Okay - next passage.
I maintain that this passage in I Timothy moves from speaking to and about different groups. I Timothy 2:1-7 speaks to all believes. Verse 8 is for the men. 8-10 are to the women. 11-15a is to a woman (note the change from the plural to the singular), and 15b goes back to the plural, so it is meant for all the women.
I want to deal with this crazy logic you have got going on here. Just as a side note you cant prove anything with
Rom 16:7 that you could use as proof for a Junias being a women or an apostle. You can come up with all the theories you want but there just isnt enough evidence to boldly make your claim. Now I disagree with your break down above. I am sure its a typo but you state that vrs 8 is for them men then you include verse 8 as talking to the women. I certainly dont agree with your 11-15 analogy. I will talk about that more.
First, we have to understand what the previous words says. Ephesus was a moral wasteland. The church was in serious trouble. Paul says that this was a time of great opportunity - a time to pray. He gives them four different words for prayer in verse 2:2. No one is excuded from making such prayers. Of interest is Paul's use of the word for quiet - "hesuchios" which we will see again. Paul urged prayer not just so that believers could live peacable lives, but becayse they should feel what God feels and want what He wants.
Next thing to note: Paul uses the word anthropos (the gender-inclusive word meaning "person" or "human" for the first seven verses. As someone who I assume is an Arminian, I am sure Cougan would agree that God wants all people to be saved - this is the core of the gospel message.
In verse 8, Timothy uses aner, so this is specific. They were to pray without anger or disputing.
The next two verses deal with the entire woman population: Paul wanted them to dress modestly, with decency and propriaty, but with good deeds. (This brings up the question - do people wear jewelry in your church? Is this not wrong according to this passage?) He connects the two sentences with the word "likewise" (hosautos ), showing not that they are different, but that they are the same. Paul wanted both of them to pray and live lives that were separate from the rest of the culture.
I agree with what you have said in this part. This affirms that men are to lead prayer in church and not the women. The women are to pray as well as they pray with the man that is leading the prayer. In commenting up on vrs 8 THe Expositors Greek Testment observes: "The ministers of public prayer must be men of the congregation, not the women" (IV, P. 106)
Next, we come to the passage in question. Paul specifically states this:
The woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit the woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But she will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.
Note that verse 15, especially says "she" and not "they!" The context suggests strongly that Paul had a certain person in mind! Paul did this in Titus as well - calls out an unnamed person causing dissention.
In fact, reading the passage, we do not see any command of this being applied to all women - only this one, singular woman, who was spreading heresy in the church!
And read again what I wrote about that. Paul shifts his case, from plural to singular - from dealing with all of the women to dealing with "the" woman. What Strongs has to say is irrelevant. What you are not considering is the case of the word and its relevance. That is why your use of this Scripture is invalid. It ignores Paul's specific use of the singular and plural uses of the word for woman.
Here is where you try and do you little dance and try add your own little twist to these verses because you have to. If these verses 11-15 are talking about women in general and not a specific women then your whole arguement crumbles. Verses 8-15 are discussing the different roles of men and women in the church. Your arguement is almost laughable yet very sad at the same time. You claim that that because the word "women" in vrs 11 and 12 is singular that somehow is stateing that ONE PATICULAR WOMEN in that church was being refered to. This view of yours is so filled with errors.
First of all there is nothing in the context here that would justify the topic being changed from women to a paticular women.
2nd If a paticuar women was in mind it seems to me she would of been named.
3rd lets take a look at a few verses where "a women" is singular and lets see if it has in mind that its only talking about ONE PATICULAR WOMEN.
Matthew 5:28 "But I say to you that whoever looks at a woman (singular) to lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart.
What women? Which women?
1 Corinthians 7:1 Now concerning the things of which you wrote to me: It is good for a man not to touch a woman(singular).
Touch what women? Which women?
1 Corinthians 11:13 Judge among yourselves. Is it proper for a
woman (singular) to pray to God with her head uncovered?
What women? Which women?
1 Corinthians 11:6 For if a woman(singular) is not covered, let her also be shorn. But if it is shameful for a woman (singular) to be shorn or shaved, let her be covered.
What women? Which women?
All of these are in the singular and they do not have a specific women in mind but it applies to all women just like it does in 1 tim 2:11-12.
4th The bible confirms without a doubt that this is not talking about a partiuclar women. First lets look at the text under question.
11 Let a woman learn in silence with all submission.
12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority
over a man, but to be in silence.
13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve.
14 And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being
deceived, fell into transgression.
15 Nevertheless she will be saved in childbearing if they
continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control.
In vrs 11 what women? Any women. vrs 12 What women? Any women. Now verse 13 gives us an idea that it is not speaking about just one women. Does it really make sense that if this was just one women that he would say I want this one women to learn in silence and not to teach or have authorty of man. HOW COME PAUL? Because Adam was formed first then EVE AND Adam was not deceived but the women was.... This is some explanation for why the ONE little lady could not teach have authorty over a man now isnt it. Your view on this is just does'nt work. Paul goes back to the Adam and Eve and points out that Man was made first and that Eve was the first to sin. Do you not remember what God told the women in Gen.
Genesis 3:16 Unto the woman he said, I will greatly multiply thy sorrow and thy conception; in sorrow thou shalt bring forth children; and thy desire shall be to thy husband, and he shall rule over thee.
But probably the biggest blow to your whole arguement is the fact that the following verses support and agree with the verses in 1Tim.
1cor 14:34 Let your women keep silent in the churches, for they are not permitted to speak; but they are to be submissive, as thelaw also says.
35 And if they want to learn something, let them ask their
own husbands at home; for it is shameful for women to speak
in church.
I love how the bible clearly interprets itself. Scott I will deal with your other statements you have made latter. But this post on this verse brings the walls down of all your arguements. Surely even you can clearly see this.
Cougan