Women in church

[NeedyFollower]

I am puzzled by what Paul says in 1 Corinthians, as I have been to churches where women can speak.

1 Corinthians 14:34-35

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

Hi Sister ...men will have one interpretation of this and women another . Jesus demonstrated the most powerful force in the whole world when he demonstrated his submission to the will of the Father , even death on a cross . Men always want the woman to be submitted to them according to scripture but maybe never out of love . The letter killeth but the spirit gives life . We are told to be submitted one to another in LOVE . This is a demonstration and a condemnation to the fallen angels who rebelled against God and were self-willed . Rebellion is in our old nature and while this may make many people angry , I believe it to be true . Women have a lot of power over men because of our carnal nature . Women also by nature having a nurturing and nesting instinct which may make them more susceptible to making this world our home ( verses being the strangers and pilgrims we are called to be . ) That is what Paul was speaking of regarding Adam and Eve . ( Eve being in the first transgression and Adam naturally followed suit . ) This is a NOT a condemnation of the woman but rather a reproof of men who do not love their wives . This is also a reproof of men who wish their wives to be submitted but they themselves are not a servant to their wives .
Paul set that in order to guard against the carnal nature running things in the church . Paul's answer in verses 36 , 37 and 38 were to the "Super Apostles " in Corinth who knew everything but actually knew nothing about which they spoke .
But truly the whole of chapter 14 lays out the order of the church . Women were allowed to prophecy with the head covered ( because of the angels ) but in the power of submission .

 

[topher694]

That was a good attempt to try to "super-spiritualize" your position as opposed to my "win or lose" style of argument, but the truth is that sound doctrine is something to be won or lost, not hand waved. What I find interesting is that you frame this situation as a dichotomy between establishing biblical truth or saving the lost. The only way such a dichotomy can exist is if, negatively (as in, negate-ively, not the emotional connotation), it is presented to a person who says, "If these gender roles are actually biblical I will not follow this Christ" (in which case they are already not following Christ). Otherwise, positively, it was not intended as a gospel presentation to begin with and the subject is not the gospel, but women in church. So your false dichotomy fails to oppose my "win or lose" approach to this doctrine with soteriology and relevant presentations. Neither does the fact that it is not immediately essential for someone receiving salvation negate its importance for Christian living on many levels.

There's nothing "super-spiritualized" about winning souls and setting people free. You can deflect all you want. Arguing is not fruit. In my experience those that try to deflect from real actual fruit do so because there is little in their own lives.

 

[Strong in Him]

I am puzzled because I have heard women speak in church when the Bible says not to. Why do they do that?

Possibly because they don't take odd verses out of context, but read in Scripture of people like Miriam, Deborah, Huldah, the Samaritan woman at the well, Mary Magdalene etc who all spoke God's word to others, gave prophesies etc - see Miriam's song of praise in Exodus 15, and Deborah's in Judges 5. People will no doubt point out that neither of these was in church - but WE are the church; God's people. When there have been worship services in the Bible, and gatherings of God's people, women have had a part to play.
Paul had already said in 1 Corinthians 11 that women could pray and prophesy, and it is unthinkable that Paul would not have allowed women to worship God, so it is unlikely that his phrase "speak in church" means "do not let women worship, prophesy or read the Scriptures." So he meant something else - probably, as I said before, that women should not interrupt to ask questions actually during the service but should ask their husbands at home, 1 Corinthians 14:35.

 

[Thir7ySev3n]

There's nothing "super-spiritualized" about winning souls and setting people free. You can deflect all you want. Arguing is not fruit. In my experience those that try to deflect from real actual fruit do so because there is little in their own lives.

Speaking of deflection, I noticed you ignored the rest of the point. So here's the rest of that again:

What I find interesting is that you frame this situation as a dichotomy between establishing biblical truth or saving the lost. The only way such a dichotomy can exist is if, negatively (as in, negate-ively, not the emotional connotation), it is presented to a person who says, "If these gender roles are actually biblical I will not follow this Christ" (in which case they are already not following Christ). Otherwise, positively, it was not intended as a gospel presentation to begin with and the subject is not the gospel, but women in church. So your false dichotomy fails to oppose my "win or lose" approach to this doctrine with soteriology and relevant presentations. Neither does the fact that it is not immediately essential for someone receiving salvation negate its importance for Christian living on many levels.

 

[topher694]

Speaking of deflection, I noticed you ignored the rest of the point. So here's the rest of that again:

What I find interesting is that you frame this situation as a dichotomy between establishing biblical truth or saving the lost. The only way such a dichotomy can exist is if, negatively (as in, negate-ively, not the emotional connotation), it is presented to a person who says, "If these gender roles are actually biblical I will not follow this Christ" (in which case they are already not following Christ). Otherwise, positively, it was not intended as a gospel presentation to begin with and the subject is not the gospel, but women in church. So your false dichotomy fails to oppose my "win or lose" approach to this doctrine with soteriology and relevant presentations. Neither does the fact that it is not immediately essential for someone receiving salvation negate its importance for Christian living on many levels.

Is there a question in there I was supposed to respond to?

I pretty much reject the entire premise you outlined if that helps. I didn't see you addressing any relevant presentations I have made... but I'm not really interested in hearing it anyway.

To be clear, I utterly reject your declaration of "winning". I tried to bring a bit of levity, which was lost and twisted, so be it. I've heard this declaration time and time again during discussions of this type all it does is show wrong motives and heart. I got a letter just this week from someone who had been suicidal and is quite literally alive today because of a woman minister. That is my motivation. That is winning.

 

[Isilwen]

I got a letter just this week from someone who had been suicidal and is quite literally alive today because of a woman minister. That is my motivation. That is winning.

That's awesome and wonderful!

 

[Blade]

Do you sit on one side while the women on the other? Tell them to keep there head covered? Shall we keep going? Gee what was that word he used.. "LAW". Been in churches that if you a man wanted prayer only men could pray for you.

Were talking about things that happen over two thousand years ago. I am sure everything we do today.. they didn't do then. How did they treat women before Jesus left? What.. you think lol it was going change the next day? Some countries today treat women the same as they did back then. GOD does not. Paul was talking to a group that was having problems. All the other disciples had a say..

 

[joshua 1 9]

Were your teachers men or women?

Mostly men, but for teacher training it was a women. She is also the Sunday School superintendent for the church. This was why I left. If a man submits to the authority of a women like that then he takes on the status of a child. There was a girl in the class that approached her about a statement I made about the rapture. So she turned it over to the pastor to talk to me. His statement to me was something along the line of: I hear you believe different then we do. So that means I was accused of something that they felt I should have to defend myself for. I can understand having to defend myself with infidels, but not with our church family.

 

[Isilwen]

If a man submits to the authority of a women like that then he takes on the status of a child.

Do you realize how insulting to men like me that statement is?

I am no child, not by a long shot.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Were talking about things that happen over two thousand years ago.

Paul was writing to them at the time. I was caught up to Heaven once to talk to Paul. I was given something like 12 seconds of his time. He wanted to know how our generation was receiving the letters he wrote. He let me know that we are to be living free from sin. He knew he was writing to us today but he did not know how we would receive what he wrote.

"His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction." (2Peter3:16)

 

[joshua 1 9]

Do you realize how insulting to men like me that statement is?

About as much as you realize how much I was insulted by the whole situation. Good you are able to know how I felt and why I left that situation.

 

[Isilwen]

About as much as you realize how much I was insulted by the whole situation. Good you are able to know how I felt and why I left that situation.

Not even close.

It sounds like the pastor was asking a question to start a dialogue, not to put you on the defensive. Most churches want the congregants to believe the same things, especially in matters of core doctrine.

 

[topher694]

Do you realize how insulting to men like me that statement is?

I am no child, not by a long shot.

The only one he is insulting is himself, he just doesn't realize it.

 

[joshua 1 9]

Most churches want the congregants to believe the same things, especially in matters of core doctrine.

I am not a member of the church. I would not join a church under those conditions. The Holy Spirit of God is to be our Guide and our Teacher. Sooner or later man is going to let us down.

 

[miggles]

I am puzzled by what Paul says in 1 Corinthians, as I have been to churches where women can speak.

1 Corinthians 14:34-35

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

kinda runs counter to today's political correctness, huh?

 

[joshua 1 9]

The only one he is insulting is himself, he just doesn't realize it.

"If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other." Gal 5:15

 

[Isilwen]

I am not a member of the church. I would not join a church under those conditions. The Holy Spirit of God is to be our Guide and our Teacher. Sooner or later man is going to let us down.

Ephesians 4:11-16 New King James Version (NKJV)
11 And He Himself gave some to be apostles, some prophets, some evangelists, and some pastors and teachers, 12 for the equipping of the saints for the work of ministry, for the a]">[a]edifying of the body of Christ, 13 till we all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the Son of God, to a perfect man, to the measure of the stature of the fullness of Christ; 14 that we should no longer be children, tossed to and fro and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the trickery of men, in the cunning craftiness of deceitful plotting, 15 but, speaking the truth in love, may grow up in all things into Him who is the head—Christ— 16 from whom the whole body, joined and knit together by what every joint supplies, according to the effective working by which every part does its share, causes growth of the body for the edifying of itself in love.

 

[Emmylouwho]

Do you sit on one side while the women on the other? Tell them to keep there head covered? Shall we keep going? Gee what was that word he used.. "LAW". Been in churches that if you a man wanted prayer only men could pray for you.

Were talking about things that happen over two thousand years ago. I am sure everything we do today.. they didn't do then. How did they treat women before Jesus left? What.. you think lol it was going change the next day? Some countries today treat women the same as they did back then. GOD does not. Paul was talking to a group that was having problems. All the other disciples had a say..

If it was a localized problem Paul was addressing, I wonder why it was canonized.

 

[topher694]

"If you bite and devour each other, watch out or you will be destroyed by each other." Gal 5:15

Unless you are a woman, then it's ok...

 

[SkyWriting]

I am puzzled by what Paul says in 1 Corinthians, as I have been to churches where women can speak.

1 Corinthians 14:34-35

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

At the time there was a female cult that was troublesome.
There is little evidence Paul intended his letters to be scripture.