were already born!
You have lived so many years!...

(But read on in Job ...You understand me, I hope.)

 

[spockrates]

God gave us a closed cannon...the Bible...to live by and to be saved by and we are instructed in the cannon of the Bible not to go beyond what is written...in other word add one's own words to live by...many times they contradict the original. Jesus in talking with the Pharisees confronts them for their additions and points out how they then negate the Scriptures. So it is superior because it is God's Word and it is superior because it holds the keys to eternal life which adding to them only serves to weaken them.

@throughfireytrial :

Yeah, I hear what you're saying, and I'm firmly convinced the Bible is the word of God. But think about it: Although the Bible has pieces of the puzzle for the Trinity, it doesn't contain the completed puzzle, I think.

To get the whole picture, doesn't one need the missing pieces added after the closing of the canon?