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Women in Mininstry: A Debate

Discussion in 'Christianity and World Religion' started by ScottEmerson, Feb 15, 2003.

  1. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson I Like Traffic Lights

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    Hello, all! This debate is for the purposes of those for and against ministry for women in today's Church. Now, I'd like to set up some "ground rules" in order that this goes smoothly.

    1. My first post is going to be a summary of my thoughts on what the Word says about women and the a focus on some of the "difficult" posts. Cougan, who has agreed to take the contrary position, I would ask to do the same. After these are done, then we can begin debate. All those who wish to join in are more than welcome to do so (after all, this is a public bulletin board, right?)

    2. Okay, so I only had one point. Ah well...
     
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  2. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson I Like Traffic Lights

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    It is my position that in Christ, there is no male or female, and that we as a Church tend to exclude women from ministry, rather than include them in the Work that God would have us do. I maintain that a woman can be a leader of the Church and is not in anyway subservient to a man - according to the Word of God.

     

    1. Let us understand that a large group of Christ's closest friends were women. They were the first he revealed himself to. He went out of his way to welcome them and treat them as equals. (Mark 7:24 30; 14:3-9; Luke 10:38 42;John 4:27-42; 11:17-27; 20:16-18) He provided unprecedented respect and honor to a group that was socially incredibly, incredibly marginalized.

    2. Paul agreed with this, as he stated that "in Christ, there is no male or female." In this statement he provides for absolute equality among the sexes.

    3. Peter said that one of the prophesies that was fulfilled at Pentecost was that men and women would be prophesying. (Acts 2:17-18). I Corithians 11:5 and 13 also shows women prophesying - showing that women did, indeed, have the responsibility to speak and lead in church.

    4. Now that we see that women can prophesy, are there specific instances of women leading and teaching? A case study concerning Aquila shows us plenty. She went on a missionary trip (Acts 18:18), she taught the Gentiles the way of the one true God (Acts 18:26), she was called a fellow worker by Paul in Romans 16, and she was either a pastor or a deacon at the church that she held at her house (I Corinthians 16).

    5. How about the role of deacon? Romans 16:1-2 specifically calls Phoebe a deaconess, who not only served as a deacon to many people, but to Paul himself!

    6. And what about the role of apostle (what some would consider pastor nowadays, though I am aware that not all do). Romans 16:7 says quite simply that Junia, a woman, was a fellow apostle in prison with Paul! Philippians 4:3 insinuates the same - that women served as apostles, just as Paul and Clement.

    7. Concerning pastors - the head of the earthly church, one need only to read 2 John 1:1 and 2 for evidence of this. John was writing to a woman who was the "elder" (or bishop, or pastor) of the church! Read the entire book with that in mind, and so, so much will begin to make sense to you!

    8. It is because of these evidences of the Biblical positions of women, that we must understand some of the "harder" texts within the context of a culture where women were seen below a male slave in many instances.

    I Corithinans 11:3-12 calls man "the head" of woman. I maintain that kephale can and should be translated as source, or origen, instead of authority. This fits the context of 11:3 and 11:12.

    I Corinthians 14:34 - this seems to be a very hard verse for my position. However, when we examine the other evidence, it seems that women's silence should be understood differently. Pehaps the Corinth church had women who were disrupting the service by talking. The way I understand it (in the context) is that women were disrupting the service by asking questions. This would lead into the next verse, where Paul says that if anyone has a questoin, she should ask her husband at home. Understand how radical an idea even this was... that a woman could learn! This did not happen outside of the Church in this time!

    II Timothy 2:11-15 - Paul obviously recognizes the ministry of women. The question is this: "Is this a 'woman can never teach' statement or is this specifically designed for Timothy's church?" Timothy's church did have woman problems (I Timothy 2:9 and 5:13, and II Timothy 3:6). Because of these problems, and because of Paul's previous statements about the legitimacy of a woman speaking, leading, and such, it would seem that this statement is not normative, but an exception to an exceptional church.

     

    So, here's my part of the debate for now. Let's go!
     
  3. Brain Damage

    Brain Damage Generally Medicated

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    Hi Scott , your right about the bible saying women should not teach , but that was 2000 yrs ago and the bible was incomplete .

    Today of course we have the complete word of God and there is no reason why anyone male or female would need to teach people anything .

    Today we can learn by reading the bible . That's my view anyway .
     
  4. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson I Like Traffic Lights

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    Read closer - I never said that the Bible says for women not to teach. That's what I'm trying to refute. That women are not to teach in the church.
     
  5. fragmentsofdreams

    fragmentsofdreams Critical loyalist

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    A close reading of Paul's letters will reveal that Paul's ministry had many women in important positions. It was only later that ministry was reserved only for men.
     
  6. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

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    Ok Scott I will follow your rules in this debate and I will first briefly state my thoughts on this matter. I believe that the bible teaches that man and women are equal in the site of God in that a man is not better that a women and women is not better than a man. All of mankind can have salvation and their souls are all important to God. The bible also teaches that there are different roles between women and men. This by no means that a women is lesser than a man but it simply how God laid out his plan. Now please let it be understood that I am  stating my position and I will not be addressing everything that Scott has set forth in this post in great detail.

    1. First of all I would just like to say that I have the highest respect for women and in no way am I trying to say they are lesser than a man. Even under the old law one was to honor their mother Exod 20:12.  Husbands are to love their wives as Christ loved the church Eph 5:25. You will find that it is women who are the one who seem to always be ready for a good work. Unfortunately today men want to do as little as possible and it hard to get them motivated to do things. Women are great encouragers and motivators. Now this is not always the case about men but it seems to be that way a lot. Women was created as a helper for man Gen 2:18,20 ; 1cor 11:8,9  ; 1tim 2:13. We see that man is the head of the women just like God is the head of Christ. 1cor 11:3. Just like Christ subjection to the Father involved no deprivation of dignity  (Phil. 2:5-11) so there is none in womens subjection to man.

    2. When the bible says there is no male or female in Christ this is in regards to obtaining salvation. Both man and women are heirs to the grace of life. 1peter 3:7, Gal 3:28. One could argue if there is neither male or female in Christ a man could marry a man and it would be ok because the are not really a male or female. Again this is simply stating the equality we have in obtaining salvation.

    3,4. Indeed women did prophesy in the NT as Philip 4 daughters did acts 21:9. But Paul limited how women were to teach or prophesy in 1 Timothy 2:12 And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence. So a women cannot teach a man in way where she would assume authority over him. Certainly women may teach (***. 2:3-5); they may, in certain ways, even teach men. There is a reciprocal teaching in singing (Col. 3:16), and privately, in conjunction with her husband, Priscilla was involved in teaching Apollos (Acts 18:26). But a woman may not assume the position of teacher, with the man subordinated to the role of student, without violating a New Testament command.

    5. The word diakonos simply means a servant (Matt. 23:11; Jon. 2:5, etc.), and any official attachment to the term must be demanded by the context, as in Philippians 1:1 and 1 Timothy 3:8.12

    The fact that the saints were encouraged to assist Phoebe did not imply her authority over them. The Greek word paristerni meant to come to the aid of, help, stand by. When Paul said, the Lord stood by (pareste) me (2 Tim. 4:17), he certainly was not asserting that he exercised authority over Christ!

    The word prostatis (helper) does not necessitate oversight. If so, then Phoebe exercised authority over Paul, for she had been his helper as well as others!

    Besides all this just like elders deacons are to be husbands of 1 wife titus 2:12. A woman can not be a husband of one wife.

    6.
    In Philippians 4:2, 3, Paul comments that Euodia and Syntyche labored with him in the gospel; he calls them, along with others, his fellow workers.
    Again, the assumption is made that this necessitates an authoritarian position comparable to the apostle's. However, Christians are said to be God's fellow workers (1 Cor. 3:9); obviously, this does not suggest that we are authorized to act as deity! Countless Christian ladies have assisted gospel preachers in numerous ways without ever having become public preachers themselves.

    It is said that Junia (KJV), a woman, was an apostle and thus certainly occupied a place of authority in the primitive church (Rom. 16:7).
    In the first place, in the Greek text the name is Junian (in the accusative case the gender of the name not evident); it could either be Junia (feminine), or more likely, Junias (masculine). Origin, a writer of the third century A.D., considered it a reference to a man.

    But secondly, it is not even certain that Junias is here identified as an apostle. The phrase of note among the apostles (ASV) is rendered by Zahn as "famed, mentioned with honor in the circle of the apostles", giving the sense of being well known by the apostles, rather than actually being an apostle.

    In the third place, the word apostle is used occasionally in the Bible in a nontechnical sense to denote a messenger. Jesus says that one sent (apostolos) is not greater than the sender (Jno. 13:16). The word need not imply one who has dominion over another, nor even a preacher.

    7. Do you not realize that in 2John 1:1 that the elder mentioned there is the writer of the letter? It is not calling the lady the elder. Again its easy to see that an elder must be the husband (which specifically refers to a man) of one wife. The word only authorizes men to be elders and not women. If a women could be an elder this mean she would have authority over the man which the word specifically forbids 1Tim 2:12. The same would keep a women from being a preacher when men are present and leading prayer or leading singing. If there was a ladies gathering with no men then there would be nothing wrong with a women to preach, lead prayer, or lead singing. Just as a side note many are confused today and think that the preacher is the pastor. This simple is not true. A pastor, Shepard, elder, bishop, and Presbyterian are all the same thing and there were always more than one in each church. The preacher can be one of the elders but the majority of the time they are just the teacher/preacher who do not serve the role of an elder. If someone is interested in this just let me know and I can show you from the bible that this is true.

    8.I'm not really sure where you get your idea of the head meaning origin but one thing I do know it seems to me that if you apply this meaning to this word you would have to also say that God is the origin or Christ which would mean that Christ was created. I'm sure the JW would applaud you for such an argument. Even though Jesus had all power given to him but we find that the Father is not under subjection to Jesus 1Cor 15:27. As I have briefly talked about there are reasons why the man is the head over women. First man was created first. 2nd women was made as helper to man. Third Eve was the first to sin and then tempted the man to sin. The man is suppose to be the head over the women but this does not mean some sort of dictatorship because the man is to love the women as himself and if he truly does this will be a beautiful relationship but the women should respect the final decision the man makes on different things. The man should also consider closely what the woman wants and is concerned about.

    Now in regards to 1Cor 14:34 I can see why this would be an obstacle for you. the greek word for silence in this verse is siago. This word never did demand an absolute, unqualified silence. Rather, the nature of the silence is determined by the context.

    Now to 1 Corinthians 14. The verb sigao is used three times in this chapter.

    One who has the gift of tongues is to keep silence if he has no interpreter to use with his alien audience (28). If a brother is speaking, and another receives a more current revelation, the former is to keep silence (30). Finally, women are to keep silence (34).

    The first two prohibitions demand silence only in the matters being discussed. They do not forbid these men to otherwise speak consistent with their divine obligations.

    This does not demand that a woman be absolutely silent at church. Rather, in harmony with what the apostle taught elsewhere (1 Tim. 2:12), the woman is not to speak or teach in any way that violates her gender role. She is not to occupy the position of a public teacher, in such a capacity as to stand before the church and function as the teacher (or co-teacher) of a group containing adult men. In assuming this official capacity, she has stepped beyond her authorized sphere, and she violates scripture.

    By the way I know its just a typo but its 1 tim 2:11-15. These verse say exactly what I have saying all along in the above statements. I believe it to be a twist to try and just apply it to one church. I believe verse 15 just to be one example of what a women would be doing in her role. Women bear children and take care of the household Titus  2:3-5 1tim 5:14. There is nothing wrong with a women working outside of the home and contributing to the household but she should not let it get in the way of taking care of the household. Yes the man if he loves his wife as himself should help his wife in this role but it the primary role of the women. Women can do many good works for the Lord and lead people to Christ but God set forth in his word differing roles for the man and for the women. This same thing hold true to differing roles with in the church. Rom 12:4, 1cort 12:12-27. Just because our customs may change the word of God does not. I hope this post is of benefit to someone.

    God Bless,
    Cougan

     

     

     

     
     
  7. Auntie

    Auntie THANK YOU JESUS!!

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    Auntie is in agreement with Cougan, on this issue.:)
     
  8. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson I Like Traffic Lights

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    I will address many of these tomorrow when I have more time. I'd like some specificity if you get a chance, so I understand exactly where you stand...

    But before - a very, very large bit of your post was literally copied from Wayne Jackson's article "Should We Have Women Preachers" - either http://www.christiancourier.com/feature/june2000.htm or http://www.ladiesagainstfeminism.org/articles/shouldwomenpreach.htm

    I thought we had talked about plagarizing. That's cool, but I wish you would please, please, please document your sources, especially when it is as word-for-word as this.

    So you state that women are subject to men?

    Okay - let us clarify, because here is what I am reading: Women may in certain ways teach men, but she cannot take the position of teacher? This is confusing to me, If Priscilla taught Apollos, how was Apollos not a student?

    So when does Paul use diakonos in an unofficial manner? It seems from his use of it, that he means a specific "deacon" in each of his uses. (http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/1045371763-2659.html)

    The word used for succorer is parastasis, which from Strongs is "

    1. a woman set over others 

    2. a female guardian, protectress, patroness, caring for the affairs of others and aiding them with her resources"


    <P class=lex1>That would appear to me that she was set over others, including Paul.


    <P class=lex1>
    <P class=lex1>I don't know what Titus 2:12 has to do with anything... But a question - are unmarried men allowed to be ministers? What about widowers? Are we being faithful to the text if we allow them to be ministers, when they are not "a husband with one wife?" Just wondering for clarity's sake. What does this say about Paul, who was not married at the time? (He was once, of course, as his position as a Pharisee required. Not too many people know that...)

    <P class=lex1>Can you provide a reference for&nbsp;Origen's saying she was a man? I've found on the internet claims that Origen stated&nbsp;Junia was a woman. &nbsp;From McDonnell's "A Woman Apostle"


    <P class=lex1>
    So my evidence of Junia is different from yours - do you have any sources from Origen?

    You use Greek often - do you think this fits with a proper hermeneutic?


    In the context of the letter, including verses four and five, do you not see that the lady was the head of the church?

    So, you see, before I begin going out there and refuting all this, I need some clarification please. (Oh, and use references - those would be great...)
     
  9. seebs

    seebs God Made Me A Skeptic

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    I would like to address the issue of the 1 Corinthians quotes, because someone, in a debate about this issue, made the most fascinating observation:

    There is a recurring pattern throughout 1 Corinthians of "difficult" verses - ones we find hard to reconcile with modern concepts of equality - followed immediately by verses which, taken at face value, simply flatly contradict them!

    Let's try reading 1 Cor 14:34-39 as they might have appeared on a BBS:

    In this sample posting, you see, Paul is *correcting* the beliefs of the church at Corinth. Throughout 1 Corinthians, we see this pattern; a firm commandment that women cover their heads when praying, followed immediately by a lecture on why they don't have to. The claim that woman is of man, followed shortly by the refutation that man is by woman...

    In short, I think this passage actually shows unambiguously that Paul expected women to teach and lead if they were called. To someone who said otherwise, he reacted with simple outrage: "What? Came the word of God out from you? Or came it unto you only?"

    Just as, today, when arguing with a reactionary, one might sarcastically ask that worthy if he knew why God was telling him things that have never been shared with anyone else, Paul was deriding the folks at Corinth for trying to impose their cultural beliefs on God - who transcends them. "Forbid not to speak in tongues", indeed.
     
  10. Job_38

    Job_38 <font size="1"> In perfect orbit they have circled

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    It depends on what you say by meaning ministry. Any Christian has a ministry, it is the Great Commission.
     
  11. Job_38

    Job_38 <font size="1"> In perfect orbit they have circled

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    Let me ask this:


    What is it that you all are doing right now, how is it spreading Gods Word, Love, and His Gospel?

    Not just a thought for you, but for me as well.
     
  12. gdp

    gdp New Member

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    As I have studied this issue of women in ministry I am struck by the idea that as the percentage of women in the workforce increases so does the percentage of women in leadersip until it reaches 50 percent. Then at that point it goes down. In societies where the women do all the work 100 percent of the leaders are men. Where all the men work 100 percent of the leaders are men. In societies where 50 percent of the workforce is women so is 50 percent of the leadership. I find this interesting. Is that from God or what?
     
  13. cougan

    cougan Senior Member

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    Yes Scott you quibbled about it and I at one point got tired of hearing about it and listed all my sources in another thread. I have told you I don't find it necessary to list my sources when I am posting on this open thread. I took about 3 hrs for me to compose my first post in here and yes some of it was cut and past from Wayne Jackson (a wonderful writter). If I have writtings on the very subject at hand I will cut and paste. I could put into my own words but I just wanted to save time and I completely agree with what they say. I just wrote a paper based off of our last debate to hand out to others. Guess what, at the end of my paper I listed all the sources I used and I belive that it should be done for something like that but not for on here.

    1peter 3:1 Wives are in subjection to their husbands. Women in the church are in subjection to the men. This is similar to christians being in subjection to the elders. We all serve under Christ the head.

    First you must understand that her husband was there with her they both taught Apollos. They took him to the side privately they did not do it publically. A women can teach a man and lead him to Christ but she should not put her self in a postion where she has authority over him like would be the case if a women preached a message from the word of God to a church that had both men and women in it.

    I thought this was answered in my last post.

    We are not told how she aided Paul nor how she aided others. This does not mean that she served some sort of office as deconess nor does this imply that she was in charge of or set over Paul in some sort of authortative way but she was a wonderful women who was servant to the church and aided or broght relied not only to Paul but others that were around her. What a wonder character Phobe had.

     
  14. seangoh

    seangoh Veteran

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    hmm......both of you have raised up good points...and i find cougan's facts hold more weight....however there are some points that i don't agree with.....same goes for Scott.....i'll be posting my views later in the debate...meanwhile i gotta catch up with my school work..:)
     
  15. seangoh

    seangoh Veteran

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    Job_38, unfortunately there are many false doctrines going around in christendom...so with regards to such debates, it prolly gives each other a better perspective of the other party.....i call this reasoning with each other.(Isa 1:18) However, i'm aware some get into debates just to bring the other party down and have little motivation to bring ppl to Christ or develop good relationships....this would be the kind of ppl u're referring to. :)
     
  16. undead1

    undead1 Member

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    It is abundantly clear that Paul abolishes the sexes completely. He says that if you become a Christian, you become neither male nor female but a hermaphrodite.

    When did you last fill in an application form? What did you put in the M/F box? You should have put "h" - for hermaphrodite, or "n" for neuter. It you did not do this, you cannot be a Christian.

    (PS: I am trying to appear as stupid to you, as you appear to me. Ever heard of the phrase "one in spirit"? Ever heard that you are born once of flesh and once of the spirit? How can you confuse the spirit and the flesh like this? Do you understand what it is to be a Christian?)
     
  17. seebs

    seebs God Made Me A Skeptic

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    I think he understands rather well.

    As you say, Paul is talking about spirit, not flesh.

    But then, ministry and leadership are of the spirit, not of the flesh, so the gender of your physical body hardly matters; what matters is your spirit, and in spirit, there is neither male nor female.

    You've done a good job of showing precisely why this passage indeed abolishes any distinction in the church between men's and women's roles.
     
  18. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson I Like Traffic Lights

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    Okay - now I will refute what Cougan spells out in his first post.

    Yet, your theology dictates that somehow man is "allowed" to teach women, and not vice versa. How can this be not construed as better?

    Agreed.

    And let us examine that by looking at your (Jackson's?) post.

    Just as they were asked to honor their father.

    They are also to love them "as their own bodies," "as CHrist does the church," and "as he loves himself." This was the first time in humanity a&nbsp;religion had the audacity to say such&nbsp;a thing,&nbsp;

    Irrelevant, other than trying to show that you care about women.

    Let us examine this!

    First let us agree that I Corinthians 11:2-16 is set up in the following manner: INtroduction (v.2), RIght attitude (v.3), right attire (v.4-7), then back to right attitude (v.8-12), right attire again (v.13-14), and then conclusion (v.16). The attitudes are principles that guide all behaviour for all Christians everywhere. Right attire refers to their society - for 1st Century Corinth.

    I maintain that the word kephale means "head." We read the word "head" and interpret it to mean "head' as in "head of a department." We see it as having some kind of authority. Liddell and Scott list 48 meanings of kephale, and not one of them says, "leader,' "authority," "first" or "supreme." (Payne.) Looking at the contemporary uses of the word "kephale," we see tha the literature constantly uses the term for "source," since the ancients' believed that semen, the source of life, was produced in th male brain, which is, of course, locared in the head. Aristotle came up with this idea and it was believed for many generations afterward.

    Kephale was the word used for the source of a rivier. We still maintain this usage in the word "headwaters." Thus, the case can be made, and made well, that instead of a reading such as this:

    "Now I want to you realize that the leader of every man is&nbsp;Christ, and the leader of a woman is the man, and the authority of CHrist is God."

    ... a better rendition should be...

    "Now I want to realize that the source/origen of every man is Christ, and the source/origen of a woman is the man, and the source/origin of Christ is God."

    Now, we need to understand who "the man" is. Verses 8 and 9 explain to us what verse 3 means - the man is Adam. "For man did not come from woman, but woman from man; neither was man created for woman, but woman for man."

    This fits perfectly with the Genesis account and the rest of the I Corinthians passage. The use of leader doesn't work, as it contradicts the idea that not all men have Christ as their leader. And are all men leaders of all women?

    So, in a, what I believe is a correct rendition, Christ was the origen of every man, Adam was the source of the woman, and God was the source of Christ (since in time, the Word became flesh and dwelt among us - this does not deny the pre-existence of Christ). In 15:47 of the letter, Paul calls Adam the first man and Christ the second man.

    This was agreed to by Cyril of Alexandria around 450 A.D. "Thus we say that the kephale of every man is Christ, because he was made through him and broight forward to birth. And the kephale of woman is man, because she was taken from his flesh and has him as her source. Likewise, the kephale of Christ is God, because He is from Him according to nature. (De Recte Fide ad Arcadiam et Marinam)"

    And, the last thing to understand is that Christ is equal to God. The Bible is clear that the Father always commends the Son, and works through the Spirit, and the Spirit always points to the Son and does what the Father says. Athanasius, around 325, said that "'head' must be understood as source rather than 'boss' lest one arrive at a faulty understanding of the Trinity.

    Phew!

    &nbsp;
     
  19. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson I Like Traffic Lights

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    So why does this equality not go out to the gifts of the Spirit? If they are seen the same in Christ, as you argue, why stop at salvation?

    Okay - next passage.

    I maintain that this passage in I Timothy moves from speaking to and about different groups. I Timothy 2:1-7 speaks to all believes. Verse 8 is for the men. 8-10 are to the women. 11-15a is to a woman (note the change from the plural to the singular), and 15b goes back to the plural, so it is meant for all the women.

    First, we have to understand what the previous words says. Ephesus was a moral wasteland. The church was in serious trouble. Paul says that this was a time of great opportunity - a time to pray. He gives them four different words for prayer in verse 2:2. No one is excuded from making such prayers. Of interest is Paul's use of the word for quiet - "hesuchios" which we will see again. Paul urged prayer not just so that believers could live peacable lives, but becayse they should feel what God feels and want what He wants.

    Next thing to note: Paul uses the word anthropos (the gender-inclusive word meaning "person" or "human" for the first seven verses. As someone who I assume is an Arminian, I am sure Cougan would agree that God wants all people to be saved - this is the core of the gospel message.

    In verse 8, Timothy uses aner, so this is specific. They were to pray without anger or disputing.

    The next two verses deal with the entire woman population: Paul wanted them to dress modestly, with decency and propriaty, but with good deeds. (This brings up the question - do people wear jewelry in your church? Is this not wrong according to this passage?) He connects the two sentences with the word "likewise" (hosautos ), showing not that they are different, but that they are the same. Paul wanted both of them to pray and live lives that were separate from the rest of the culture.

    Next, we come to the passage in question. Paul specifically states this:

    The woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit the woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent. For Adam was formed first, then Eve. And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner. But she will be saved through childbearing--if they continue in faith, love and holiness with propriety.

    Note that verse 15, especially says "she" and not "they!" The context suggests strongly that Paul had a certain person in mind! Paul did this in Titus as well - calls out an unnamed person causing dissention.

    In fact, reading the passage, we do not see any command of this being applied to all women - only this one, singular woman, who was spreading heresy in the church!

    And with the assumption that I Timothy 2 taken out of the running, we can see that women most certainly can assume the position of teacher, just as Priscilla did with Apollos.

    Paul uses diakonos only when referring to deacons, specifically. He counts himself as a deacon in Philippians 1:1, and the Timothy passage specifically refers to the position of deacon. Nevertheless, the same word is used as the other times Paul refers to deacons and ministers.

    No, the Lord exercised authority of Paul. It's clear in II Timothy 4:17 - in the same way Phoebe did the same for her church.

    Prostasis is only mentioned once in the NT - "Helper" is much to weak for the translation - "Servant-leader" comes closer, but there is not a strong enough equivalent in our language. In contemporary literaure, prostasis is used to describe the nobest, most gracious, and benefical rulers. Emporers, kinds, ogvernors, and other officials were also referred to by this word. Only one person is called this high name - Phoebe, who influenced even Paul with her leadership.

    I am going to assume that you are referring to Timothy 3:1-2. The important part to read are the first few words. "If anyone" desires. He does not specifically say "man" with the word aner, as he does all throughout his letter. Thus, we can conclude that Paul is referring to if any man or woman desires the office of a bishop, correct? I would also maintain that we understand that the next verse be understood to prevent bishops from having more than one wife. Consider all of the single and widowed ministers in the church. Should they be unallowed to minister, due to their being single? Common sense, and plain reading, show that women are not being excluded in this case. Same for the passage in Titus 1.

    See the above quotes I used before. There is no record in any literature that Junias was a male's name. None at all! While there are a multitide of Junia's. Therefore - we must conclude that Junia was a woman. A good summary of the ancient literature is http://www.womenpriests.org/classic/brooten.htm - Another interesting Origen quote: "This text (1 Tim 3:11) teaches with the authority of the apostle that even women are instituted deacons in the church." (Swidler, p.310).

    Verse 4, I rejoiced greatly that I found of thy children walking in truth, as we have received a commandment from the Father. - John commens her "children." Verse 5, "And now I beseech thee, lady, not as though I wrote a new commandment unto thee, but that which we had from the beginning, that we love one another." Can we not see that she was indeed an elder of the church. (I agree that in verse 1, John calls himself an "elder," but the remainder of the book shows that the woman was the head of the church, or at least one of the leaders.)
     
  20. ScottEmerson

    ScottEmerson I Like Traffic Lights

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    Both of these have been answered.

    And this argument falls, if the other two assumptions fall - I have showed where they are incorrect.

    See above. Christ was not created, but He is the Son of God.

    And subjection is not even referred to in either way - it means "source" or "origen."

    So? What does being created first have to do with them not being leaders? An old Jewish quote said,"if a man's mind becomes proud, he may be reminded that the gnats preceded him in the order of creation."

    "a helper suitable" - 'ezer keneged. E'zer does NOT mean a subservient peon, but a more capable, more powerful, and more intelligent ally. 'ezer is used often when talking about God! (All of my help cometh from the Lord) The next word is keneged - which means equal! (Freedman) So can we dispense this?

    So you don't see them as equal as you did in your first paragraph?

    Oh, please! Where was Adam during all of Eve's tempting? He was with her - she "gave some to her husband, who wsa with her, and he ate it." Sin came through the couple - not just Eve. Both were participants, and both suffered the consequences.

    See the meaning of kephale to understand what 'head' means.

    I think the rest of your post is answered by what i have previously written. I will tackle your other post, then await your rebuttal.
     
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