Women in church

[Emmylouwho]

I am puzzled by what Paul says in 1 Corinthians, as I have been to churches where women can speak.

1 Corinthians 14:34-35

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

 

[archer75]

You'll find that this passage is either ignored or interpreted in various ways.

 

[RaymondG]

He could be referring to the woman that was separated from the man in the beginning........and not males and females. Once you leave mother and father, Cleave unto the wife and become one flesh again.....this verse will not apply.

 

[Emmylouwho]

He could be referring to the woman that was separated from the man in the beginning........and not males and females. Once you leave mother and father, Cleave unto the wife and become one flesh again.....this verse will not apply.

Can you rephrase that? I have no idea what you just said.

 

[Endeavourer]

Hi Emmylou.

The law being referenced in v. 34-35 is not God's law but is a quote from the Pharisaical writings that they made into laws. Verses 36 and further give Paul's response to his quote of the Pharisaical law.

Many have gravely misunderstood this passage to be Paul saying the words in 34, 35. Paul is just quoting the Pharisees there to refute them in the following verses.

If you do some research you will find the words of verses 34 & 35 in the Talmud Law (the Pharisaical writings), but not the Torah Law (the Old Testament writings given by God).

 

[Endeavourer]

Most people have not done the research I mentioned above, so they hold to verses 34 & 35 as God's own edict with a vice grip. Yet, no one who takes that position can explain what verse 36 means, which clearly is contradicting Paul's recitation in verses 34 & 35.

 

[Handmaid for Jesus]

Peopl usually read and apply the first half of the verse to censure women in the church. But, if they read and rightly divide the whole verse they will get a better understanding. Grace vs law is applied here but most do not recognize it.

1 Corinthians 14:34-35

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the LAW.

35 And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

We are under grace not under law any longer. Jesus was first to give women something to say. The woman at the well evangelized her whole town.

 

[joshua 1 9]

34 Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience as also saith the law.

Paul makes this a little more clear in 1Timothy2:12 "I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet." The word authority in the Hebrew means head or leader. In the wilderness they followed smoke by day and fire by night so no one would get lost in the wilderness. Younger women have authority over the children and older women have authority over the younger women. If you put women in charge of the men and men in charge of the children then that is a recipe for disaster. Paul explans (2:14) "And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression."

Genesis 2:18 "And the LORD God said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.” We are told that Eve was to be a "helper comparable". The middle letter in the Hebrew word for "Helper" is a weapon. This leads Dr Seekin to believe that the word means ally. Eve is to be allied with Adam. They are to fight the enemy together. He does not see women as being subservant but as equal with the man. The main point is that God made them man and women or male and female. Then they were to be joined together to become one. A house divided can not stand, so they have to be united together as one. The very first letter in the Bible represents a tent. God is head, Jesus is the Son of God, with all the authority of the Father. Yet Jesus came into the world as a Servant. "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." (Mark10:25) In the same way we are to serve others if we want to be great.

"But Jesus called them aside and said, “You know that the rulers of the Gentiles lord it over them, and their superiors exercise authority over them. It shall not be this way among you. Instead, whoever wants to become great among you must be your servant" (Matthew20:25.26)

 

[Endeavourer]

Paul makes this a little more clear in 1Timothy2:12 "I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet."

First of all, Paul did not use the word "authority" in that verse. You are using the ESV, a translation known for biased interpretations.

Look to the root word of 'authority' in that verse; it is not a simple exercise of authority but more of a domineering or violent overtaking. Paul only used authenteo once in his writings, and that was in this verse. He did not use it anywhere else he discussed authority.

831 authentéō (from 846 /autós, "self" and entea, "arms, armor") – properly, to unilaterally take up arms, i.e. acting as an autocrat – literally, self-appointed (acting without submission).

αὐθεντέω, ἀυθέντω; (a Biblical and ecclesiastical word; from αὐθέντης contracted from αὐτοέντης, and this from αὐτός and ἔντεα arms (others, ἑντης, cf. Hesychius συνεντης συνεργός; cf. Lobeck, Technol., p. 121); hence,

a. according to earlier usage, one who with his own hand kills either others or himself.

b. in later Greek writings one who does a thing himself the author" (τῆς πράξεως, Polybius 23, 14, 2, etc.); one who acts on his own authority, autocratic, equivalent to αὐτοκράτωρ an absolute master; cf. Lobeck ad Phryn., p. 120 (also as above; cf. Winers Grammar, § 2, 1 c.)); to govern one, exercise dominion over one: τινς, 1 Timothy 2:12.​

Look to the root work of 'quiet' in verses 11 and 12. It is a form of hésuchia (Strongs 2271), which means peaceable, but not speechless:

Cognate: 2271 hēsyxía (from hēsyxos, "quiet, stillness") – quietness, implying calm; for the believer, 2271 (hēsyxía) is used of their God-produced calm which includes an inner tranquility that supports appropriate action. This term "does not mean speechlessness, which is more directly indicated by 4602 (sigḗ) (J. Thayer). See 2272 (hēsyxios).​

The same word is used in several verses earlier as a similar admonition to all of Christ's body, including the men:

1 Tim 2:
1 I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men;
2 For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable (hésuchios Strongs 2272) life in all godliness and honesty.

2272 hēsýxios (an adjective derived from hēsyxos, "quiet, stillness") – properly, quiet (still), i.e. steady (settled) due to a divinely-inspired inner calmness.
2272/hēsyxios ("calmly quiet") describes being "appropriately tranquil" by not misusing (or overusing) words that would stir up needless friction (destructive commotion).
​

Again, same word is used here:

1 Peter 3: 4 But let it be the hidden man of the heart, in that which is not corruptible, even the ornament of a meek and quiet (hésuchios, Strongs 2272) spirit, which is in the sight of God of great price.
​

And here:

2 Thess 3:12 Now them that are such we command and exhort by our Lord Jesus Christ, that with quietness (hésuchios, Strongs 2272) they work, and eat their own bread.​

Clearly silence (speechlessness) was not in view because the Bible references women participating in prophesies as equally as men:

1 Cor 11:5
Acts 2:16-18

That is the key, isn't it? When you read the book of Acts and look to early church history you will not find the gender doctrines being implemented in many churches today. Men and women who were serving with Paul, and shortly thereafter in the early church, didn't get the memo about women being silent - likely because they were reading Paul's original letters which do not have that instruction.

I can only conclude that a translating bias used "silent" instead of peaceable when it appeared in 1 Tim 2:11, 12 with respect to women, but used peaceable (or similar) in the rest of Paul's writings.

 

[Emmylouwho]

So, basically, although Paul’s words seem straightforward, they actually don’t mean what they seem to mean?

 

[joshua 1 9]

We are under grace not under law any longer.

"For sin shall no longer be your master, because you are not under the law, but under grace."(Romans6:14) Grace MEANS that daily God gives us the power and the strength to overcome sin. The law is no longer our schoolmaster because we have the Holy Spirit of God to be our Guide & our Teacher. To show us the way to righteousness. Because of this we do not need man or women to teach us as we are to be taught by God.

"1For this is the covenant I will make with the house of Israel after those days, declares the Lord. I will put My laws in their minds, and inscribe them on their hearts. And I will be their God, and they will be My people. No longer will each one teach his neighbor or his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ because they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest." (Hebrews8:11)

 

[joshua 1 9]

Paul did not use the word "authority" in that verse.

New International Version
I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

New Living Translation
I do not let women teach men or have authority over them. Let them listen quietly.

English Standard Version
I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

Berean Study Bible
I do not permit a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man; she is to remain quiet.

Berean Literal Bible
But I do not permit a woman to teach, nor to use authority over a man, but to be in quietness.

New American Standard Bible
But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.

New King James Version
And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.

King James Bible
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Christian Standard Bible
I do not allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; instead, she is to remain quiet.

Contemporary English Version
They should be silent and not be allowed to teach or to tell men what to do.

Good News Translation
I do not allow them to teach or to have authority over men; they must keep quiet.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
I do not allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; instead, she is to be silent.

International Standard Version
Moreover, in the area of teaching, I am not allowing a woman to instigate conflict toward a man. Instead, she is to remain calm.

NET Bible
But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man. She must remain quiet.

New Heart English Bible
But I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man, but to be in quietness.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For I do not allow a woman to teach, neither to usurp over a man, but she should be quiet;

GOD'S WORD® Translation
I don't allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. Instead, she should be quiet.

New American Standard 1977
But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.

Jubilee Bible 2000
For I do not allow a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over a mature man, but to be at rest.

King James 2000 Bible
But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have authority over the man, but to be in silence.

American King James Version
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

American Standard Version
But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have dominion over a man, but to be in quietness.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to be in silence.

Darby Bible Translation
but I do not suffer a woman to teach nor to exercise authority over man, but to be in quietness;

English Revised Version
But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have dominion over a man, but to be in quietness.

Webster's Bible Translation
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Weymouth New Testament
I do not permit a woman to teach, nor have authority over a man, but she must remain silent.

 

[Endeavourer]

Genesis 2:18 "And the LORD God said, “It is not good that man should be alone; I will make him a helper comparable to him.” We are told that Eve was to be a "helper comparable". The middle letter in the Hebrew word for "Helper" is a weapon. This leads Dr Seekin to believe that the word means ally. Eve is to be allied with Adam. They are to fight the enemy together. He does not see women as being subservant but as equal with the man. The main point is that God made them man and women or male and female. Then they were to be joined together to become one. A house divided can not stand, so they have to be united together as one. The very first letter in the Bible represents a tent. God is head, Jesus is the Son of God, with all the authority of the Father. Yet Jesus came into the world as a Servant. "For even the Son of Man did not come to be served, but to serve, and to give his life as a ransom for many." (Mark10:25) In the same way we are to serve others if we want to be great.

These are simply your speculations based on word associations.

The word helpmeet is literally, "ezer". Here are other places in the Old Testament where the same word was used:

Psalms 20:2
Send thee help from the sanctuary, and strengthen thee out of Zion;

Psalms 33:20
Our soul waiteth for the LORD: he is our help and our shield.

Psalms 70:5
But I am poor and needy: make haste unto me, O God: thou art my help and my deliverer; O LORD, make no tarrying.

Psalms 89:19
Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people.

Psalms 115:9
O Israel, trust thou in the LORD: he is their help and their shield.

Psalms 115:10
O house of Aaron, trust in the LORD: he is their help and their shield.

Psalms 115:11
Ye that fear the LORD, trust in the LORD: he is their help and their shield.

Psalms 121:1
[A Song of degrees.] I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help.

Psalms 121:2
My help cometh from the LORD, which made heaven and earth.

Psalms 124:8
Our help is in the name of the LORD, who made heaven and earth.

Psalms 146:5
Happy is he that hath the God of Jacob for his help, whose hope is in the LORD his God:

 

[Endeavourer]

New International Version
I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet.

New Living Translation
I do not let women teach men or have authority over them. Let them listen quietly.

English Standard Version
I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man; rather, she is to remain quiet.

Berean Study Bible
I do not permit a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man; she is to remain quiet.

Berean Literal Bible
But I do not permit a woman to teach, nor to use authority over a man, but to be in quietness.

New American Standard Bible
But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.

New King James Version
And I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, but to be in silence.

King James Bible
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Christian Standard Bible
I do not allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; instead, she is to remain quiet.

Contemporary English Version
They should be silent and not be allowed to teach or to tell men what to do.

Good News Translation
I do not allow them to teach or to have authority over men; they must keep quiet.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
I do not allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; instead, she is to be silent.

International Standard Version
Moreover, in the area of teaching, I am not allowing a woman to instigate conflict toward a man. Instead, she is to remain calm.

NET Bible
But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man. She must remain quiet.

New Heart English Bible
But I do not permit a woman to teach or to exercise authority over a man, but to be in quietness.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English
For I do not allow a woman to teach, neither to usurp over a man, but she should be quiet;

GOD'S WORD® Translation
I don't allow a woman to teach or to have authority over a man. Instead, she should be quiet.

New American Standard 1977
But I do not allow a woman to teach or exercise authority over a man, but to remain quiet.

Jubilee Bible 2000
For I do not allow a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over a mature man, but to be at rest.

King James 2000 Bible
But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have authority over the man, but to be in silence.

American King James Version
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

American Standard Version
But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have dominion over a man, but to be in quietness.

Douay-Rheims Bible
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to use authority over the man: but to be in silence.

Darby Bible Translation
but I do not suffer a woman to teach nor to exercise authority over man, but to be in quietness;

English Revised Version
But I permit not a woman to teach, nor to have dominion over a man, but to be in quietness.

Webster's Bible Translation
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

Weymouth New Testament
I do not permit a woman to teach, nor have authority over a man, but she must remain silent.

The most faithful translation for the word authority in this list is this one:

King James Bible
But I suffer not a woman to teach, nor to usurp authority over the man, but to be in silence.

As you will see from the detailed explanation I provided above.

However, as you can also see from the detailed explanation above, they misused the word "silent". The word Paul used specifically did not indicate speechlessness.

 

[joshua 1 9]

So, basically, although Paul’s words seem straightforward, they actually don’t mean what they seem to mean?

"If a kingdom is divided against itself, it cannot stand. If a house is divided against itself, it cannot stand. And if Satan is divided and rises against himself, he cannot stand;" (Mrk3:24-26)

If you want to destroy a church, if you want to destroy a marriage then get the men and women, male and female, masculine and feminine to fight with each other rather then to be united in God's love.

 

[Endeavourer]

If you want to destroy a church, if you want to destroy a marriage then get the men and women, male and female, masculine and feminine to fight with each other rather then to be united in God's love.

And that's what you are doing by usurping authority over the women.

Nowhere does the Bible tell the men to usurp or violently assert authority over anyone, including over the women.

Nowhere does the Bible tell a man to usurp, or even to quietly exercise authority over his wife.

A man never has the right to claim authority over his wife per Eph 5:22, or else she also has the authority to make sure he drops dead in Eph 5:25!

(FYI, Eph 5:22 is also a greatly misunderstood verse.)

 

[RaymondG]

Hi Emmylou.

The law being referenced in v. 34-35 is not God's law but is a quote from the Pharisaical writings that they made into laws. Verses 36 and further give Paul's response to his quote of the Pharisaical law.

Many have gravely misunderstood this passage to be Paul saying the words in 34, 35. Paul is just quoting the Pharisees there to refute them in the following verses.

If you do some research you will find the words of verses 34 & 35 in the Talmud Law (the Pharisaical writings), but not the Torah Law (the Old Testament writings given by God).

The verse means exactly what it says...... No use trying to change it or dismiss it because you do not understand it's meaning. No need finding a better translation to better match your belief..... but instead let the scripture transform your beliefs.

Confusion only arises when we try to figure it out ourselves instead of ask God for wisdom.

 

[joshua 1 9]

The word helpmeet is literally, "ezer".

Yes this is made up of an Ayin - Zayin - Reysh. The last letter Reysh means head or highest person. That is why a women has authority in the home over the children. A good friend of mine comes from a home of 10 sisters and two brother. So in families like this everyone needs to do what they can to raise up the children up in the Lord. My wife only has one so she devotes herself to helping her nephews and nieces. She does everything she can for them. The is way also we can preserve our DNA.

I know that my matriarch had fair skin and freckles. So I know who I share a common matriarch with. Our skin is very sensitive because we share a common gene. This is Scottish but can be Irish also.

 

[Emmylouwho]

These are simply your speculations based on word associations.

The word helpmeet is literally, "ezer". Here are other places in the Old Testament where the same word was used:

Psalms 20:2
Send thee help from the sanctuary, and strengthen thee out of Zion;

Psalms 33:20
Our soul waiteth for the LORD: he is our help and our shield.

Psalms 70:5
But I am poor and needy: make haste unto me, O God: thou art my help and my deliverer; O LORD, make no tarrying.

Psalms 89:19
Then thou spakest in vision to thy holy one, and saidst, I have laid help upon one that is mighty; I have exalted one chosen out of the people.

Psalms 115:9
O Israel, trust thou in the LORD: he is their help and their shield.

Psalms 115:10
O house of Aaron, trust in the LORD: he is their help and their shield.

Psalms 115:11
Ye that fear the LORD, trust in the LORD: he is their help and their shield.

Psalms 121:1
[A Song of degrees.] I will lift up mine eyes unto the hills, from whence cometh my help.

Psalms 121:2
My help cometh from the LORD, which made heaven and earth.

Psalms 124:8
Our help is in the name of the LORD, who made heaven and earth.

Psalms 146:5
Happy is he that hath the God of Jacob for his help, whose hope is in the LORD his God:

We are discussing women in church, not helpers and helpmeets.

 

[joshua 1 9]

And that's what you are doing by usurping authority over the women.

I am not usurping anything. I do not teach in the church even though I took 4 teacher training classes at the Bible college. My job is to be a servant and to help as many people as I can. I have noticed thought that people usually accuse others of what they are guilty of. Or as Matthew 7:2 says as you judge you shall be judged.