Women in church

[SkyWriting]

If it was a localized problem Paul was addressing, I wonder why it was canonized.

Because men liked what he said?

 

[SkyWriting]

A man never has the right to claim authority over his wife per Eph 5:22, or else she also has the authority to make sure he drops dead in Eph 5:25!

Or to request it vocally.

 

[Robin Mauro]

I am puzzled by what Paul says in 1 Corinthians, as I have been to churches where women can speak.

1 Corinthians 14:34-35

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

I used to be confused and disturbed by this scripture (still am a bit), plus other things Paul said regarding women, but then I heard someone say Paul was speaking to a specific group of women who were being disrespectful during services, and that made sense to me; he WAS addressing a specific church after all.
Then, later, I was going to a small church, and the Pastor's wife began arguing with the Pastor about tithing, from the pew, during his sermon. It was completely innapropriate and I immediately thought of this scripture.
But I also suspect Paul had a little hatred for women, a little misogyny going on, and I wonder if that's what the thorn in his flesh was: his sexual desire for them, while intentionally remaining single. I know of no men with no sexual desire, and suspect this must've been a struggle for him.
I can't wait to ask him someday.
Also, many of the things he wrote concerning women seem to contradict other things he wrote...there is no Greek or Jew, male ot female, for instance.
Also, other scriptures say, in the last days the women will prophecy (where are they going to do this if not in church?) and there were women propheteses in the old testament, Abraham consulted Sara after God told him to do something and God was apparently cool with that (I see a deep respect for women coming from Abraham and Jacob), and one of my favorite verses in the Bible is " A woman shall compass a man." I think that one is about the women's lib movement.
Misogyny has been rampant throughout history in almost every culture and religion, and I do not believe God has ever been hapoy about it, and he told of a day when women would be equal to men, and that is this time we are living in now, not that we've overcome inequality in it's entirety. We haven't, but we are steadily heading in that direction.
Good topic!

 

[Emmylouwho]

I used to be confused and disturbed by this scripture (still am a bit), plus other things Paul said regarding women, but then I heard someone say Paul was speaking to a specific group of women who were being disrespectful during services, and that made sense to me; he WAS addressing a specific church after all.
Then, later, I was going to a small church, and the Pastor's wife began arguing with the Pastor about tithing, from the pew, during his sermon. It was completely innapropriate and I immediately thought of this scripture.
But I also suspect Paul had a little hatred for women, a little misogyny going on, and I wonder if that's what the thorn in his flesh was: his sexual desire for them, while intentionally remaining single. I know of no men with no sexual desire, and suspect this must've been a struggle for him.
I can't wait to ask him someday.
Also, many of the things he wrote concerning women seem to contradict other things he wrote...there is no Greek or Jew, male ot female, for instance.
Also, other scriptures say, in the last days the women will prophecy (where are they going to do this if not in church?) and there were women propheteses in the old testament, Abraham consulted Sara after God told him to do something and God was apparently cool with that (I see a deep respect for women coming from Abraham and Jacob), and one of my favorite verses in the Bible is " A woman shall compass a man." I think that one is about the women's lib movement.
Misogyny has been rampant throughout history in almost every culture and religion, and I do not believe God has ever been hapoy about it, and he told of a day when women would be equal to men, and that is this time we are living in now, not that we've overcome inequality in it's entirety. We haven't, but we are steadily heading in that direction.
Good topic!

Like I said, if this was a local problem, why was it included in the canon?

 

[Robin Mauro]

Like I said, if this was a local problem, why was it included in the canon?

Lots of specific problems are included in the Bible, and they don't always apply to every person at all times.

 

[Emmylouwho]

Lots of specific problems are included in the Bible, and they don't always apply to every person at all times.

Such as?

 

[Emmylouwho]

Lots of specific problems are included in the Bible, and they don't always apply to every person at all times.

Maybe ALL of 1 Corinthians was only applicable to the Corinthians?

 

[Halbhh]

I am puzzled by what Paul says in 1 Corinthians, as I have been to churches where women can speak.

1 Corinthians 14:34-35

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

It's like 1rst Corinthians chapter 8 (and Romans chapter 14) -- in any given time and place and culture, it can sometimes be necessary for believers to give up perfectly ok freedoms for the sake of the "weak" among us that cannot handle seeing us do those freedoms. We do it for their sake, for that time, as they need, so that their souls will not be lost into the Lake of Fire.

Modern hypothetical (imagined) example: if a new convert previous-Muslim couple joined your church and dressed very conservatively, with his wife wearing a hair covering, and him clearly scandalized by your women that did not cover their hair....then...(here's the hard part for some)...it would be necessary, in that church, for that time, temporarily, for all of the women to cover their hair, in order that the souls of these new converts, weak in their faith, not be lost for eternity, but instead saved.
(this is an imagined scenario, which might be rare or even hardly ever happen, but it does represent real world people, and how we are in real life, in that things trip us up that should not trip us up)

At least until they begin to realize some of their new freedom in Christ, and grow stronger in their faith, so that they can handle normal American styles of exposed hair.

But down the street, in church B, where no one was having trouble with exposed hair, it would be perfectly fine for hair to be uncovered.

------
See also: 1 Corinthians 11:6 If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off. And if it is shameful for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. -- again, another needed concession at that time and place to that local culture. The new freedom in Christ was not a license to do anything even if it destroys some of those who are "weak".

 

[Emmylouwho]

It's like 1rst Corinthians chapter 8 (and Romans chapter 14) -- in any given time and place and culture, it can sometimes be necessary for believers to give up perfectly ok freedoms for the sake of the "weak" among us that cannot handle seeing us do those freedoms. We do it for their sake, for that time, as they need, so that their souls will not be lost into the Lake of Fire.

Modern example: if a new convert previous-Muslim couple joined your church and dressed very conservatively, with his wife wearing a hair covering, and him clearly scandalized by your women that did not cover their hair....then...(here's the hard part for some)...it would be necessary, in that church, for that time, temporarily, for all of the women to cover their hair, in order that the souls of these new converts, weak in their faith, not be lost for eternity, but instead saved.

At least until they begin to realize some of their new freedom in Christ, and grow stronger in their faith, so that they can handle normal American styles of exposed hair.

But down the street, in church B, where no one was having trouble with exposed hair, it would be perfectly fine for hair to be uncovered.

------
See also: 1 Corinthians 11:6 If a woman does not cover her head, she should have her hair cut off. And if it is shameful for a woman to have her hair cut or shaved off, she should cover her head. -- again, another needed concession at that time and place to that local culture. The new freedom in Christ was not a license to do anything even if it destroys some of those who are "weak".

What church did that hair-covering modern example happen at?

 

[Halbhh]

What church did that hair-covering modern example happen at?

I was imagining a possible situation. Lemme see if I can think of a situation I've seen instead. .... Ah, this one is old, but when I was young, my grandparents' church was one in which everyone was to dress 'nicely' and I remember once my uncle brought home a friend to their house who had long hair, and my grandfather left the house to walk for about an hour or more to where he worked, so as to avoid the long-haired young man. Now, if some deacon of the church had long hair, I think it would have driven my grandfather away, possibly harming his faith; or if instead young men attended with long hair, I think possibly it could have tripped my grandfather into serious sinning by judging them in a condemning way instead of accepting them in brotherly love, possibly. It's hard for us modern Americans to imagine examples of this really.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Unless you are a woman, then it's ok...

Esp in marriage it is not ok to fight and argue. A house divided against itself can not stand. The husband and wife are to be united in agreement with each other.

 

[topher694]

Esp in marriage it is not ok to fight and argue. A house divided against itself can not stand. The husband and wife are to be united in agreement with each other.

 

[Emmylouwho]

I was imagining a possible situation. Lemme see if I can think of a situation I've seen instead. .... Ah, this one is old, but when I was young, my grandparents' church was one in which everyone was to dress 'nicely' and I remember once my uncle brought home a friend to their house who had long hair, and my grandfather left the house to walk for about an hour or more to where he worked, so as to avoid the long-haired young man. Now, if some deacon of the church had long hair, I think it would have driven my grandfather away, possibly harming his faith; or if instead young men attended with long hair, I think possibly it could have tripped my grandfather into serious sinning by judging them in a condemning way instead of accepting them in brotherly love, possibly. It's hard for us modern Americans to imagine examples of this really.

In your original made-up “modern example,” the entire congregation conformed to the sensibilities of ex-Muslims who apparently were new not only to Christianity, but to the secular world as well.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Maybe ALL of 1 Corinthians was only applicable to the Corinthians?

First we look at the fact that the letters Paul wrote were for the Corinthians. Then we look at how they apply to us today in our time and in our generation. Just like first we look at the literal understanding, then we look at the hidden wisdom, knowledge and understanding.

Colossians 1:26
"the mystery that was hidden for ages and generations but is now revealed to His saints"

1 Corinthians 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

 

[Emmylouwho]

First we look at the fact that the letters Paul wrote were for the Corinthians. Then we look at how they apply to us today in our time and in our generation. Just like first we look at the literal understanding, then we look at the hidden wisdom, knowledge and understanding.

Colossians 1:26
"the mystery that was hidden for ages and generations but is now revealed to His saints"

1 Corinthians 2:7
But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory:

My theory is: I’m not a Corinthian. I don’t need this book.

 

[Robin Mauro]

Well, I

Such as?

Well, I'm thinking of ways the Bible seems to contradict itself, like the things I mentioned, and others like "Thou shalt not kill" and "There is a time to kill" Ecclesiastes. And yet both are true. It takes discernment because there are different appropriate responses to different situations.
To me, the verses about equality are just as valid as when Paul told women not to speak, so it leads me to think there was a specific situation Paul was addressing when he said that.
And when he said "I don't allow a woman to teach" he specified I, that it was HIS view, not Gods, and obviiously there was some debate about it going on, from the way he phrased it. And we know the apostles had disagreements. That is a part of cannon too.
But let me think and pray on it some more. Like I said, it is a good topic, one many women struggle with; and men too. I've seen some men take scripture and twist it into disrepect for women, like their thoughts and feelings don't matter, but they do, and God wants men to love their wives as Christ loves the church.
What is your thinkng on the matter?

 

[Emmylouwho]

I’ve decided to dismiss the entire book. I’m not a Corinthian; that’s someone else’s mail. I do like silent churches, though.

 

[joshua 1 9]

My theory is: I’m not a Corinthian. I don’t need this book.

Paul wrote: "But I am afraid that just as Eve was deceived by the serpent's cunning, your minds may somehow be led astray from your sincere and pure devotion to Christ." (2cor11:3) We read about Adam & Eve & the serpent in Genesis chapter 3. Paul is offering to help us to understand what we are reading in Genesis chapter 3. You can try to figure that out on your own if you want. I like to study the Hebrew language because that goes a very long way to help us understand the story we are reading. But I still need teachers to help me learn the Hebrew Language. This is why I brought up the word "Helper" and how that may apply to us today. But people do not want to talk about that. What do you think Moses means when we are told that Adam would "rule" over Eve?

Genesis 3:16 To the woman he said,

“I will make your pains in childbearing very severe;
with painful labor you will give birth to children.
Your desire will be for your husband,
and he will rule over you.”

Women, however, will be saved through childbearing, if they continue in faith, love, and holiness, with self-control. (1Timothy2:15)

In the same way we can read the sermon on the mount or the book of Matthew to receive a lot of the teaching from Jesus. If you want to disregard Paul because we do not understand what he is talking about.

 

[miggles]

maybe he meant idle chit chat in church. men usually sit quietly while their wives chatter away with someone next to them. everyone should sit quietly in church, men and women.

 

[joshua 1 9]

I've seen some men take scripture and twist it into disrepect for women

There really is nothing more clear then that the Husband is to be type of Christ and that he is to sacrifice himself for his wife the way Jesus died for His Bride. Yet no one wants to talk about how Jesus came to serve. He did not come to the Earth to be served. If we want to be great in the Kingdom of God then we are to be a servant to all. Those who are humble before God will be lifted up.